Buying a building site ROW issue
Discussion
My solicitor has just went on holiday so the wife and I are pulling our hair out as we have just found out that the site we are buying has right of way issues.
Vendor claims they know nothing about this ROW. The site was being sold to us as "private lane, building site and small field" by the estate agent.
What I am asking here do we have a case for abandonment by the farmer?
We are trying to buy a site that was sold to a developer in 2007 by a farmer. Developer went bust shortly after and the site was repossessed. It has only recently been put on the market.
There was to be a long lane into the site and it has been written into the deeds that the farmer has domestic ROW and farming ROW along this lane. The lane was to serve two houses but we are buying the lot as planning failed on the other site (a field).
The lane was never built. The land has been completely sealed off since 2007 and is impassable due to self seeded trees now several feet tall and dense overgrowth. The farmer has access to his land from other places and has never used this area to access his land since 2007, possibly longer but we know for sure since 2007.
He has the domestic right of way in place to make the adjoining land more valuable but he wont get planning as the law here has recently changed and a planning expert has been brought on board to confirm this.
We offered to buy the ROW from the farmer but he gave us a polite "no". He also stated he doesn't need it but it makes the surrounding land "more valuable".
I'm worried that we might spend thousands on building a driveway and the farmer decides he wants to use it to access a field even though he has access elsewhere.
I'm in panic mode right now.
Vendor claims they know nothing about this ROW. The site was being sold to us as "private lane, building site and small field" by the estate agent.
What I am asking here do we have a case for abandonment by the farmer?
We are trying to buy a site that was sold to a developer in 2007 by a farmer. Developer went bust shortly after and the site was repossessed. It has only recently been put on the market.
There was to be a long lane into the site and it has been written into the deeds that the farmer has domestic ROW and farming ROW along this lane. The lane was to serve two houses but we are buying the lot as planning failed on the other site (a field).
The lane was never built. The land has been completely sealed off since 2007 and is impassable due to self seeded trees now several feet tall and dense overgrowth. The farmer has access to his land from other places and has never used this area to access his land since 2007, possibly longer but we know for sure since 2007.
He has the domestic right of way in place to make the adjoining land more valuable but he wont get planning as the law here has recently changed and a planning expert has been brought on board to confirm this.
We offered to buy the ROW from the farmer but he gave us a polite "no". He also stated he doesn't need it but it makes the surrounding land "more valuable".
I'm worried that we might spend thousands on building a driveway and the farmer decides he wants to use it to access a field even though he has access elsewhere.
I'm in panic mode right now.
Yes I will wait for the solicitor to get back. I'm just chucking it out there for inspiration.
I won't act without proper legal advice. I have ran everything past the solicitor in an attempt to leave no stone unturned.
I might need someone who specialises in this. Would my solicitor do this on my behalf or will I have to leave to go elsewhere. Time is pressing now.
I have just found out the farmer won't relinquish the ROW and I was hoping if there might be a case for abandonment.
I would only go down that route if the farmer started messing us about. I'm prepared to revise my offer and take a gamble on the site if the vendor accepts.
slow_poke said:
Disuse is not abandonment. Just because Farmer has not used his ROW doesn't mean he has abandoned it, it just means he hasn't used it.
It's his. There's nothing you can do about it. Accept that and make your decisions based on that.
Yup got that so what if I buy the land and don't touch it for say a year from now and the farmer "suddenly" wants to travel up the right of way, can he claim it is blocked due to the state it is in and force me to clear it?It's his. There's nothing you can do about it. Accept that and make your decisions based on that.
I have no plans to build until possibly new year and even then I am only going to clear up to the building site and not further to the field as marked on the map. I will be leaving that as is.
Breadvan72 said:
If your solicitor lacks the expertise that you seek, he or she can instruct specialist counsel, or you can find another solicitor. A good lawyer, however, is not the same as the lawyer who always tells you what you want to hear. I am no property lawyer, so I do not know whether or not there is anything you can do about the right of way. I would not be at all surprised, however, if slow poke is correct.
Well it's certainly looking that way. Thanks for replying.I'll keep digging as I really want to know worst case scenario. My life savings is going into this and it's a dam good site apart from this headache.
