Potential to loose £10k from the sale of my car! HELP! SCAM

[alwoodman]

Hi

I won't mention any names in this yet but I'd really appreciate your advice.

I advertised my car for sale on Pistonheads in August last year, a top spec mini cooper works, a few days later i got an email from someone suggesting they could sell the car for me on Sale or return. I looked into the dealership and it looked very reputable...i left it a few days and then decided to go and see the dealer. I rocked up and there was a VERY flashy car on the forecourt with some very high end stock for sale, the dealer has been there for about 20 years. Absolutely NO ALARM BELLS.

I took my very wise other half with me and we decided to let this dealer sell the car on sale or return. We signed a contract with him stating that we authorised him to sell the car for us and he'd return us the agreed price via BACS with him stating. "It is very important that on the day of the sale you answer your phone so you can email him confirmation that i pass title so he then has the right to sell the car" i.e. "Hi Jon Doe (name of the dealer) I give you title on the car for you to sell to the agreed person".

A few weeks went by...so I pinged him an email...no offers yet..fair enough I thought. Then the weeks started rolling by until I emailed him and he said he had someone interested if i could knock £800 off the price...i agreed and he confirmed he had taken a £3,000 deposit from the guy but he was in the military and would take the car on his return at Christmas (I'd originally dropped the car off on 30th August 2014). Fine I thought job done, Christmas and new year came and went, so I chased him up and then last week (18th January 2015) I emailed him and he said it was job done the car was sold and his accounts department would be in touch with payment.

Today 27th Jan 2015 I start thinking this is weird it's taking a very long time to settle this payment. I decide to search for some reviews of the dealer and BANG you guessed it...a lot of disgruntled customers with one even talking about the delay caused by the military guy who had supposedly bought his sale or return car. This guy did end up getting his money but after taking legal action. Most of the reviews talking about the sale or return scam are in the last 6 months. He also dropped in he was FSA approved (i looked into it earlier that lapsed in 2010!)

I have spoken to the DVLA who although they wouldn't give me the date that the new ownership changed they were able to help me by telling me that the tax refund went through in November so that's when the car must have been sold.

To have sold the car surely i would have had to have signed the V5 log book passing the new owner the rights to the car? Can I play equally dirty here and phone the police and tell them the car was stolen?

I'm going to speak with my solicitor in the morning to see what the best course of action is but what do you guys think i should do? He may pay me tomorrow for all i know but having read a like for like situation which went all the way down the legal route...I doubt it.

Edited by alwoodman on Thursday 29th January 10:33

[alwoodman]

Thanks for the comments, i've spoken to the dealer today and I mentioned id seen reviews, depicting my situation exactly. He denies them of course, shortly after i spoke to him a new review appeared on review centre showing a positive light...i wonder who posted that!? I don't know how he can really deny they are inaccurate because they are telling exactly the same story as i am experiencing!

ANYWAY...he has given me his word (unsure of the value of that yet) that i will have a cheque on Friday morning in the post. We'll see!

I've spent a good few hours working through his companies and his previous companies today. He's been in the same spot selling cars for 20 years so he has history but less you might think.

I think i may have found something which i could latch onto in the fact that he incorporated himself under a new name at the end of September 2014, i had done the deal with him in late August 2014 but the car didn't get sold, according to the DVLA, until November 2014. My thought on this is that therefore the company that actually ended up selling the car was not authorised to do so as my contract was with the old incorporated company name?

What do you think?

[alwoodman]

I can see why you are insisting I chase this up and go and see him immediately but only as of Tuesday did I find out I was being used to help his cash flow and the details of how this little scam of his was going to play out. I've confronted him on it and he knows he's been rumbled. He's been doing exactly the same scam since at least 2011 and for a LOT more money than I'm in for. He's just emailed me: "Cheque posted recorded delivery to address given per last email". If it doesn't arrive tomorrow morning for the full amount I'm tooled up for the next step. I'll keep you posted.

[alwoodman]

Slidingpillar said:

JustinP1 said:

Are you trusting that someone that runs a car dealership for some reason doesn't have internet banking so could transfer funds, immediately, today?

Absolutely! You'd be wary of accepting a cheque from an individual for this sum, so why should you accept it from a dealer who has already acted wrongly?

