Bicycle/Taxi interface - Who's at fault?
Discussion
I had a bit of a coming together with a taxi last week; which subsequently resulted in me being catapulted over the bonnet and my head connecting with the windscreen!
Fortunately, there were no serious injuries for either party (the taxi driver was quite shaken). I had a small concussion perhaps (quite dizzy, and didn't quite feel myself for the next few days), quite a lot of cuts and some very heavy bruising, my neck ballooned quite significantly and some joint pain, but luckily no broken bones.
Strangely the taxi driver wanted me to sign a piece of paper declaring it as my fault, which I obviously wasn't prepared to do. The police did attend and have taken statements etc. although I don't know what the taxi driver has said.
But I am curious as to the opinions of who's fault it is.
Here are the pics of where it occurred:
I was travelling along the red route at approximately 16 mph according to Strava. As you can see the road splits to a Y section and I followed the left route.
Just around those trees the taxi was travelling at a guess 10 mph at the point of impact and followed the yellow route.
So the argument is whether I cut across his route or vice versa, as unfortunately the road marking aren't exactly clear!
But I do think I had the right of way there, although regardless of whether I was right or wrong; massive lesson learnt! As it could have been so much worse!
Fortunately, there were no serious injuries for either party (the taxi driver was quite shaken). I had a small concussion perhaps (quite dizzy, and didn't quite feel myself for the next few days), quite a lot of cuts and some very heavy bruising, my neck ballooned quite significantly and some joint pain, but luckily no broken bones.
Strangely the taxi driver wanted me to sign a piece of paper declaring it as my fault, which I obviously wasn't prepared to do. The police did attend and have taken statements etc. although I don't know what the taxi driver has said.
But I am curious as to the opinions of who's fault it is.
Here are the pics of where it occurred:
I was travelling along the red route at approximately 16 mph according to Strava. As you can see the road splits to a Y section and I followed the left route.
Just around those trees the taxi was travelling at a guess 10 mph at the point of impact and followed the yellow route.
So the argument is whether I cut across his route or vice versa, as unfortunately the road marking aren't exactly clear!
But I do think I had the right of way there, although regardless of whether I was right or wrong; massive lesson learnt! As it could have been so much worse!
mouseymousey said:
dacouch said:
By now the taxi driver will have two independent witnesses
And severe whiplash and loss of earnings.Pontoneer said:
No road markings implies no priority .
I'd agree that either party could have avoided the incident by exercising greater caution / anticipation that someone might have been around the corner , therefore each equally at fault .
Oh , and this may be of interest
http://www.hovding.com/how_hovding_works
Not sure I would trust that to be honest, and not entirely practical for the type of cycling that I like to do.I'd agree that either party could have avoided the incident by exercising greater caution / anticipation that someone might have been around the corner , therefore each equally at fault .
Oh , and this may be of interest
http://www.hovding.com/how_hovding_works
flemke said:
The spot where the collision happened - is that considered to be "public" road, or privately-owned with public right-of-way?
The part that I was initially cycling down before the "junction" is a council road, there are however no signs that indicate when/if this transitions to a private road, so I'm unsure with that one.divetheworld said:
16mph can be pretty fast in respect to stopping a push bike, as is now evident.
You both could have avoided the collision. Without clear road markings, you both have responsibilities to looking, and acting with caution.
As others have said, seems like 50/50 unless.....
Were you wearing Lycra?
I agree that it could have been avoided, and no I'm not that type of cyclist (mountain bike).You both could have avoided the collision. Without clear road markings, you both have responsibilities to looking, and acting with caution.
As others have said, seems like 50/50 unless.....
Were you wearing Lycra?
Pete317 said:
From the way you cut around that blind corner, you would have been visible to each other for about half a second before the collision - not enough time for any avoiding action whatsoever.
In fact, it's probable that you would have hit the taxi even had it been parked there.
I didn't cut around a blind corner, the visibility directly in front of me was clear.In fact, it's probable that you would have hit the taxi even had it been parked there.
Edited by Pete317 on Friday 28th August 08:30
I would say that the second picture is more accurate to the line I took (slightly wider line than the first picture indicates).
Had it been parked where the collision occurred, I wouldn't have hit it as I would have seen it. From my view it was more a case of straight lining with clear view directly in front of me.
Just to clear up few things.
He hit me, I did not hit him.
His front bumper hit my front wheel/forks at around where the number plate begins, you can see this from the damage where the handlebars dented the bonnet as it pivoted about that point.
I did apply the brakes but I'm unsure how much speed I scrubbed off exactly, that 16 mph is the speed I was travelling just before the corner.
But yes I do agree it could have been avoidable, and it is a valuable lesson learnt.
Edited by intrepid44 on Friday 28th August 09:43
Pete317 said:
If he hit you side-on then surely your momentum would have carried you over the side of the bonnet and it's unlikely you would have contacted the windscreen?
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
My head impacted about mid-way up on the left hand side of the windscreen, the car was a Ford Galaxy. So a fairly short bonnet.Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
I didn't mention a picture of the damage if you read my post correctly, I unfortunately didn't think to get a photo of the damage at the time.
The police did take a photo however, so if it comes to anything further then it is available, and the damage points are recorded, I'm not lying!