Last thing I want to wake up to is a lane full of cows.
elanfan said:
Going off at a tangent is there anyway that preservation orders could be applied of already apply to the trees? Your arbocultural officer at the council will advise you. If these then block his ROW then he could be screwed???
Worth looking into indeed. I know of another development that was severely delayed and curtailed by TPOs.Thanks for all the replies however I can't go on anything more until I speak to the solicitor as I now have all this to talk to him about.
Farmer now says he only has Farming ROW on part of the lane but Domestic ROW over all of it.
Original Developer Says farmer only has Domestic ROW and has given me some documents that seem to support this but I don't really know what it all means but he states that's how it was sold to him by the farmer.
To add, the Farmer has been very honest and upfront about everything. I'm just really concerned about the future when he isn't around.
I think our solicitor has uncovered something more to all this but the letter we got on Friday is as clear as mud to me.
I'll update.
An update.
The plot thickens......
I get to speak to the solicitor on Friday, however I was sent the ROW docs to look over them complete with no explanation, so I'm a bit lost.
From looking at the maps the farming and unrestricted ROW actually runs along a lane that runs parallel to the property we wish to buy and then on past it to another road.
This lane isn't on our property but a ROW is mentioned on our title???? It's from 1947 and is marked by 3 points X Y and Z and mentions a laneway and a yard that is there (now derelict) but not part of the property we wish to buy.
Totally confused now. The domestic ROW is clearly marked but that isn't an issue for now.
I spoke to the developer and he told me that there was never a lane on the property we are intending to buy. He bought a strip of land that was part of a field to make a lane and fenced it off from the farmers field on the left. This other laneway is on the right and runs alongside it. It is gated, locked and fenced off from ours.
Why it's mentioned on our title I have no idea.
The plot thickens......
I get to speak to the solicitor on Friday, however I was sent the ROW docs to look over them complete with no explanation, so I'm a bit lost.
From looking at the maps the farming and unrestricted ROW actually runs along a lane that runs parallel to the property we wish to buy and then on past it to another road.
This lane isn't on our property but a ROW is mentioned on our title???? It's from 1947 and is marked by 3 points X Y and Z and mentions a laneway and a yard that is there (now derelict) but not part of the property we wish to buy.
Totally confused now. The domestic ROW is clearly marked but that isn't an issue for now.
I spoke to the developer and he told me that there was never a lane on the property we are intending to buy. He bought a strip of land that was part of a field to make a lane and fenced it off from the farmers field on the left. This other laneway is on the right and runs alongside it. It is gated, locked and fenced off from ours.
Why it's mentioned on our title I have no idea.
Rude-boy said:
OP I am more worried that your solicitor has not left you with a clear understanding of the situation, regardless of what way it swings.
Seriously this sort of thing is bread and butter to anyone who even half fancies them self as a property specialist and should have been knocked into the long grass/flagged as a genuine issue within 10 minutes of being noted on the title.
You need to be sure that you have full confidence in your solicitor and that they put their advice on this in writing to you. I say this as someone who specialises in property law and deals with these sorts of issues regularly so long as they stay non contentious, which is when I pass the file to the Rottweilers.
I have now no confidence whatsoever at this point. I want to hit the guy with as many questions as possible this week to get to the bottom of this. Seriously this sort of thing is bread and butter to anyone who even half fancies them self as a property specialist and should have been knocked into the long grass/flagged as a genuine issue within 10 minutes of being noted on the title.
You need to be sure that you have full confidence in your solicitor and that they put their advice on this in writing to you. I say this as someone who specialises in property law and deals with these sorts of issues regularly so long as they stay non contentious, which is when I pass the file to the Rottweilers.
I know nothing of this sort of thing and I am just running on gut instinct to make sure I have all bases covered hence the reason I am asking the solicitor to sort it out and explain it all in a manner the wife and I can relate to.
The solicitor has already told us not to go ahead but then again the first day we met with him he wanted us to sign the contract. I refused as I wanted to know about possible ROWs which at that point he couldn't answer and now here we are.
Anyway if there is no satisfaction by next week he's getting dumped but time isn't on our side right now.
I need a Rottweiler or two....
Rude-boy said:
If your location had been E&W I would have suggested you let me have a copy of the title and I would try to give you some questions to ask them to answer, sadly your are off my patch by some way.