If he sends me a "personal" (and not a business) cheque and it bounces/gets cancelled, that means legally in the eyes of the law if a cheque is given and cancelled you will get a letter of dishonour from the bank to say why it wasn't honoured. This means I could chase him personally.

[alwoodman]

KFC said:

alwoodman said:

I can see why you are insisting I chase this up and go and see him immediately but only as of Tuesday did I find out I was being used to help his cash flow and the details of how this little scam of his was going to play out. I've confronted him on it and he knows he's been rumbled. He's been doing exactly the same scam since at least 2011 and for a LOT more money than I'm in for. He's just emailed me: "Cheque posted recorded delivery to address given per last email". If it doesn't arrive tomorrow morning for the full amount I'm tooled up for the next step. I'll keep you posted.

I would just point out you're well aware he's been playing this game since 2011 so he can cut the games out. Like someone else above posted he's robbing peter to pay paul. People who shout the loudest are going to get paid, until the wheels fall off and there isn't money to pay and he goes under. You can't help anyone else but you can help yourself by forcing the issue and making sure you're one of the few who get what they're owed.

Take my word for it...tomorrow morning at 11am I'll be forcing the issue.

[alwoodman]

nikaiyo2 said:

alwoodman said:

I think i may have found something which i could latch onto in the fact that he incorporated himself under a new name at the end of September 2014, i had done the deal with him in late August 2014 but the car didn't get sold, according to the DVLA, until November 2014. My thought on this is that therefore the company that actually ended up selling the car was not authorised to do so as my contract was with the old incorporated company name?

What do you think?

I think that the above is the worst possible news, you sold the car to a different entity to what is currently trading.
Lets say you sold it to XYZ ltd in August, who continued as a trading company until a point in the future, lets say mid December. However since September XYZ 2 Ltd has been registered and is now the company trading from the location, for the most part. XYZ Ltd is just ticking along in the background mounting up debts and liabilities, whilst all the assets and trading is done through XYZ 2 Ltd...

The company that previous complainants have chased him under was "blablabla ltd" but this was dissolved in 1997 and been running without being registered since (how did he get away with that?!?). Around 10/09/2014 he incorporated under "blablabla 2 ltd". The contract I signed with him was under the dissolved company letter head (on 30/08/14) so i'm assuming that it is null and void and therefore had no authority to sell my car under a new company name when he sold it around November 2014?!

Edited by alwoodman on Thursday 29th January 10:28

[alwoodman]

KFC said:

alwoodman said:

If he sends me a "personal" (and not a business) cheque and it bounces/gets cancelled, that means legally in the eyes of the law if a cheque is given and cancelled you will get a letter of dishonour from the bank to say why it wasn't honoured. This means I could chase him personally.

Do you seriously think someone who's been scamming for this long is going to do something that makes himself personally liable? There is no way he's going to issue you a personal cheque. Like people keep telling you, you need to just cause maximum fuss and hassle to make sure you're at the front of the queue to get paid. £10k is enough to park up outside his garage and tell every incoming customer he's refusing to pay you.

Yes re. personal cheque...he's already done it with another claimant.

[alwoodman]

Wacky Racer said:

Feel very sorry for the op, been following this thread with interest.

This is exactly what happened to me, when I left my six month old Triumph motorbike with a long established Triumph main dealer, they sold it the very next day and never told me.

I eventually got my 5k back six weeks later, after a lot of stress and threats....

The dealer went bust six months later.

To anyone reading this thread who has an expensive car or bike on SOR with a dealer, I would be getting it back pronto.

Let's hope this ends happily....

I agree GO AND GET IT BACK NOW! I didn't realise how completely exposed I'd left myself on this.

[alwoodman]

superlightr said:

has the car actually been sold? is it still at the premises?

According to the dealer the car sold middle of Jan 18th 2015 ish, since finding out about his little cash flow scam i phoned the DVLA and although they won't disclose what date it sold...when they realise you've potentially been scammed they find ways to tell you. So according to the DVLA it was mid to late November 2014 when the tax rebate was sent to me.

Alarm bells should have rung for me then but i didn't receive that because I'd not changed the address on the car since i changed address (my misses was meticulous about changing all our addresses...but we missed that one).

[alwoodman]

AndStilliRise said:

OP time to name and shame please.

