Legality of slip road speed traps
Discussion
Daughter has just came in complaining about a Police traffic car being parked diagonally on the slip road on to our local Bypass, it got me thinking, this does seem like a very dangerous position and I would question the legality of them sitting there. This appears to be a very common manoeuvre now for them, with the car parked at a diagonal on the inside lane of the slip road in order for them to have the gun pointed out the window. In this instance they did not even have blues on to the rear to warn traffic coming on to the slip. Now correct me if I am wrong here but I imagine that parking of any form on a motorway slip is illegal as its obviously very dangerous.
Would be interested to hear the views on this and the legality of it.
Would be interested to hear the views on this and the legality of it.
Quick google reveals this
Stopping and parking
When you stop and park, make sure you always park somewhere safe. It's important that you can be seen by others, as this will make your vehicle more secure. You must not block traffic and must pose no risk to anyone else. You should use the parking areas at truck stops, motorway service areas or car parks reserved for overnight use.
Parking at entry or exit slip roads is strictly forbidden. It is also forbidden to stop or park on hard shoulders unless it is an emergency
So if the above is correct why are speed traps exempt from this, it is obviously considered as a very hazardous thing to do, this then begs the question as to why it would appear not be a very hazardous thing to do because you are driving a patrol car.
Stopping and parking
When you stop and park, make sure you always park somewhere safe. It's important that you can be seen by others, as this will make your vehicle more secure. You must not block traffic and must pose no risk to anyone else. You should use the parking areas at truck stops, motorway service areas or car parks reserved for overnight use.
Parking at entry or exit slip roads is strictly forbidden. It is also forbidden to stop or park on hard shoulders unless it is an emergency
So if the above is correct why are speed traps exempt from this, it is obviously considered as a very hazardous thing to do, this then begs the question as to why it would appear not be a very hazardous thing to do because you are driving a patrol car.
threadlock said:
Chim said:
Would be interested to hear the views on this and the legality of it.
My view: stop whining about the police and let them get on with their job. I hope vonhosen will handle the legal side of your enquiry. 
s offmph1977 said:
Chim said:
vonhosen said:
They are exempt from motorway regs etc, you wouldn't be.
No one is "exempt" from the law, particularly not the Police, there be be special circumstances that allow them to act outside in in certain situation. They are though not exempt. vonhosen said:
Eg All motorway regs
Regulation 16 of the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 provides for exemptions to and the relaxation of these Regulations.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say -
(d) where he does so in the exercise of his duty as a constable a traffic officer when in uniform, as a member of the National Crime Agency for the purposes of that Agency, or as a member of an ambulance service or as an employee of of a fire and rescue authority employed for the purposes of that authority;
Thanks for this, its not very clear though, don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at speed traps here, what I am questioning is the safety element. Blocking and a full lane of the slip road and parking at a diagonal on it is not a particularly clever thing to do, to the extent that the law precludes any type of stopping on a slip way whatever due to the dangers involved. I would therefore question the exemption clause above being used in this circumstance. Regulation 16 of the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 provides for exemptions to and the relaxation of these Regulations.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say -
(d) where he does so in the exercise of his duty as a constable a traffic officer when in uniform, as a member of the National Crime Agency for the purposes of that Agency, or as a member of an ambulance service or as an employee of of a fire and rescue authority employed for the purposes of that authority;
Would make for an interesting challenge I would imagine. I am quite sure that there is provision somewhere that states that the police must execute their duties in a safe a secure manner. This to me is neither safe or secure
vonhosen said:
Chim said:
vonhosen said:
Eg All motorway regs
Regulation 16 of the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 provides for exemptions to and the relaxation of these Regulations.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say -
(d) where he does so in the exercise of his duty as a constable a traffic officer when in uniform, as a member of the National Crime Agency for the purposes of that Agency, or as a member of an ambulance service or as an employee of of a fire and rescue authority employed for the purposes of that authority;
Thanks for this, its not very clear though, don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at speed traps here, what I am questioning is the safety element. Blocking and a full lane of the slip road and parking at a diagonal on it is not a particularly clever thing to do, to the extent that the law precludes any type of stopping on a slip way whatever due to the dangers involved. I would therefore question the exemption clause above being used in this circumstance. Regulation 16 of the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 provides for exemptions to and the relaxation of these Regulations.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say -
(d) where he does so in the exercise of his duty as a constable a traffic officer when in uniform, as a member of the National Crime Agency for the purposes of that Agency, or as a member of an ambulance service or as an employee of of a fire and rescue authority employed for the purposes of that authority;
Would make for an interesting challenge I would imagine. I am quite sure that there is provision somewhere that states that the police must execute their duties in a safe a secure manner. This to me is neither safe or secure
Reg 16, for instance, is very clear in relation to Motorway Regs.