Pete317 said:
intrepid44 said:
Pete317 said:
If he hit you side-on then surely your momentum would have carried you over the side of the bonnet and it's unlikely you would have contacted the windscreen?
Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
My head impacted about mid-way up on the left hand side of the windscreen, the car was a Ford Galaxy. So a fairly short bonnet.Unless of course he was going a good deal faster than you, which, given his proximity to the upcoming junction, seems a bit unlikely.
You mentioned a picture of the damage, but you don't seem to have posted it.
I didn't mention a picture of the damage if you read my post correctly, I unfortunately didn't think to get a photo of the damage at the time.
The police did take a photo however, so if it comes to anything further then it is available, and the damage points are recorded, I'm not lying!
You say that the handlebars damaged the bonnet when they pivoted around, but that implies that the wheel was pointing somewhat towards the car at impact. It's a bit difficult to visualise a scenario other than that without a photo.
I accept that the car has a fairly short bonnet, but then again, assuming you had been hit side-on and your speeds had been the same, you would have gone across the bonnet at a 45 degree angle. If you were going faster than the taxi then the angle would have been shallower still.
TooMany2cvs said:
intrepid44 said:
His front bumper hit my front wheel/forks at around where the number plate begins, you can see this from the damage where the handlebars dented the bonnet as it pivoted about that point.
This baffles me. How come you didn't get pushed sideways, away from the windscreen? If you'd hit the side of his front bumper, the handlebars could easily still have hit that point, as the front wheel would have gone sideways and the bike upwards. Is there any impact mark on his bumper itself?Of course, there will be a small amount of that force which does push away but this is insignificant compared to the rotation.
I would imagine there is an impact mark on the bumper but I don't know for sure, I do remember there being a big dent and scratch where the handlebar impacted the bonnet however, and there was massive bruising to my right shin which impacted the top bar of the frame.
flemke said:
intrepid44 said:
flemke said:
The spot where the collision happened - is that considered to be "public" road, or privately-owned with public right-of-way?
The part that I was initially cycling down before the "junction" is a council road, there are however no signs that indicate when/if this transitions to a private road, so I'm unsure with that one.It appears that the "left fork" that you had just begun to take was onto private property. The road you had just exited was Frankland Lane, a council road.
Just after leaving Frankland Lane and joining the private road, one can go straight on, or one can take a 45° left turning, leading to a large garage or warehouse.
This is in the centre of your image.
If one does not turn 45° left towards the garage, going straight ahead appears eventually to lead one to a breaker's yard. This is not quite visible in your image. Both the turning to the garage and the road straight-ahead to the breaker's yard appear to be dead-ends.
According to your yellow line, the taxi was coming from the warehouse, whereas you were headed straight towards the breaker's yard. Is that correct?
Next question: at every point through that area, the road is wide enough for at least 2 vehicles. At the point where you and the taxi made contact, where was the taxi's lateral position in relation to "his" road: was he all the way over on his left, as he should have been if there had been a centre line?
I was headed straight on, this leads to a turn off and then on towards Hoppers Wood which is a bicycle trail/bridleway.
The yellow line on the second picture is pretty much what would have been the centre of the taxi, so yes he would have been out of position on the road.
Pete317 said:
flemke said:
Of course not but, with respect, if I understand your post correctly, I think you've got this back-to-front.
Based on what has been said and shown in this thread, the cyclist was the one going straight on. To apply your question, "Is it reasonable (for a cyclist) to come to a stop before the entrance to each and every...?"
The taxi driver, on the other hand, was in effect leaving a private driveway and about to join a road where traffic was to be expected.
Not only that, but the garage driveway is a cul-de-sac. The route the taxi driver was exiting was a route he would already have entered, probably only a couple of minutes earlier. The taxi driver cannot possibly say, "How was I to know that there was a road behind those bushes?"
Here's the view from the other side:Based on what has been said and shown in this thread, the cyclist was the one going straight on. To apply your question, "Is it reasonable (for a cyclist) to come to a stop before the entrance to each and every...?"
The taxi driver, on the other hand, was in effect leaving a private driveway and about to join a road where traffic was to be expected.
Not only that, but the garage driveway is a cul-de-sac. The route the taxi driver was exiting was a route he would already have entered, probably only a couple of minutes earlier. The taxi driver cannot possibly say, "How was I to know that there was a road behind those bushes?"
https://goo.gl/maps/f0AH4
As you can see, the RH (from his side) side of the driveway doesn't go all the way down to the junction with the 'main' road, but is offset from it, and this is not apparent at all from the driveway side.
I take your point about the driver having to have entered the driveway in the first place, but we've all seen how some roads can look completely different in one direction than the other, and, if he wasn't familiar with the place it could easily have slipped his mind.
On another, slightly unrelated point, I am finding this all extremely interesting and taking valuable lessons on-board, it's great to have this debate ongoing which I hope others are learning from as well
I'll reply to other points at a later time.
Pete317 said:
intrepid44 said:
The taxi company is based there, just to clarify that situation.
But then the drivers must have driven down that lane hundreds, even thousands of times without incident, until the OP came along.In my own personal opinion it may provide a false sense of security, just as I had taken that route many times before in the exact same fashion without incident occurring.
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