Unusable garage in rented property

[the_lone_wolf]

Hi all

Firstly, sorry for the long post, but we've just moved house, and are in a bit of a situation. We moved into an apartment that had a garage in a block of four next to the main building, went and viewed the place back at the end of September after the long dry spell of weather (the reason that's important will be apparent soon). All looked good, had a look in the garage, fairly old but serviceable as somewhere to keep the tools, boxes, work kit and motorcycle.

Come Friday just gone and we move in with the larger house items, at first the agent didn't have the keys for the garage (just one of many screw ups on moving day by them) so the landlord dropped them off the following day (never heard back from the agent). On Friday a neighbour very generously offered to let me store my rolling chest of tools in her garage until we had access to ours, but my heart sank when she mentioned drainage issues and I saw that hers had standing water inside.

I go down to the garage block yesterday to find ours is pretty much the same, the ~1" U shaped bottom lip of the door was full of water, there's standing water and mud/earth washed inside reaching back 2/3rds of the length of the garage, and some leakage in from the rear wall as well. On top of that I check again this morning and there's a LOT of water dripping down from the ceiling, my tool chest looks like it's been hosed down it's so wet, everything in there is covered with condensation and it drips on you from the ceiling when you're inside

On top of that, there's numerous junk items that (I presume) belong to the landlord, chairs, dismantled table, boxes, all of them suffering from damp exposure and covered in mould.

Now, to put it mildly, I'm furious... the property was advertised as having a garage, when we viewed it (separately) my wife and I both explicitly told the agent, then the agent and landlord together, that we needed a garage to store items, tools, a motorcycle, plus ~£40k worth of surveying instruments that I use for work, and at no point did they mention flooding or drainage issues. As I see it, the garage isn't usable, we cant keep cardboard boxes in there, they'll have turned to pulp in a week, and that's IF we don't get any rain and the floor floods - the tools and the bike will rust as we're only half a mile from the sea and the air inside is constantly damp.

I'm going to get onto the agent tomorrow first thing, but tbh I don't know what to do - we've literally just moved in, only signed contracts, 12month ASTs, on Friday (see aforementioned agent fk ups) - the apartment itself is fine barring a few minor things and we love the location, plus we've ploughed the best part of £500 into the agent's bullst "referencing fees" and the costs of moving, but the garage, if it's as bad as it is now, is totally unsuitable, and we won't be able to live here.

So, what can we do? There is a drain in front of the garages, but it obviously isn't working properly, if it were clear it may stop the flooding but what of the damp issue? I'm going to have to arrange storage of our garage contents as I'm not having things sat going mouldy

What I'd like to do, assuming nothing can be done, is get an abatement on the rent equivalent to the cost of storing my stuff, and look for a new place, then move out and pursue the landlord/agent for the money we've wasted on this place, possible via MCOL perhaps?

Sincerely, Soggy of Southampton...

tl;dr - Rented house advertised with garage, viewed when dry, turns out it floods when wet, love the property but garage unusable, help!!

[the_lone_wolf]

sjg said:

It's not reasonable to expect a perfectly dry building at all times to store boxes, tools and expensive work equipment inside. Indeed, most contracts/agreements/covenants for blocks of flats explicitly state that the garage is only to be used for storing motor vehicles.

You're absolutely right, perhaps I came across as a little over zealous - our garage at the previous place was a little damp, after a couple of months cardboard boxes were slightly limp, slight condensation on a cold winter morning - that's the kind of thing we'd expect from a garage, flooding, washed up mud, dripping ceilings etc seem unacceptable to me, and I certainly wouldn't keep my bike in there!!

Should mention that it's not a block of flats as such, only four over two floors with a garage block located on the edge of a development of newish 2/3 bed semi-detached houses. I'd be happy to hop up and have a look at the roof myself, I need to find out how it works here though because I think there's a building management company that's supposed to do that sort of thing.

Definitely want to keep the landlord on side, having arguments isn't going to solve anything, but I think it's their first time renting, and combined with an agent that so far has made letting agents elsewhere seem efficient and motivated, things just haven't been done, like the junk in the garage, and the house being dirty, we've just spent an hour cleaning kitchen drawers and cupboards of crumbs and detritus before we can put anything away, etc etc

Will update after I've spoken with the agent tomorrow, and when I get chance to later in the week I'll get some photos of the garage so we all know what I'm trying to describe

[the_lone_wolf]

The Surveyor said:

What does your lease say?