vonhosen said:
Chim said:
vonhosen said:
Chim said:
vonhosen said:
Eg All motorway regs
Regulation 16 of the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 provides for exemptions to and the relaxation of these Regulations.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say -
(d) where he does so in the exercise of his duty as a constable a traffic officer when in uniform, as a member of the National Crime Agency for the purposes of that Agency, or as a member of an ambulance service or as an employee of of a fire and rescue authority employed for the purposes of that authority;
Thanks for this, its not very clear though, don't get me wrong, I am not having a go at speed traps here, what I am questioning is the safety element. Blocking and a full lane of the slip road and parking at a diagonal on it is not a particularly clever thing to do, to the extent that the law precludes any type of stopping on a slip way whatever due to the dangers involved. I would therefore question the exemption clause above being used in this circumstance. Regulation 16 of the Motorways Traffic (England and Wales) Regulations 1982 provides for exemptions to and the relaxation of these Regulations.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say -
(d) where he does so in the exercise of his duty as a constable a traffic officer when in uniform, as a member of the National Crime Agency for the purposes of that Agency, or as a member of an ambulance service or as an employee of of a fire and rescue authority employed for the purposes of that authority;
Would make for an interesting challenge I would imagine. I am quite sure that there is provision somewhere that states that the police must execute their duties in a safe a secure manner. This to me is neither safe or secure
Reg 16, for instance, is very clear in relation to Motorway Regs.
A speeding conviction gained from being parked there?
mph1977 said:
Chim said:
Yes, that is one challenge that could be brought, for a conviction to be upheld the evidence should be gathered in a legal way, if the placement of the vehicle is found to be illegal then the conviction would not stand. Would also be interesting if an accident did occur due to the parked police car on the slip road.
wibble wibble wibble
as has been pointed out there are exemptions from the law for the the emergency services and the TO service , evrgo their actions in this situation are not illegal / unlawful / not on their oath or any other such phrase.
vonhosen said:
Cliftonite said:
vonhosen said:
What do you think the offence he is committing is?
Being a knob?Obstruction?
What would be the offence if I placed my car there?
Who couldn't get down the slip road?
What offence would have been committed by you being stopped there?
vonhosen said:
Chim said:
vonhosen said:
Cliftonite said:
vonhosen said:
What do you think the offence he is committing is?
Being a knob?Obstruction?
What would be the offence if I placed my car there?
Who couldn't get down the slip road?
What offence would have been committed by you being stopped there?
You were earlier quoting what google threw up in relation to Motorways (then said this was a bypass not a motorway) & I showed you that Police are exempt from Motorway Regs.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 20:56
You MUST NOT stop on the carriageway, hard shoulder, slip road, central reservation or verge except in an emergency, or when told to do so by the police, an emergency sign or by flashing red light signals.
Do not stop on the hard shoulder to either make or receive mobile phone calls.
Law MTR regs 5, 8 & 10
As to your "generic" and very unspecific piece of the legislation regards exemption, it is for the court to decide whether the exemption applies in specific circumstances. I would say in this instance the exemption would not apply as there are perfectly legal areas where the police can carry out this particular duty
vonhosen said:
Reg 16 exempts Police from regs 5, 8 & 10.
The law is clear, if it's for a Police duty then they are exempt under Reg 16.
Whether there is another option is irrelevant for that.
Was this even a motorway?
I'll ask again, have you got a google maps link to show exactly where they were?
This is, as another poster mentioned above, a very common and regular occurrence here in Scotland. Slip roads are used as speed traps on the M8 and other motorways daily.The law is clear, if it's for a Police duty then they are exempt under Reg 16.
Whether there is another option is irrelevant for that.
Was this even a motorway?
I'll ask again, have you got a google maps link to show exactly where they were?
Can I also just say that the responses, namely, arrogance and abusive replies I have received from what what appear to be serving police officers in answer to a very polite and genuine question are utterly disgusting, it is no surprise that respect is being quickly lost for the police if this is a measure of attitudes to the general public
vonhosen said:
Where have I been arrogant or abusive towards you?
You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.
No, you are merely being anal, I will point to the post above yours with regards the others. I would expand on this by stating that I hoped to enter into an interesting discussion on the topic, one where sensible discourse could be shared and view points taken. Instead I have encountered nothing other than rudeness and immaturity. In your case Vanhoosen you have provided nothing more than a prescriptive exemption statement that appears to take the stance that all and any activity carried out by the police on any given motorway, despite its legality or obvious danger to the public, is fine as they are expemt from the law.You asked a question & I gave you an answer telling you what the law is.
They are committing no offence under the legislation you quoted for stopping on motorways as part of their Police duty. The same legislation exempts them for that purpose.
That attitude actually disturbs me one hell of a lot more than anything else.