I'm going to give him until tomorrow morning and if no cheque arrives then I'll be more than happy to share. I think you'd be pretty shocked at what you'd see, it is far from some dodgy back street dealer...all that glitters is not gold as they say.

[alwoodman]

Busa mav said:

Mate is presently going through as similar scenario, but for a lot more money.

Must be 2 years into it now.

Not in Reading is it OP ?

No...not in Reading.

[alwoodman]

Vaud said:

superlightr said:

KFC said:

superlightr said:

has the car actually been sold? is it still at the premises?

If you're going to reply why not read the thread first

i did and have. I was curious as to is it still physically there? perhaps it hasnt been actually sold despite what the dealer said and is still on their premises.

I have read the thread and it was not clear to me - he has only been told that it is sold?

The dealer told me it sold (as in done deal and money transferred with the buyer) on 19th Jan 2015 but I phoned the DVLA on Tuesday this week, when I told them i thought i'd be scammed they made a point of telling me the date the tax rebate went to my home address which meant that the registered owner had changed shortly before that and that was in November 2014.

[alwoodman]

PurpleMoonlight said:

alwoodman said:

The dealer told me it sold (as in done deal and money transferred with the buyer) on 19th Jan 2015 but I phoned the DVLA on Tuesday this week, when I told them i thought i'd be scammed they made a point of telling me the date the tax rebate went to my home address which meant that the registered owner had changed shortly before that and that was in November 2014.

Gees, it's so easy to miss those cheques dropping on your doormat huh ...

I'd not changed the address the car was registered too since i moved house so i missed it :-\

[alwoodman]

RB Will said:

alwoodman said:

The dealer told me it sold (as in done deal and money transferred with the buyer) on 19th Jan 2015 but I phoned the DVLA on Tuesday this week, when I told them i thought i'd be scammed they made a point of telling me the date the tax rebate went to my home address which meant that the registered owner had changed shortly before that and that was in November 2014.

apologies if I'm mis-remembering anything.
I know its supposed to be on sale or return but maybe the guy just assumed he would be selling it so told the DVLA it was put into the motor trade when you gave it him in November? so the tax would have come off it then but he didnt necessarily sell it until a week or so ago? So if he pays up the full amount he has also got you 2 more moths of tax back.

Not on his side with this by any stretch, he sounds like a dirt bag, just trying to think of possible scenarios.

Can the DVLA tell you how long the current owner has had the car?

I gave him the car on 30/08/2014! They wouldn't give the information out as to how long the current owner had it for.

[alwoodman]

garyhun said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

I hope the dealer knows you have moved then. Wouldn't want your sale cheque going to the wrong address.

Good point. After his last email I would have replied with the correct address again, just to make sure he does not try the "sorry, wrong address guv" excuse.

Yes he's got my correct address and acknowledged that he had sent it to that address.

[alwoodman]

photosnob said:

Taking a business which isn't trading to court is a good way to throw money down the drain...

Get to his place of work OP - get to his home. Get into his world and make his life horrible until you get your money.

So if I did report this car stolen the sales document that the new owner has will be null and void because the new company that sold it had no right to do so in the first place?

[alwoodman]

A cheque for full payment arrived registered post this morning. The misses is on the way to the bank! We still have a nervous few days waiting for it to clear but we'll use the Direct Presentation service at Barclays which will trim the time frame by at least a day. #squeekybumtime

[alwoodman]

I forgot to mention...the cheque is not in the newly formed (in the last 4 months) business name or the dissolved company name, it is the dealers initials followed bv trading as like this:

xx trading as blablabla

Is that a sole trader format?

[alwoodman]

Wills2 said:

These tales put me off ever buying or selling a car on SOR, the only way I'd do it is if the customer paid me the money and I gave the dealer his commission or via a solicitor.

I simply did not even consider how much I have left myself exposed on a deal like this. I question whether the buyer even knew he was buying a SOR car?

[alwoodman]

Jasandjules said:

KFC said:

I reckon opposite. been fobbed off with a bouncing or cancelled cheque and embarrassed to come back and say that...

Yep that's exactly what's happened. The cheque did indeed bounce on Thursday so he's played me like a mug...the cheque has been represented by my bank and he's assured me that the cheque will clear Monday.