The lease describes the property:

Tenancy Agreement said:

The Property:
--Property address--

Extra Notes:
Referred to as the Property in this agreement. This includes any garden but does not include any shared areas

The garages are not shared, each is key locked and one is assigned to each flat

The original property advert lists "Garden & Garage" at the end

Additionally, the garage is listed on the inventory, although it wasn't accessible at the time of the inventory check due to no key being present

[the_lone_wolf]

The Surveyor said:

That suggests that the garage is part of the premises, what does the lease say about defects to the property. Are you responsible for defects, or the landlord? For a residential letting, I'd expect it to be the landlord in which case chase it up with the agent first thing in the morning.

Yes, typical residential letting, landlord responsible for property defects

Will update when I've spoken to the agent tomorrow

[the_lone_wolf]

To respond to a few posts, the survey kit is insured separately, no issues there

WRT to my expectations of a garage, is it unreasonable to expect a garage not to have standing water on the floor and water leaking / condensation falling from the ceiling?

[the_lone_wolf]

whoami said:

What did the agent/landlord say?

Tried three times today to get hold of the agent managing this property, the people I spoke to were all very concerned but I managed to "just miss him" each time...

Have now written everything down and emailed a pdf letter detailing the issues we have

Will try again tomorrow to call

[the_lone_wolf]

Jimmyarm said:

Back OT, unfortunately you just have to keep putting the calls in with the Agent. You will probably spend months getting nowhere until you politely demand a reduction in rent as part of the property is unusable.

I figured as much

Didn't get chance to call the agent today, no response from him

My wife also called to inform me there's a distinct smell of cat urine in the 2nd bedroom, lovely, I'll add that to the list - the carpets haven't been cleaned properly obviously

This is the letter I sent him yesterday:

The letter said:

17th November 2014

[Our address]

Dear [agent],

I tried to contact you today via the office telephone number but after leaving a message with Stephanie to call me back urgently I received no response, so I'm writing this letter. I was trying to contact you to inform you that while most things are fine, there's a few issues we're having with the property.

Firstly, the garage – when we were given keys on Friday 14th we weren't given a garage key, it was only after prompting [the agent] that the missing keys were dropped off the following day.

Upon opening the door, the garage floor was covered with water, reaching approximately two thirds of the way to the rear of the garage, this was standing water, and a slew of mud and dirt has also washed into the garage with it. There is also water ingress through the rear wall, and in addition to the standing water, there was condensation dripping from the ceiling constantly, and the entire area smells of damp and mould. I have had to store my tool chest in the garage as there is currently no other place for it, however when inspecting it yesterday morning it was soaked with condensation and water that has dripped from the ceiling.

As well as the above, there are also numerous items that have been left in the garage, a rough list being two chairs, an office desk, some kind of wall ornament, a sky TV box, and other miscellanea. The chairs are covered with advanced mould, and the office desk is showing severe damage due to water ingress. These items are not listed on the inventory and have no value to us, but are occupying space in the garage nonetheless.

As it stands, the garage is wholly unfit for purpose, and whilst I appreciate a garage does not need to conform to the same standards as a habitable part of a property, it is unusable to us in its current state. When we viewed the property, both my wife and I made it crystal clear on two occasions to both [the agent] and the landlord, that the garage was essential to our requirements.

Now I am faced with the problem of having a motorcycle, tools, items needing storage that must be vacated from our previous residence imminently, and having nowhere to keep them. Unless the issues with the garage are addressed within a week or so, I will have no other option than to acquire storage nearby, incurring the associated costs.

Please can you contact me URGENTLY to discuss this.



The second issue we have is with the condition of the apartment itself. When we arrived, we didn't expect to have to immediately set about cleaning in order to bring the property up to an acceptable standard.

As of the time of writing, I have only seen the kitchen being cleaned, but the condition of the drawers and cupboards required removal of crumbs, dust, grime etc. that we wouldn't consider acceptable when vacating a property, consequently I think it is unfair to present new tenants with the same.

