Criminal Law regards Gross Negligence

[nekrum]

Hi

I can't go into details on an open forum for obvious reasons but I'm after some advice regards criminal law in relation to gross negligence by medical professionals. If anybody is willing to assist or knows somebody I would be very grateful.

NOTE: I do not need advice regards a negligence claim but specific advice on criminal law relating to Gross Negligence Manslaughter.

Thanks

[nekrum]

Thanks for the replys.

For clarification we have just had an inquest in which there is clearly clinical negligence, the Trust have already admitted liability. Our legal people have not had much experience with criminal law and I want to satisfy my own mind as to if we have or have not grounds for a cps referral as the evidence is damming. In sort I'm after a second opinion from somebody who has criminal law experience in relation to gross negligence by medical professionals.

I'm after a referral if anybody knows anybody who may be able to assist, I'm not after advice on forum and I'm happy to pay.

Edited by nekrum on Monday 22 December 19:55

[nekrum]

Thanks again for the replies..

I don't disagree that the NHS is a national institution that should be protected but, in our case there have been multiple unorthodox errors and many other failings which include not following accepted practice. The Trust also failed to investigate a serious incident which resulted in the death of a new born baby (our son) which, if we didn't push for answers we would have never known the truth. All preventable. I fully accept accidents do and can happen and medical professionals on the whole deserve our up most respect but there has to be a line where they are held accountable for their actions if they are highly negligent. Accidents and negligence are not the same thing. They should not be indemnified just because they are medical professionals!..

A common lawyer said:

Sometimes, those mistakes are so serious that only prosecution can be an appropriate response from society.

Edited by nekrum on Friday 26th December 15:25

[nekrum]

Hi All

Again thanks for the replies and direct messages. I have now got the information I needed. It looks like my post has inadvertently created an interesting debate, I'll put my view and a few more details or our situation for clarification.

Firstly, my enquiry regards criminal law, specifically around gross negligence manslaughter was triggered by the coroner who brought this up at the inquest. The inquest was mid december but the coroner is not giving his verdict until January after he has considered the evidence. At lot of things came to light in live evidence that hadn't within previous investigation / statements. As a family we have been placed in a very alien situation and will no previous experience or knowledge of inquests I have been on a very steep learning curve - I have an obligation to ensure my sons death is thoroughly investigated and appropriate steps taken (whatever they may be). I can't do that without a basic understanding. Not just so we can find peace but also to ensure lives are not endangered in the future. We had twins, and I owe it him to ensure all the facts are known as one day he will ask me what happened to his brother and I want to be able to look him in the eye and tell him the truth whatever that may have been. In our case there have been many systematic failures both before and after their delivery not just the dangerous, unorthodox and inappropriate actions (their words) taken by the registrar during delivery which resulted in the killing of our son. Negligence is a generic term probably used to often, in our case there has been a serious breech of acceptable practice and duty of care by multiple people and the Trust, so serious it has been described to me by an independent consultant as grossly negligent.

In relation to the debate on litigation in our situation without legal representation, I very much doubt we would have ever got the truth. The Trust failed on multiple occasions to investigate a serious death (failing to follow government protocols) and only did so by order of the coroner some 14 months later. It has since come to light that important information had been deliberetly omitted from documents and reports. If we took what the Trust said at face value we would never have known the truth. We have not gone looking for blame or fault but just the Truth. If fault is found (seriously grossly negligent) then people need to stand up and be held accountable for their actions. Without litigation in our case we would not be able to put appropriate pressure on the Trust to ensure they act swiftly and put measures in place to ensure lives are not a risk!.. It is our understanding that in the last couple of months the Trust have started to make improvements but they do not go far enough at present and remember we are now just over 15 months down the line. If the Trust investigated from the start and were truthful and open then litigation and associated costs would not have been needed. There is only one winner - the legal firms.

The NHS is undoubtably budgeting a lot of money for litigation which yes can and should be used for front line services and improving care. However this augment could just as easily be applied to costs the NHS endures for looking after immigrants who do not contribute to the system, lazy obese people, needless cosmetic surgery (boob jobs etc) and massive bonuses to middle and senior management.. The NHS is in trouble there is no doubt but litigation is not the root cause and unfortunatly without it the NHS will not improve and weed out the bad managers and practitioners.

