No foreigners need apply!

[Andy Zarse]

My other half is an EU national (Dutch) though permanently resident in the UK for four years, successfully running a business here, fully registered with HMRC etc.

It looks like she's being turned away by a car leasing broker and their lender on the sole grounds of "not being British". In fact their joint application makes clear British only need apply, and all applications from foreigners will not be proceeded with.

To my mind this is naked discrimination, (race for the purposes of the law is defined as including nationality) and in so far as my research shows, their behaviour is illegal on a number of different levels, not least the Financial Conduct Authority's Treating Customers Fairly regulations (both the broker and the lender being a regulated institutions of the FCA), EU trade legislation and UK race discrimination law.

Frankly I'm bloody livid about this. It's a modern day equivalent of "No blacks, no dogs no Irish". My son, who happens to have been born in Holland but has lived his entire life in the UK, is a Dutch passport holder. Is he liable to be treated as a second class citizen for the rest of his days too?

Mainly just getting it off my chest but if anyone has anything useful to add please feel free!

[Andy Zarse]

ging84 said:

Can almost Guarantee you have got the wrong end of the stick and this has everything to residential status, not ethnicity.

paintman said:

Think we need sight of their T&Cs before any useful comments can be made one way or the other.

I can assure you I have not got the wrong end of the stick. And here is the actual quotation from them:

"*if Non British passport holder the application does not meet the necessary criteria and we are unable to proceed any further with this particular application."

A passport does not confer any residential status, nor can this information be inferred from it.

[Andy Zarse]

ging84 said:

Andy Zarse said:

I can assure you I have not got the wrong end of the stick. And here is the actual quotation from them:

"*if Non British passport holder the application does not meet the necessary criteria and we are unable to proceed any further with this particular application."

A passport does not confer any residential status, nor can this information be inferred from it.

That does not prove they won't lease a car to someone non British, just that the particular method of application requires a british passport.
Have you contacted them an asked them if there is a way to apply if you don't have a passport ?

So explain how can anyone who is non British possibly hold a British passport? Thus all foreigners excluded.

This is clearly saying if you hold a passport other than a British one then forget it; it is not saying forget it if you don't hold any passport.

[Andy Zarse]

Thank you all, the matter has been addressed by the broker to our satisfaction. And just to confirm, it did mean that not being a UK citizen was indeed the issue.

[Andy Zarse]

Kiran Kumar said:

otolith said:

hi test

Residency status, if not nationality, does seem to be an issue in auto loan reporting; the BoE loan level data reporting template for auto loans has a field for residency (<3 years, >= 3 years, not resident). This is data intended primarily for assessment of the underlying credit risk of the loan pool.

I have no issue with assessing residency status. None at all. I do have an issue with discrimination solely on the basis of nationality. It has been 100% illegal in this country for over forty years. To make matters worse, it turned out the lender at fault was bloody French. Yes, I know!!

[Andy Zarse]

KFC said:

Andy Zarse said:

I have no issue with assessing residency status. None at all. I do have an issue with discrimination solely on the basis of nationality. It has been 100% illegal in this country for over forty years. To make matters worse, it turned out the lender at fault was bloody French. Yes, I know!!

You seem to be happy to completely ignore the fact that handing a set of car keys to a foreigner with 3 months lease up front is horrifically more risky for the lender though. Or is it just their tough luck if they lose a few cars to Bosnians and Poles taking them straight home?

At what point do I argue that the lender should not undertake due diligence and a proper and thorough underwriting process?

Would you think it acceptable to advertise your house for rent and put "British only please" because you don't want foreigners who'll rip up the Axminster and Pogenphol kitchen and cart it off to Umbungoland. What bit of breaking the law are you failing to understand here?

[Andy Zarse]

KFC said:

Meoricin said:

Why do you think that foreign nationals who have lived in the UK for years are more likely to steal a car than British nationals?

The longer they've been in UK, the less likely it is.

Foreigners are far more likely to move back home than born and bred Brits are to move abroad. So its perfectly reasonable to assume you're taking more risk with the foreigners. Even if they don't deliberately steal the car, they could just abandon it and stop making the payments. I've seen Brits who did manage to finance cars here just walk away from the agreements when they went home, as they knew full well nothing was going to happen to them because of it. They didn't steal the cars, they just dumped them at the lease company office so its firmly in the 'civil' area rather than a crime and zero is done about it.