Practically there is little that can be done now, we are cleaning the property as we move in and retaining photographs to catalogue the condition in which we found it, this is an expression of frustration more than anything, but it reflects badly on whoever signed the property off as ready to go.

Finally, the inventory provided is, to put it bluntly, completely worthless. Whoever has completed it has missed such items as broken blinds, chips and scuffs on the floor, the list seems to grow every time I look more closely at any specific area. As such I will have to re-write the entire inventory from scratch, which will take some time.

I am currently working away from home until Thursday 20/11, and we shall be spending this coming weekend at our old house preparing to hand it over to the new tenants. I shall endeavour to complete the new inventory in what little spare time we have on Friday and Sunday evenings and try to get it to you early next week.

I understand that this must come across as an extremely negative tirade, but please understand that the many positive aspects are omitted here due to lack of space, we love the apartment and look forward to working with [the agent] and the landlord to resolve these few issues that are present.

[the_lone_wolf]

Thanks BV, been a bit busy with work this week so not got back to this thread, managed to call the agent again yesterday and list all the problems driving home from up north

Finally got a response from our guy today, turned out he'd been attacked by a dog and spent a spell in hospital, so can't really blame him

Within a few hours I'd sent him photos describing the issues, he'd contacted the landlord and we' got an apology for the condition of the apartment and inventory items

The situation with the garage is ongoing, but it seems to be drying out now, I've made it clear that I think the gully needs jetting, and if it floods again I'll be insisting - tbh they claim to have cleared it before they left, so if it's flooding within a few days/weeks I doubt it really is

Still not completely happy, the garage is filthy with the dirt that's been washed in, but if I can get it dry and prevent further flooding at least stuff isn't going to get damaged, and I can dump the stuff that's in there (not that I should have to...)

Let's see what happens now...

[the_lone_wolf]

Some photos:

The garage ones were taken yesterday, late afternoon, five days after we moved in and initially discovered the flooding

The "professionally cleaned" kitchen:


And oven:




Every cupboard and drawer was like this:


Only the washing machine, cycle racks and tool chest are ours:


Condensation:


And dripping from the ceiling:

[the_lone_wolf]

Slidingpillar said:

That garage even if perfectly drained will be too damp to keep tools in. Sectional concrete walls admit more water than brick, and the roof is concrete asbestos. My garage was so roofed and leaked so I changed the roof to a more normal flat felted roof.

This I am discovering now...

As a temporary measure I attacked the joints with expanding foam, it's helped but its still dripping wet, though more damp now than flooded, everything is under HD plastic sheeting to at least keep the drips off

The neighbouring garage owner has borrowed a pressure washer and blasted the moss off his roof and cleared the drainage channels, I've not had a moment to think about this since I last updated really, but I may end up doing similar if that seems to help the problem. The drainage channel outside backs up every time it rains but has so far not flooded again, although that's a matter of when rather than if

The contents of our old garage have gone into a nearby self storage place, at a very reasonable cost of £170 for three months, I don't hold out much hope of the building management company or the agency actually doing anything until the reality of the threat of rent abatement hits home...

[the_lone_wolf]

herewego said:

Why not find out what the drainage problem is and sort it out?

I know what the problem is, the gully and pipe is blocked through years of neglect, it needs properly jetting

The issue is that it's a rented property, I could, following the correct procedure, have it done and deduct the cost from the rent, but it's a slow process.

You're right about the condensation though, it was particularly cold this morning and up until now it did appear to be improved!!

Now that our old place is done and sorted and work isn't quite so hectic I'm going to start pushing harder as we've not had much beyond "I'll call the management company again" from the agent so far. There is a clause in our contract about reducing rent due to uninhabitability, so I'll also be speaking to the agent about that too

[the_lone_wolf]

superlightr said:

You will be on very dodgy footings if you start to withold rent and would have a court summons very quickly - (speaking as a letting agent)

That's why we're not just going to be withholding the rent, I even said as much in the post you quoted!!

Speaking as a victim tenant of letting agents, are they all as incompetent as every single one we've ever had to deal with? We signed off our old place today, leaving it "immaculate" according to the report, but while the agent was very pleasant, even that had issues still present that were reported during the first day of the tenancy, bathroom doors that don't close, lights/plugs/plumbing that doesn't function etc...

