NIP m25 variable 50. Bugger.

[richardrsc]

Nooo. Come home today to two letters.

The first one contains my replacement driving license as I've moved house - it has 0 points on it for the first time in years as they've all come off. Yay.

Next letter is a NIP for the heinous crime of doing 62 in a variable 50 on the m25. Probably one of those variable 50's they put up when it's all clear to confuse people. Bah.

As much as I expect to have to pay up like normal, despite doing nothing in the least bit unsafe (surely going under 80 is within the spirit of the law on a variable limit?), I was just wondering if there are any good wheezes to get out of these at the moment?

I suspect I'm guilty as charged, but tbh I didn't notice a flash - I do tend not to stamp on the breaks for no good reason on the motorway though, particularly if there are cars behind me. Is there any leeway between when the signs go on and when they become active?

[richardrsc]

loafer123 said:

Surely going from 60 to 30 is extremely common - why are they struggling with 70-50? Poor observancy?

It's not really a good idea to rapidly slow from *0-50 when the roads clear ahead and there's a car behind you. I don't know if the guy behind me has seen it, or has any intention of slowing.

I tend just to ease off rather than slamming the breaks on. Obviously this is the incorrect manoeuvre!

[richardrsc]

speedyguy said:

A bit left field and I'll probably get flamed

Maybe the 50's are put up automatically worked out by the MIDAS loops in the road surface (or being the M25 the new laser measurement devices) and algorithmic mathematics to smooth the traffic flows down to keep traffic flowing steadily rather than the stop/go phantom queues of the old days as they know what is happening a couple of miles ahead out of your field of vision

There again i could be talking complete bks

I don't doubt that there's an element of that somewhere, but I regularly do the m25 and I've been on it when its really clear at 9 or 10 at night, and its randomly going from 40,50,40,60,nsl,60,50 for no reason at all. It's no wonder people ignore it.

[richardrsc]

V8 Fettler said:

Where on the M25 were you captured?

jnc 18-17 anticlockwise 19.50pm

[richardrsc]

speedyguy said:

A bit left field and I'll probably get flamed

Maybe the 50's are put up automatically worked out by the MIDAS loops in the road surface (or being the M25 the new laser measurement devices) and algorithmic mathematics to smooth the traffic flows down to keep traffic flowing steadily rather than the stop/go phantom queues of the old days as they know what is happening a couple of miles ahead out of your field of vision

There again i could be talking complete bks

So speedy - you're going along at , lets say 80 in the outside lane. You check your mirror and have someone fairly close to your tail. You see the limit ahead change to 50 a hundred meters out.

Do you

A. Ease off the accelerator.
B. Slam on the brakes.

[richardrsc]

Magic919 said:

You don't need to react if it changes when you are 100 metres away.

Do you not? Please can you refer me to the law that says that?

[richardrsc]

bad company said:

You could change lane then slam on the brakes - obviously that only works if the lane on your left is clear.

Ok, for arguments sake, the middle lane is full of Nissan Micras doing 62 miles an hour like normal.

I think what I'm trying to get at, is that slamming on the breaks for any reason on the motorway when there is no immediate threat ahead is silly. Easing off is, in my view, the sensible option. However doing that gets you 3 points and a fine.

Edited by richardrsc on Saturday 18th April 11:33

Edited by richardrsc on Saturday 18th April 11:34

[richardrsc]

Devil2575 said:

False dichotomy. Neither, I'd brake gently to start with increasing once I'm sure the car behind has clocked me. Simply easing off doesn't light up the brakes so the car behind is less likely to notice you slowing, at least initially.

At 80mph, you are travelling ~36 metres a second. You have under 3 seconds in which to pass that gantry at the 50 limit.

You spend the first 1.5 seconds breaking and waiting to see if the car behind you is slowing. Now you really hammer the breaks on?

The road ahead is clear.

[richardrsc]

SS2. said:

The M25 Motorway (Junctions 16 to 23) (Variable Speed Limits) Regulations 2013

Ah, OK you win that one.

So that makes it even more difficult. Is the car behind going to stop? How long has the sign been active? Should I speed up to make it through within the 10 seconds? They need to put a countdown indicator on them to give us a sporting chance.

Edited by richardrsc on Saturday 18th April 14:50

[richardrsc]

Devil2575 said:

You're trying to create a hypothetical situation to prove a point but I don't think it's valid. You could equally create a similar hypothetical situation approaching a set of traffic lights, yet how often do people have to hammer the brakes to stop in time.