We did not go on a witch hunt looking for somebody to blame, but just wanted the truth. The truth as it turns out was far worse then we could have imagined and is a massive blow, something that will be hard to come to terms with. Our son was killed as a result of preventable events. However, if his loss forces the Trust to make changes that saves lives in the future then at least his short life wasn't wasted!..

Edited by nekrum on Wednesday 31st December 10:40

[nekrum]

Hi

Thanks for the replies and I agree.. throughout we have not gone looking for blame, all we have wanted is the truth. The truth is shocking. I agree that any medical practitioner should always have a go if a life is at risk, it is most defiantly better to try and fail then not to try at all and they should be applauded for doing so. I have no doubt that the registrar had not intention of causing the death of our son but, she made no attempt to follow accepted practice, accepted procedures and failed to step back and take stock. He was not at serious risk until she attempted the unorthodox and unacceptable procedures. There was no justification for her actions and she did not offer any at the inquest.

The Trust failed to be honest, they failed to learn and they have failed to act - we have no alternative but to take it out of there hands. For those that don't know the coroners report is called a 'Prevention of Future Deaths' report, his concerns are sufficient to think lives are still at risk.

I would also say that the actions we are taking will not give us any comfort, they will not bring him back and will not give us any pleasure.. Ultimately it is not my decision if a criminal act has been committed that's for the CPS and whatever they decide we accept. We can only act on the information we have. People must he held accountable for their actions.

I personally wouldn't be able to live with myself if these people are involved in future incidences, responsible for a death / cover up and I failed to act.

Edited by nekrum on Sunday 12th April 15:33

Edited by nekrum on Sunday 12th April 15:37

[nekrum]

Thanks Paul

The word "unorthodox" came from an independent expert's report.. he was asked and confirmed.. Trust's own SUI report (when they finally investigated) also confirmed by consensus of peers.

[nekrum]

I would say that there is a wider issue here. If serious deaths were investigated in an open and truthful way, so that lessons can be learnt thus preventing further deaths then litigation would not be needed. This is about patient safety and duty of candour. In our case there has been an horrendous incident that has killed our son. This is compounded by the fact that senior medical professionals and Trust management failed to investigate a serious death on multiple occasions!.. people must and will be accountable for their actions and I'm not referring to the registrar here.. how many families have not got the answers they deserve?.. this must be investigated.

The coroners report is in the public domain, I invite you to read it and make your own view.. https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/publications/thor-dal...

Edited by nekrum on Tuesday 14th April 13:37

[nekrum]

desolate said:

nekrum said:

This is compounded by the fact that senior medical professionals and Trust management failed to investigate a serious death on multiple occasions!.. people must and will be accountable for their actions and I'm not referring to the registrar here.. how many families have not got the answers they deserve?.. this must be investigated.

whilst not wishing to trivialise the pain of the terrible events that happened to you and othersI really do agree with this point and for those unaffected by the personal tragedy this is what we should really be trying to stop.

Mistakes (and negligence) happen BUT the fact that many trusts are routinely covering up these mistakes and actively try and keep the truth from coming out is disgusting.

There is a reason that the NHS legal bill is so large - it's because management is too busy protecting its own arse to give a st about the truth.

This..

[nekrum]

Well the Trust responded (and it was late).. inadequate to say the least!..

[nekrum]

spaximus said:

You have my deepest sympathy for your loss of a child, but what is it now you want? It seems to me that the death of your child was not explained fully and the reason why is people in the NHS fear telling the truth.
My MIL had some mental issues, had smoked for years and complained of shortness of breath, for months. She was dismissed as imagining it. She died 6 months later from cancer. In my opinion the Doctors were negligent, but in truth, could they have made a difference to the outcome? Probably not, but what hurt the family more was that everyone clammed up as soon as we asked questions.
All my FIL wanted was someone to say sorry, but they could not as they fear an admission will lead to a costly court case. No compensation would have made any difference but a simple "sorry we let her down" was all that was needed.
The FIl then wanted someone struck off hung drawn and quartered, after the stony silence, but how would that help, I suspect the Doctor was sorry he had done what he did, as he was a decent man, but the lack of interaction was wrong.