No doubt these agents must be "a minority" yet I've never met a single person, landlord or tenant, that's had a good word to say about a letting agent...

offshorematt2 said:

Some bunding/sand bags across the front of the garage would prevent the risk of reflooding. Just move it when you take the bike in and out? If the flooding is prevented, the condensation situation should hopefully improve though I'd agree it will never be great. Is there any power out there? If so, you could put a carcoon or something inside the garage - not ideal but probably cheaper long term than alternative storage and when you move you can take it with you/resell it. Not sure whether this would be an improvement if you don't have a power supply though.

Unfortunately no power supply (you wouldn't turn it on anyway with the amount of water in there) and the layout of the area precludes physical barricades without causing increased flooding issues for neighbouring garages... I did look at bike versions of the carcoon, but as it's going to be off the road this winter anyway and I have a relative who has generously offered to let me store it at her house which has a garage that doesn't flood and leak so it's not really necessary...

[the_lone_wolf]

Wings said:

especially for a tenant who failed to inspect the garage prior to signing the tenancy agreement, the same type of agreement that has no cooling off period.

How would you propose we inspect the garage when the agent didn't even have keys for it when we moved in? The agent's process was to sign the lease to release the keys and it should have been done before we moved, however due to the agent fking up the process and failing to send us the paperwork we were left with a van full of furniture and nowhere to put it without travelling to them to sort out their own error

Our previous rental handover was conducted at the property, we signed the lease at the time and everything went smoothly, we were under the impression that the process would be similar at this one, if we'd walked in and seen the place in the state it was I'd have been very tempted to walk away, even with a van and only two weeks remaining on our old tenancy

The garage was inspected during the viewings that took place a month or so before we moved, at the time it was dry, perhaps it was my error for failing to ask specifically if it flooded during moderate rain, or if the roof leaked. In the same vein I also neglected to ask if the boiler leaked carbon monoxide or the gas hobs had a tendency to explode - I'd expect a boiler to be properly maintained in the same way Id expect a garage not to be under an inch of water

Thanks for the duedil.com link, I already know who manages the property, I've tried contacting them but they refuse to deal with me as I'm not renting directly from them, for the moment it seems endless calls to the agent is about the only thing we can do...

[the_lone_wolf]

superlightr said:

You did imply you would not pay the full rent.

I said I'd be speaking to him, didn't mean to imply I'd begin negotiations by witholding rent, I'm annoyed but not daft

WRT the rest of my post, I have to apologise, it's been a stressful few weeks and it ended up turning into a rant

Yes, our old agents were fine, but by fine I meant not hopelessly inept - as above they never got things fixed, even a leaking pipe causing the kitchen floor tiles to curl in the corners didn't even warrant a visit, when we gave our notice, they only brought two sets of prospective tenants to view the place, at the same time, but managed to make two more appointments for viewings and not show up, and a third after the place had been let!! The first time we saw any kind of efficiency was at our checking out, the agent was new, and frankly a breath of fresh air compared to anybody we've previously dealt with, shame we're leaving them just as someone good takes over...

To clarify a few other things, both our current and previous landlords are first timers, our previous lived abroad, our current did hire a cleaning company to clean, the LA hired a 3rd party company to do the inventory. Yes, he was hosptitalised but only for a few days before our move date, he had six weeks to organise the paperwork we ended up doing on our moving day. Referencing fees were again outsourced to a 3rd party company at £120 each. My wife isn't working at the moment so the entire referencing process involved a couple of online credit checks, a call to our previous agent, and a thirty second phonecall to my boss asking him if I worked for him. Strikes me as a good ruse for £240

The garage can be suitable for storage of most of our stuff, the issues it has are due to lack of maintenance and are not inherent to the design or construction, the neighbouring garage occupier has had much success with just attacking the roof himself to clear the build up of crap, and that's something I'm intending to discuss with our agent as well.

[the_lone_wolf]

23rdian said:

You should have checked before signing anything however the lettings game in this country is a disgrace.

Do other people exist in a magical world where you're given the keys to a place before you sign anything and can live there for a period to check if there's absolutely anything that's not right??