Edited by Chim on Thursday 26th February 21:39
mph1977 said:
like so many of these threads it;s pick or more of the three following
1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger
Please point me to the applicable one of the above three with regards to my genuine and polite enquiry. You sir are an ignorant disgrace to the uniform you wear.1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger
mph1977 said:
Chim said:
mph1977 said:
like so many of these threads it;s pick or more of the three following
1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger
Please point me to the applicable one of the above three with regards to my genuine and polite enquiry. You sir are an ignorant disgrace to the uniform you wear.1. free wibble
2. jealousy
3. unconscious incompetence / Dunning - Kruger
an awful lot of the complaints aobut exemptions are vbased in Jealousy, combined with the illusionary superiority that comes when one does not know what one does not know aobut an area of practise.
on a number of occasions in this thread it has been related to you that
1. exemptions from the law do exist for Emergency Services and the TO service.
2. there are relevant exemptions in this case on both motorways and none motorway roads (and in the case of none motorway roads stopping at the roadside is not illegal unless it;s either a no-stopping section or you cause an obstruction.
3. exemptions are regularly brought into question at court ( see ongoing saga over Ambulance RRVs thanks to Manchester Hatzola), however it does not appear that there are any well know cases regarding this exemption in the opinion of Police Officers, Trainers , other emergency services personnel and lawyers.
I wish to understand why the police are conducting one of their duties in a clearly unsafe manner, that being, stopping and parking vertically on a MOTORWAY slip road when this duty could be safely performed easily and without the need to break the law at another point on the Motorway. In fact, there are specific areas built on the Motorway for this very purpose.
Quoting a generic exemption statement does not in any way answer the above question. As to your assertion of "wibble", "jealousy" or the ridiculous "unconscious incompetence" to which you appear to have applied the recently adopted trendy term that you have just learned of Dunner-Kruger effect, I have displayed none of these traits and certainly mot the cognitive bias of dunning-Kruger that you are quite clearly using completely out of context.
vonhosen said:
You keep talking about exempted behaviour as illegal behaviour. That very behaviour ceases to be illegal under the legislation for those exempted from it.
Just as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).
There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the facts. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.
That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.
The exemption can only apply though if they are carrying out their duties in a safe and controlled manner. They are clearly not in this instance, the danger to the public is clear, they can avoid putting the public in Danger by undertaking this duty in a place that is safe to do so and they can do this easily without impact to that duty. My point therefore is simple, the exemption does NOT apply and they are breaking the lawJust as it's illegal for you to exceed the speed limit, but it isn't for them to where they are doing so for a Police purpose (& again a Police purpose is very wooly).
There isn't any 'attitude' in my post, it's just matter of fact.
I'm merely presenting the facts. The Police can stop on the motorways where you may not where it is part of their Police duty.
That doesn't mean I'm suggesting that the Police are above the law in any way, just they are acting within it when stopped on the motorway as part of their duty.
Edited by Chim on Thursday 26th February 22:18
Mopar440 said:
Chim said:
Can I also just say that the responses, namely, arrogance and abusive replies I have received from what what appear to be serving police officers...
No serving police officers replying to this thread as far as I know.vonhosen said:
Where are you getting your legal authority for that argument?
The legislation places no such burden on them.
ie
A Police officer is exempt from speeding where it's for a Police purpose.
If he exceeds the speed limit dangerously whilst doing so for a Police purpose, it doesn't render his exemption from the speed limit invalid. He can't now be prosecuted for speeding because the speed he did was dangerous in the circumstances. You have to look for other legislation where he has no exemption such as dangerous driving.
So it is with the motorway regs. He can't be prosecuted under the motorway regs for something which the motorway regs have already exempted him.
There are many many instances where the police have been prosecuted for dangerous driving by the CPS, the exception has very strict limits, in many cases the prosecution is brought in terms of the officer conducting a pursuit or response to an emergency call in manner that created unnecessary danger to the public. I could site case after case of this. In my mind this applies here, the car in question is posing a completely unnecessary danger to the public, at some point someone is going to be involved in accident due to this practice, at that point I would imagine that the CPS will prosecute based on this provision. The simple question would be asked, s=could you have carried out your duty in a safer way without impacting of any kind to this duty, if the answer is yes, and it is, they will be found guiltyThe legislation places no such burden on them.
ie
A Police officer is exempt from speeding where it's for a Police purpose.
If he exceeds the speed limit dangerously whilst doing so for a Police purpose, it doesn't render his exemption from the speed limit invalid. He can't now be prosecuted for speeding because the speed he did was dangerous in the circumstances. You have to look for other legislation where he has no exemption such as dangerous driving.
So it is with the motorway regs. He can't be prosecuted under the motorway regs for something which the motorway regs have already exempted him.
Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 26th February 22:23
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