When the judge gives his verdict that may well determine your next step, but ask yourself what you hope to achieve. If you want someone to go to jail is it justice for your son or revenge? You say your son was killed, but then that would be manslaughter or murder, proving intent or motive is hard.
As others have said Doctors and medical staff are human, they make mistakes, operate at stressful times, if I make a mistake we lose money, they do it death a disability happens.
From all the cases I have heard of once solicitors are involved the pressure from them can distort what you really want.
Whatever happens I hope you and your wife can move on and not let this tragedy harm the two of you further.

I couldn't agree more. All we have ever wanted was the truth, acceptance that failures were made and lessons had been learnt. We have some of this now but what I am really angry about is the additional insult to injury the Trust had put us through since September 2013. All needlessly and as you rightly say, is due to them building a wall of silence and defense. Once we got through this wall there is shocking evidence of systematic failures and bad governance. The fact is they failed to investigate a serious neonatal death. This for me is very concerning and potentially continuing to put other lives at risk and potentially denying other families the chance to truly move on by being denied the truth. This is why we are taking action. I would not be able to live with myself if in a years time I hear of another neonatal death at that hospital, potentially involving the same Dr's and I failed to act. If I don't act it makes me as bad as them. Essentially a message must sent that this sort of behavior is not acceptable and people should and will be held accountable if they fail to perform their duty. It is not for me to decide if they have committed an offence, it is not for me to decided if they are in breach of their professional duty. That's for the Police and GMC to investigate. All I can do if report my concerns based on the evidence from the inquest. I would say that if it all comes to nothing but it makes one Dr or one NHS manager think twice about their candour, then for me that's a win.

desolate said:

I have some very experienced people helping me so OP if you ever need someone to discuss matters with please drop me a PM.

Thanks for this desolate, I'll drop you a line..

Edited by nekrum on Wednesday 13th May 08:25

[nekrum]

Petrus1983 said:

OP you have my deepest sympathies - I can't even start to get my head around how terrible that day must have been.

For people who haven't read the coroners report it's definitely worth reading prior to posting, it's very, very sad. It's obvious that some very serious mistakes were made, but made more annoying/sadder by the fact that by and large they're easily preventable. I totally understand why the OP feels it necessary to ensure that the hospital in future amends their practises.

One thing I would add though is that I'm quite sure the doctor involved is totally torn up about this. I have a few friends who are surgeons and if you think that loosing a patient 'bounces off' them then you're wrong - and that's compounded with children/babies. Again, if the Trust had been open and honest with you they would have not only helped you but their own staff and future patients.

Petrus1983, thanks for that. Again, I agree wholehearted that the registrar had no intention of causing harm when she entered the room and she was clearly shaken and remorseful at the inquest. If I'm honest I have far less animosity towards her than the I do the Consultant and the Trust. I also firmly believe that the registrar was put in a situation she maybe shouldn't have been in BUT she is a Dr of over 10 years experience who failed to follow accepted practice without justification and failed to offer any at the inquest. She then subsequently failed to make any notes regards the delivery and failed to provide a statement for over 10 months - this is in itself is a gross breach of her professional duty. A close family member is a midwife and any neonatal death clearly have a profound effect on them and they have nothing but my utmost respect and admiration for what they do.

Nothing will change what happened, nothing will make us feel better about it and it's something we will carry for the rest of our lives. We accept that accidents can and will happen. What is unacceptable is their failure to perform their duty, their duty of candour, their duty to learn to prevent future deaths. It's about people doing what's right, what's proper and what is morally acceptable. It's about showing bereaved parents dignity and respect.

[nekrum]

It's taken 22 months of needless heartache but at last they admit their failures.. "it is absolutely clear that the care we delivered for NekrumBaby was substandard and led to his tragic death. The clinical governance arrangements that the Trust had in place at the time of NekrumBaby’s passing not only hampered the Coroner’s investigation but also significantly increased the distress that you and NekrumWife went through."

Now there need's to be accountability..

Edited by nekrum on Wednesday 29th July 12:43