Honestly I can only assume you don't drive the m25 much if you can't see this situation - or you're a 60mph kind of guy anyway.

But regardless, so what's the best way to weasel out of it? The NIP was curiously indicates that I was snapped at precisely to the minute with no seconds. I wonder if they can back it up with a log of what time the display changed? And if the units are both synced to the same NTP server.

Yeh I know realistically I'll probably have to swallow it, but it's nonsense. As far as I'm concerned I was complying with the spirit of the law by not doing 80 like normal.

Edited by richardrsc on Saturday 18th April 14:47

[richardrsc]

Funk said:

I hate to be That Guy but this is a car forum; it's 'brakes' and 'braking'.

You are that guy. Sorry!

[richardrsc]

Monkeylegend said:

This should put to bed the myth that these cameras are for show only.

To be fair, they clearly don't work very often. I'm not saying more than that.!

[richardrsc]

Phatboy317 said:

How many people don't know that?

Pretty much everyone. Could I pull a figure from my butt and suggest 98%? And if you happen to be looking at something else when they change - maybe at for example, possible hazards, you won't know to the second when they changed.

I think a lot of people suggesting that it's always gridlocked must be hitting it during the day - I always do it in the evenings (between 6 and 10 pm) towards the latter end of that period it can be pretty clear - still get silly limits through.

[richardrsc]

Devil2575 said:

Doesn't this rubbish all the hypothetical scenarios made up by people trying to support their arguments...

Well it's rather clear you didn't know about it, as you're suggested manoeuvre on noticing one 100m out was to brake, checking that the car behind you was also slowing, and then braking some more. In less than 3 seconds.

I wonder how many other people are as ignorant of the grace period as you were yesterday?

Glad you don't drive the m25 much as I'd hate to be behind you.

Edited by richardrsc on Sunday 19th April 14:04

[richardrsc]

Devil2575 said:

So what? My response was to suggest a safe manoeuvre which in the circumstances was entirely reasonable.
I was saying that you didn't need to either stamp on the brakes and risk causing a crash or get a ticket. My thoughts on this seemed to be correct.
Perhaps if people stopped making up stories to trying and prove their half baked views there would be less silly posts on PH...

Breaking from 80 to 40 quickly with a car close behind you on the motorway, when the way ahead is clear is a safe manoeuvre?

As I said, if you haven't seen that situation on the m25, you clearly haven't been driving it.

[richardrsc]

2013BRM said:

I'm afraid, Richard, that Devil is from that alternative universe invented by VH whereby anything that suggests our current speed enforcement infrastructure is in any way lacking is met with absolute denial. At least I had the grace to accept our experiences were different and not resort to belittlement

Yes it does seem that way!

I did that journey again tonight, as I do a couple of times a week, and can confirm that they definitely do go from nothing to a 40 every now and again.

I see the current PH lead story is also talking this exact same hypothetical nonsense!

[richardrsc]

Devil2575 said:

So how many crashes have resulted in the new enforced variable limits? The post I responded too was 50 mph, not 40. It also works on the premise that someone who is prepared to do 80 mph in a 70 limit then feels the need to stick exactly to the new limit. Maybe you should go back and read my post and you'll see that I didn't say braking quickly.

The manoeuvre is either safe or not, regardless of what is going on in the road ahead.

Maybe the M25 is full of people who don't understand there is a grace period and would rather hammer the brakes and risk a crash rather than safely slow at a sensible rate. Or maybe you and others are desperately making up or exaggerating scenarios to try and prove some point.

I have no idea how many have been caused, but it's not exactly infrequent to see crashes on the outside lane. I suspect they are a combination of factors, this would certainly add to it.

I'm afraid it's completely factually correct to say that your approach is far more likely to cause an accident than mine, however legally I'm sure you're spot on. Just goes to show what a ridiculous system we have.

So, just how frequently have you driven that section recently?

[richardrsc]

Devil2575 said:

I rarely if ever comment on what I think of actual limits or enforcement. However I don't buy a lot of the rubbish spouted on here by people trying to claim that some how speed enforcement makes out roads less safe.

Braking rapidly in front of a car on the motorway is less safe than doing 62 mph in a 50 mph limit on a relatively clear road. I have no doubt about that. Have you read the lead article today?