Honestly, we were as explicit as we could be with the requirement of a garage and what it was for to the agent on two occasions and the landlord on one, I saw the garage and it appeared old but serviceable and dry, the wife loved the flat so I was willing to take a hit for a period until we buy our own place where I can get a decent garage for my stuff!!

I'm not expecting a double garage with built in airlines and two post lift or anything like that, I just want something to stop the rain landing on the bike and a few other items - and at the moment that's not what we have...

[the_lone_wolf]

Wow, has it almost been a year already!! Recent events made me think of this thread and I thought I'd update

The garage issue was never addressed properly or resolved, the flooding and damp issue remains and the garage is still not usable, for the last ten months I continually hassled the agent, only to be promised various things that never materialised, I even addressed the landlord directly but she ignored my communications. With hindsight we should have rejected the property from the outset but the problem with hindsight is that you can only look back...

In addition to the garage we had the following issues with the property:

1. Bathrooom drainage slowing down until we were showering in six inches of dirty water that would sit for hours after we used it in the mornings. Reported on 17/01, issue ignored until 18/03 when the downstairs neighbour came knocking because there was water literally flowing through his light fitting. The first plumber they sent looked like he'd just been let out of prison, and proceeded to rip the bathroom apart without unscrewing anything so all the woodwork was damaged, used our personal hand towels without telling us to mop up the months old water and screwed them up underneath the bath to hide them, and broke the sink pedestal ripping the woodwork out. He failed to fix the cause of the leak, only to mask it by overtightening the fixture. It took until June until the bathroom was back to normal and the leak fixed properly.

2. The extractor hood in the kitchen, because like the rest of the apartment it hadn't been cleaned, began dripping rancid old fat and grease onto anything below it when used. This was reported at the same time as the bathroom, 17/01, and despite repeated queries to the agent nothing was done until June when I threatened the agent with an official complaint along with the drainage and garage issues. The handyman who visited recommended that the pipework be cleaned, the landlord's solution was to purchase some wool like sheeting to simply act as a drip tray between the grilles and the motor unit, again masking the problem rather than fixing it. This has now blocked the extractor meaning it doesn't work, and the dripping fat and grease is slowly but surely seeping through the sheet.

3. The agent and landlord attempted to force us to change the tenancy agreement in March, by sending us a letter beginning "Following discussion with your landlady it has been decided that a change will be made to your tenancy agreement..." - This change basically would have made us liable to replace any of the white goods that we broke, but absolved the landlord of repairing or replacing any of them should they break down. I gave them short thrift and never heard anything more about it.

4. The garage door was of such poor quality that it fell off the mountings and injured me last year but I was able to relocate it, in July this year it fell off again and needed replacing according to the garage door expert who visited and before knowing I was the tenant and not the landlord told the agent "you're not going to let this place with a garage are you, it's terrible". The landlord chose instead to bodge the garage door as best possible, even though she was told it would likely fail and need replacing within the year

5. The property has a brick shed/outbuilding, the wooden door fell of it's hinges on 10/08 and I am still waiting for the agent to give me any indication of when this will be fixed, consistently fobbing me off with such things as the Lettings Manager telling me they need to wait for someone else to come back from leave, then from hospital etc etc before they can do anything. In reality the landlord is resisting any attempt to maintain the property.

6. Numerous smaller issues such as doors that didn't close, plaster falling off the walls that were reported but weren't worth pushing for solutions for as if the landlord wasn't going to fix the huge problems with the garage, drainage, kitchen etc there's no way smaller items would be addressed

In short, the last twelve months has been a nightmare, and after making every attempt to contact the landlord and discuss the issue of the mounting costs we were incurring, only to be ignored at every chance, I'd had enough and in June I refused to pay any more rent until the landlord addressed her obligations. This was an absolute last resort, but it worked, through the agent she offered effectively nothing, and then refused to negotiate. That meant in July I was forced to make an application to the courts for our costs. She submitted a defence statement that was 50% lies and 50% irrelevant content, and we reached a settlement through mediation this week.