Andy Zarse said:

Would you think it acceptable to advertise your house for rent and put "British only please" because you don't want foreigners who'll rip up the Axminster and Pogenphol kitchen and cart it off to Umbungoland. What bit of breaking the law are you failing to understand here?

Common sense would tell you not to advertise 'no nigerians', even if you plan to discriminate. But I certainly wouldn't rent my UK house to a single Nigerian bloke. As I can't be bothered with the risk of potentially dealing with all the fallout of his credit card frauds for the next 6 months. I'll take the low risk option of renting to some bloke who's never left the UK and far less likely to go anywhere, thanks.

Like I say I've been on the receiving end of similar as a foreigner abroad... I have absolutely no problem with it. Yes I know its not legal, but I don't care as I can fully understand the point of view of the guy renting me a villa. He wants 6 months deposit because he knows he's on a hiding to nothing if I stop paying or just vanish.

Far be it from me to play the race card, but bugger me, you are beyond a joke.

"Even if they don't deliberately steal the car...". Jesus H Christ chairing a BNP conference, it's like you think it's a foregone conclusion the swarthy thieving foreign fkers will have it crated up at Felixstowe before the ink is even dry on the lease agreement, and if they don't it's an unexpected bonus.

Nor do I give a stuff what you've been on the receiving end of abroad; we have certain standards, and laws, in this country. It is reasonable to expect them to be met by major financial institutions together with those set out by the Regulator.

[Andy Zarse]

TooMany2cvs said:

KFC said:

If they straight up refused to give me any sort of credit or trust whatsoever, I'd think its a bit weird.

Which is EXACTLY what is happening here, and you're defending.

Exactly correct.

The first question on the form after name and address is Nationality; then in brackets it says about not entertaining non-British applicants.

[Andy Zarse]

kapiteinlangzaam said:

When I was working in Luxembourg (as a Brit) in 2006 they wouldn't even give us Jonny foreigners debit cards at the bank, as we had no status.

Want some money, visit the bank mon-fri 9-5 thank you please.

How about that for blantant reverse BNP craziness.

Presumably once you'd banked there for a period of time, and established your bona fides, further services would be extended?

[Andy Zarse]

Four Litre said:

KFC said:

Political correct nonsense.

OP, back in the real world, would you want to lease a car to some bloke from Ukraine with no real ties here and no chance whatsoever of you recovering any money if he goes home with the car and defaults?

Im sure the OP and his Lady are real stand up members of society, however if your hiring out an expensive asset why would you take the risk of them driving it off into the sunset? More than likely to somewhere that they wouldnt get it back from.

If that was my business I wouldnt bother taking the ris as is it really worth it.

Then you must be thick if you think someone is going to fk off with a Skoda Yeti to Holland leaving a job, a child and every other asset behind.

What about running a credit check, looking to assess other financial metrics; do they own any UK property/assets, a private pension, do they make payments on time for utilities etc? On the electoral roll? Kids at school? Any manner of other info in the public domain.

But no, not you. You'd rather rely on racial prejudice. Bloody Dutch coming over here, why don't they fk off back to the jungle on their banana boat?

[Andy Zarse]

TooMany2cvs said:

karona said:

Kack all to do with race. A Brit couple moved into our village in Bulgaria, with a brand new Kia 4x4. They put Bulgarian plates on it, lived here for a year, then fekked off home, selling the car to pay for the move back to the UK.
Six months later someone knocked on my door looking for them and the car.
It was taken on finance, the week before they moved out here.

So, umm, that was a British couple financing a car in Britain...?

[Andy Zarse]

Hol said:

Eclassy said:

Hol said:

You really WANT this to be about racism and not a business model - don't you?

Why??

But it is.

The OP's wife is dutch but lives here. She was discriminated against because of the passport she holds and nothing else.

No, she was ineligible to apply, because she did not hold a UK passport. Not because she was Dutch.

No, you misunderstand me, I suspect wilfully, so please stop playing the reverse race card.

It's neither about racism, nor any particular business model. As I have said on a number of previous post, I have no problem with a lender/broker establishing stringent underwriting criteria so I would be grateful if you'd kindly stop telling me what I think.