Thanks for the kind offer and reading my posts. Hopefully the wife and I get to the bottom of this mess no matter how it plays out because we really need to know even if we do walk away.I'm aware the solicitor wouldn't have actually went ahead without instruction, it was more that everything was fine until I raised a concern.
Anyways I've been wrecking my head wondering why this ROW over a lane that won't be our property is mentioned on the title. It mentions land on folios that we don't have and probably won't ever see as it was so long ago.
I've spoken to some length again to the original developer (the guy from whom the bank repossessed the site) and he has walked the site with me pointing out everything he can remember. Super guy and I hope he gets a chance to bid on a build price for me.
He is adamant that Mr Farmer has no ROW and has even given me the details of the legal firm that dealt with his original purchase from the farmer.
desolate said:
Either way - I wouldn't want to be living near an uppity farmer who feels disgruntled, whether he is justified or not.
Any land he owns that borders yours could well become the dump for crap - mechanical and/or animal.
To be fair the farmer is a very nice man and well regarded in the area. There shouldn't be an issue with him and we have spoken on very good terms.Any land he owns that borders yours could well become the dump for crap - mechanical and/or animal.
It's who he sells the land to after he retires is the problem hence the issue getting this nailed.
Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:
Did the farmer object to the planning permission 'your' land benefits from? Doesn't affect anything but might give you an idea as to his true feelings on the matter.
I'd also want to double check there he hasn't got an overage provision (either planning or sales or a claw back) on the land too; even if he isn't the current freeholder of 'your' land.
Just some thoughts.
Farmer gained planning permission himself and sold the sites to a developer who went bust. Farmer has land adjoining our proposed lane hence the domestic ROW that is in place if he ever wishes to develop in the future, however he hasn't a hope of planning as the law here in N.Ireland has changed.I'd also want to double check there he hasn't got an overage provision (either planning or sales or a claw back) on the land too; even if he isn't the current freeholder of 'your' land.
Just some thoughts.
So it's just the unrestricted farming ROW and there has been a development on this.
Firstly thanks to the many that have replied here as some suggestions have proved fruitful and our solicitor seems to have overlooked something that the wife and I discovered ourselves.
Hopefully the experts here will understand the following....
Simply put the farming ROW is totally unclear. It is not marked on any current map apart from an X and a Y with no lines between and a reference to "as shown in" a map "1234", however a typed document from 1947 stating the establishment of a ROW up a lane and through a yard that runs parallel to our proposed lane and states as in map "1234 along lane and through yard between points X and Y". The map"1234" is no longer available.
Solicitor claims we are right in saying that there is enough evidence to prove that this ROW does not go over our land with the present day paper work that is available. He is now asking the other side to clarify and if they can't to insure us against it (still not 100% sure about the implications of this).
Solicitor has assumed X and Y followed our proposed lane but there is now evidence that it may not and Mr Farmers solicitors may have got it wrong when it was sold to the developer.
Yes it's a mess but hopefully it has progressed a little in our favour.
Opinions welcome.
blueg33 said:
Insurance probably won't be offered. You havd already dpoken to the farmer and he has claimed a right. Defective Title Indemnity Insurance usually carries a condition that no contact has been made with potential beneficiaries.
If one is offered, read the small print very carefully twice.
Yes thanks for pointing that out. If one is offered, read the small print very carefully twice.
We only discussed buying out domestic ROW with farmer and he only mentioned farming ROW on one of the sites which to be fair would not be a deal breaker if it was indeed correct.
He also stated it was the only ROW he had if that makes any difference.
However, the solicitor has now also pointed out that with the site the farmer mentioned he had ROW, there is no access for him to actually get to the bit marked on the map.
It's marked by a little strip beside a field but the farmer would have to cross our field to get to it and there is nothing on the map to show this.
This complicates matters even further for the vendors.
It's a total mess
robinessex said:
I've heard of cases in my locality where land sales have been followed by opportunistic approaches by neighbours over the boundaries. Obviously hoping that poor maps offers the chance to make a 'land grab'
Again thanks for this.......I suppose this is something that is a very real possibility in regard to our situation.
I'll keep that thought on board.
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