In addition to our own issues with the garages, the owner of another property with the garage next to ours has been in the process of getting new tenants in, he has categorically told the agent he uses to describe the property and NOT having a usable garage due to the condition they're in and the likelihood of comeback from tenants

Now comes the fun part, in the interim I discovered that our landlord has failed to protect our £1200 deposit in accordance with the law, and as such we are able to apply to the court for the immediate return of our deposit, and the court "must" award us damages of between one and three times the deposit amount. On top of that the Section 21 notice she had issued to us for the end of the tenancy is not legally valid. We have served our letter before action this week and are awaiting her response now. I should mention that any damages we are awarded by the court will cover the costs she has forced us to incur with the majority being donated to several housing charities that have helped us through the worst year of our lives together, we're not doing this for our own gain, only to penalise her.

In short, she has picked the wrong tenants to try and screw over, and will now be suffering the consequences of her stupidity and stubbornness...

[the_lone_wolf]

StuTheGrouch said:

Just to pick up on this bit though, I thought it was the agent's job to protect the deposit, not the landlord?

The agent is able to actually carry out the process on behalf of the landlord, but it is the landlord who is specified in the law as responsible for making sure the rules are adhered to and ultimately must pay any penalty

Jimmyarm, thanks for that - we're actually moving abroad when we are able and will be purchasing rather than renting thank goodness, not as a direct result of this but I'm sure subconsciously it can't help

[the_lone_wolf]

Here we go...

TooMany2cvs said:

I'd have been out of there asap - at the end of the initial six month tenancy.

AST was twelve months as mentioned in the original post, we only discovered this on the day we were supposed to be moving in but were sat in the agents office because they'd screwed up and not sorted the paperwork beforehand

TooMany2cvs said:

But I'd also have taken some responsibility, and when the shower started to block two months after moving in, I'd have cleaned the drain myself.

We tried every reasonable method of unblocking it, and ran two courses of industrial drain cleaner that normally consumers cannot purchase, all of which had no effect, before mentioning it to the agent. By the time they'd finally got round to sorting it it had got so bad that the only way to unblock the drain was to dismantle the bathroom. and physically remove it

TooMany2cvs said:

...I'd also have cleaned the cooker hood myself, rather than complaining after two months and for the next eight months.

The issue only manifested after two months because it had been superficially cleaned to hide the problem before we moved it. To do the job properly would have required removal of the entire unit and dismantling to clean, plus steam cleaning the pipework that leads into the walls of the property - you certainly wouldn't have done this...

TooMany2cvs said:

I'd also have noticed the state of the garage door when viewing the place

For the third or fourth time now, THE GARAGE WAS DRY ON BOTH OCCASIONS WHEN WE VIEWED THE PROPERTY - I'm not stupid enough to look at a garage full of water and say "You know what, I'll sign the contract and then just have twelve months of hassle trying to get them to sort this out so we can live in this moderately attractive apartment"

If you review the rainfall from last year (and I have) at the closest three stations to the property there was less than half the rain in the four weeks leading up to the date I saw the garage in September than in June or July, and around 80-90% less than in October, November, December etc when normal levels of rainfall were present.

[the_lone_wolf]

TooMany2cvs said:

So on the day you were moving in, you still hadn't actually seen or signed a tenancy?

Nope, won't be making that mistake again...

TooMany2cvs said:

the_lone_wolf said:

For the third or fourth time now, THE GARAGE WAS DRY ON BOTH OCCASIONS WHEN WE VIEWED THE PROPERTY - I'm not stupid enough to look at a garage full of water and say "You know what, I'll sign the contract and then just have twelve months of hassle trying to get them to sort this out so we can live in this moderately attractive apartment"

I was talking about the insecurity and poor quality of the door that fell off, not about the moisture.

The door was secure enough for the purpose I required of it. The locking mechanics and the opening mechanics were completely separate, meaning it could be securely closed but had issues not falling off when opened...

[the_lone_wolf]

johnfm said:

This is why "Armchair landlords' need taxing out of existence.

I don't know if taxing is the answer is it? The law is already quite weighty behind the rights of tenants (and rightly so)

As I see it the law is working, our landlord has failed to do the right thing, and she has been punished once and will be punished again

I think good landlords like our previous ones aren't subject to such legal measures and can continue to rent happily, but bad landlords such as our current one will soon realise they have to actually do the right thing, especially with increasing amounts of legislation protecting tenants (the majority of whom will not be as switch on as we were) being introduced...