Been cheated on a car rebuild - where do I stand please?

[Dr Imran T]

Hello Chaps

I believe I've been cheated on a car rebuild. I've basically paid quite a lot of money for a car to be rebuilt and it turns out the recently 'rebuilt' engine that was installed in my car is in fact tired and old.

I have had a compression test done by a specialist to confirm that the engine is well below par and very tired.

Here's the messy [read careless] part, I paid for all the work to be done through direct bank transfers and did not get any receipts. I do however, have all the transfer details from my bank to the company account and amounts showing.

Where do I stand legally on recovering my money?

Any help much appreciated.

thanks

[Dr Imran T]

I've had a proper test done and have the compression test results. I should add that the engine is not a fresh rebuild and therefore requiring a 'run in' period. The engine had recently been rebuilt and used and then I bought it and had it installed.

me not running it in properly in this case is not applicable.

thanks

[Dr Imran T]

^^ not hugely confidence inspiring that re. the Small claims court My outlay is more than 3.5k.. - how hard is it to make a successful claim?

[Dr Imran T]

^^ OK thanks for your input. I will of course try and resolve this with person in question.

Great advice thus far chaps

[Dr Imran T]

BertBert said:

who did you buy the engine from? Private or trade?

I don't quite understand the sequence of events you are desacribing. Your headline says beewn cheated on car rebuild. Yet I think youyr narrative says you bought an engine and had it installed.

What caused you to be unhappy with it after it had been installed?

Bert

Right - I paid a company to fix my car and I was assured that I was purchasing a recently rebuilt engine from another vehicle [to be installed in mine]. The engine that had been 'recently' rebuilt turns out to be a very tired old engine. Therefore what I was told I was getting [and paid for] and what I actually received are two very different things.

I have also paid for quite a lot of other work to be undertaken on the car and been charged a lot of money... The evidence I have is numerous email exchanges between the company and myself. I also have all the bank transfer details showing monies paid.

To clarify, the car was sent away for the work to be done. Once I got the car back [delivered on flatbed] I drove it for very few miles and it drove terrible. I then sent it away to a local specialist who performed a number of checks on the car and confirmed the engine is not a 'recently' rebuilt engine but in fact a tired old high mileage unit. Compression test confirms this.

[Dr Imran T]

yes, got a breakdown albeit not the most precise - but enough to work out where the money has been spent.

car went in with no MOT. So I paid for a rebuilt engine and other work to get the car running and ready for an MOT.

Approx £2 ~ 2/5k for engine work.

£1700 for other work including getting the car prepared for an MOT and through an MOT.

However, I am VERY surprised this car get through an MOT.

The local specialist [not the one who supplied and fitted the engine] does not think the car has had as much new parts fitted to it as claimed. I should also add when I got the car back the N/S/F brake caliper was binding very badly.

That surprised me considering it just got through an MOT.

[Dr Imran T]

Red Devil said:

Why? If they have shafted you on the engine, then they are probably the sort of company for whom getting a hooky MOT won't be exactly difficult.
If the binding brake caliper was obvious upon driving the car you should have taken it up with the testing station straight away. Absent a satisfactory explanation then I would be escalating it to the DVSA - https://www.gov.uk/getting-an-mot/problems-with-yo...

I didn't get the mot done. The car came back to me on a flatbed with a mot having been done.

I've actually driven the car little due to it be very difficult to drive. It cuts out often and is very lumpy too.

[Dr Imran T]

AngryPartsBloke said:

I have to point out there is a huge difference between an engine that's been rebuilt and engine that's been reconditioned. People quite often confuse the two beliving they are one in the same when they are worlds apart.

What exactley did they offer you and was it the same company that did the rest of the work?

I was offered and paid for a 'good rebuilt' engine not a reconditioned one. The engine had been rebuilt before I bought it. I essentially paid for a used recently rebuilt engine.

Yes, the same company did the rest of the work and got the car ready for MOT as well.

[Dr Imran T]

^^ engine was supplied and fitted by one company [same company that did all the MOT prep etc]. I literally dropped the car off and paid for everything to be done and then got the car delivered back to me.

[Dr Imran T]

Du1point8 said:

Have you given them a chance to 'fix' it all?

what is the time period between you getting the car back and getting it to your own mechanic?

Unlikely that they can fix it - it shouldn't have left their workshop in this condition in the first place. I sent the car off pretty much straight away after I got it back. Car was undriveable and lacklustre in performance.

[Dr Imran T]

Du1point8 said:

In cases like this from what has been put on forums, I believe you have to give them the option to fix it.

If you pay someone else to fix it and go after them for the money without doing that, you will essentially lose the money you paid them and be out the cost of getting it fixed yourself. All down to not giving them the chance to rectify it.

If they turn around and tell you to jog on, then its court time.

Thanks - I'm not paying someone else to fix the car but merely give it a thorough going over. Now that I have a true qualified/expert opinion I have then put these concerns back to the original garage that carried out the work.

That is where I am at the moment.

I am awaiting a response.

[Dr Imran T]

Bert - lets put it this way. The car in question is a very high performance machine. For the sake of anonymity I won't go into too much detail as I hope to resolve this.