It is simply about a failure to abide by a basic law, not to mention a number of obligations set out by the financial regulator, which makes this a tolerable and equitable country in which to live and transact business.

[Andy Zarse]

KFC said:

Andy Zarse said:

Then you must be thick if you think someone is going to fk off with a Skoda Yeti to Holland leaving a job, a child and every other asset behind.

What about running a credit check, looking to assess other financial metrics; do they own any UK property/assets, a private pension, do they make payments on time for utilities etc? On the electoral roll? Kids at school? Any manner of other info in the public domain.

But no, not you. You'd rather rely on racial prejudice. Bloody Dutch coming over here, why don't they fk off back to the jungle on their banana boat?

Maybe the mrs will throw you out, no house or access to the kids and just decide to bugger off back to where you came from. Its still going to leave someone else holding the bag for the car finance, whether its a Skoda Yeti or a 'real' car.

All I'm seeing is moan moan moan... even though you must know yourself there would be very good reasons for what they're doing.

How unreasonable of me to expect British companies to obey British laws and regulations set out by the UK's Financial Conduct Authority. As to her clearing off to lawless darkest Holland with our child, well you're showing ignorance of the law again. She cannot take the child out of the UK without my express written permission. I'd have thought someone like you who apparently knows everything about everything would know this.

[Andy Zarse]

Hol said:

Thanks for clarifying your position.

My original honest question was based entirely on how I read what you had written. Not on what you thought you meant, when you wrote it.

[Andy Zarse]

KFC said:

Andy Zarse said:

She cannot take the child out of the UK without my express written permission.

Like that has stopped 1000's of parents.


Anyway I'll leave you to get back to living the dream of financing a Skoda

Oh you silly sausage, you're so quaint and out of touch you really don't know much about how the modern world works do you?

Don't worry we found out the hard way about trying to travel solo with the infant without the relevant paperwork. I had to drive back to Gatwick to sign a letter of authority on a Friday night and wave them away a second time, when by rights I should have been safely in the pub with the boys. Without it you can't even get past Easyjet check-in these days.

Just to show you up again, and your homespun provincial bigotry, you might like to learn the Dutch don't really go much for car envy, and being a practical people I think they'd see your comment about Skoda and the most efficient route to ownership as marking you as a rather vulgar and coarse fellow.

Anyway I'll leave you to grumble about the darkies and that you can't get Izal Medicated anymore.

[Andy Zarse]

Vaud said:

Andy Zarse said:

Oh you silly sausage, you're so quaint and out of touch you really don't know much about how the modern world works do you?

Don't worry we found out the hard way about trying to travel solo with the infant without the relevant paperwork. I had to drive back to Gatwick to sign a letter of authority on a Friday night and wave them away a second time, when by rights I should have been safely in the pub with the boys. Without it you can't even get past Easyjet check-in these days.

Interesting - my wife flew to France last year without me - I was driving over. I had read that it could be an issue, and drafted a letter, etc but it wasn't asked for once (Jet 2) in either direction. Must be an airline decision I guess?

Jet2 are a bit silly if they don't ask to see the authority letter, AFAIUI they can be heavily fined if something later goes wrong. BA and Easyjet always insist on seeing it in our experience. I also once even had Dutch passport officer on the phone to make sure the letter was valid by asking me silly trick questions; and that was for a Dutch mother and Dutch child going home to England! I accept anyone could forge such a document, but you could be in a world of pain if you got caught passing a forged document.

[Andy Zarse]

Vaud said:

Interesting, two points.

1) "You might be asked for the letter at a UK or foreign border" - which implies it is not mandatory for the airlines to ask...

2) "You automatically have parental responsibility if you’re the child’s mother, but you still need the permission of anyone else with parental responsibility before you take the child abroad."
I will need to be careful on this as my daughter has a different name to me.


Although it says "taking a child abroad" does anyone have experience of this flying domestically? Any airlines extend this rule to UK only flights?

Never had a problem travelling domestically, but presumably it's more lenient?

Re the different names, very good point. Yes, my OH also has a different surname to my son, who has mine. This may be a reason why our mother/son combo get strongly flagged? Anyway she always carries a copy of his birth certificate too, as belt and braces.