The car has now been sent to a genuine specialist who has done every test possible to figure out why the car is running poorly. We are talking about a 300+ BHP car here that is actually very slow.

I was surprised to find out how sluggish this car is.. yes a lot of other 'minor' components are tired and generally don't help the cause - but the biggest factor is the compression is way down.

A very healthy engine is 200psi, an acceptable one in pretty good shape is 185psi. Mine is 135psi across all cylinders - for me to make this car 'healthy' I would be throwing good money after bad. It actually needs to be stripped and the head rebuilt valves etc as well as the bores honed/new piston rings - you get the idea.

The fact that this is not a cheap car that is going to cost thousands more.

[Dr Imran T]

Does it help that I was not expecting a re conditioned engine? I had agreed that engine to be installed was a very strong unit that had been rebuilt. One would not expect a rebuilt engine to be that much down on compression though surely.

Besides the low compression other components such as plugs/leads and sensors etc were really very tired/perished. One of the sensor was very badly deteriorated and had actually burnt out.

This is not what even a layman would class a a 'good' recently rebuilt engine.

[Dr Imran T]

Cerberaherts said:

I suspect your plugs, leads and the sensor issue are more the cause of your running concerns rather than the compression being low. It takes virtually a loss of compression to make an engine run rough. Worn engines can run fine for years as long as the compressions are even across the bank. This obviously doesn't excuse the fact that the compressions are lower than expected on a rebuilt engine.

I would disagree. I can easily swap plugs/leads, however the engine is gutless. no matter how many components I replace the engine is fundamentally compromised.

It will never perform as it should. Like I said there is a difference between a very healthy engine, then one with good compression - mine however falls well below good compression.

If I replaced all the worn components, what will I be left with? a sub standard engine in my view.

[Dr Imran T]

andycaca said:

135psi across all cylinders isnt too bad. maye its something simple like the cam timing being out by a tooth.
my "very high performance machine" once had the timing out by one tooth and the 450bhp felt more like my wife's 900cc corsa!

hopefully its not all doom and gloom, give them the change to fix it. and document everything via email or letterheaded paper. if it does all go tits up you want a leg to stand on

it was out a tooth actually on the exhaust cam. Now rectified, the compression is still much the same. The car I should add is now in the most capable hands - so the feedback report from the current garage is the bottom line.

[Dr Imran T]

littleredrooster said:

Disagree. If it's supposed to be in the range 185-200, then 135 suggests major work is needed to valves, rings/bores or both.

Running at c.65% of its design figure is not going to produce good performance!

that's exactly what I said. Plus all the people I have spoke to with regards this specific engine confirm the same.

[Dr Imran T]

it's a pretty highly strung NA 6 cylinder - thus high/strong compression is key.

I do not want to go into too much detail as to reveal who is doing the works etc and I am in the process of resolving this.

[Dr Imran T]

The Surveyor said:

Am I the only one who doesn't understand a few key areas here.

If I was running a tuned, high performance engine and it became sick, I wouldn't just leave it with somebody I've never had dealings with and only communicated by email and bank transfer, and certainly wouldn't agree to just dropping in an untested engine including crappy plugs and leads etc without any comeback. Did they give you any indication of what would happen if this salvage engine turned out to be a lemon?

Also, if I'd paid for work that I wasn't happy with to the point that the car wouldn't drive, why didn't you simply send it back to them to sort? That replacement engine may not be as good as you, or even they expected, but it seams strange not to let them look at it. How are you now going to prove that it wasn't running fine when they dropped it off?

Finally, if you have an expert on hand who's skilled with these high performance cars etc, why didn't you let them sort it in originally, with a proper rebuild of your original engine.

There is a perfectly good explanation, why I wasn't able to use the local chap. Also the company I went with was very highly recommended and well regarded. it wasn't a blind risk what I did.

I will of course as a first port of call try and resolve this with the garage and see where I get to. Shame it has come to this and been a lot of extra messing around.

[Dr Imran T]

Right chaps - just to let you all know, I have spoken to the garage and he has agreed to take the car back and look into the situation.

I'm not sure how this will be resolved but as one other poster rightly pointed out, the garage must be offered the opportunity to fix the problem. I have agreed to let him try and resolve this before or if I go down the claims route.

I think the garage and I are not in agreement with compression values - he argues that as long as the readings are all relatively uniform than that is OK. I argue that on a high performance car the engine is crucial... had this car been a cheap run about then I would not have been overly fussed.

Either way, this has been a long drawn process and ultimately a very disappointing one.

Thank you all for you excellent insight and useful advice.

I will come back and inform this thread and let you all know of the outcome both good or bad.

Regards.

[Dr Imran T]

Centurion07 said:

Nothing to add apart from that^ doesn't sound like you're going to get much joy from him.

As someone pointed out, there is no way ANY engine running at 65% of the what the compression SHOULD be is ok or acceptable from a rebuilt engine. Your builder's refusal to acknowledge that should give you cause for concern.

I know and this worries me BUT I have to go down this route and show I've allowed them to fix it. What he classes as a 'healthy' engine and I do are poles apart.

Silentbrown - good idea re. the RR that is something I had planned on doing. I wonder how much power this engine is down also it's all evidence to help my cause should it end up that way.