Abandoned car on private property.
Discussion
Hi all,
My mum is a landlord with several properties and a car park in our local town. The car park spaces are rented by tenants of the property and used by the residents.
Recently a car (I am not sure what kind but know it was on a 'p' reg) turned up in a rented space and was complained about by the resident who rented that space. My mum left a note on the car asking that it be moved. Nothing happened.
Two weeks later she called the police. They told her they can't provide ownership details but that she can remove it from her property.
Another note and a warning were written and put on the car saying it would soon be towed if not moved. Two weeks later my mum arranged for a local scrap firm to come and take the car for £40. The car was sitting there for five weeks in total and finally towed with a flat tire.
The day after the car was towed the owner calls my mum ranting and raving about her having towed his 'concourse car'. It was bizarre given he'd five weeks to get in touch that he contacts her the day after its towed.
My mum is feeling guilty (God knows why) and wants to make sure she followed the correct procedure. The police told her to tow it but she is worried that her interpretation of this as 'get rid of it'' by selling it to a scrap firm could be problematic.
Anyone have any idea where we stand? Thanks a lot.
Freddy
My mum is a landlord with several properties and a car park in our local town. The car park spaces are rented by tenants of the property and used by the residents.
Recently a car (I am not sure what kind but know it was on a 'p' reg) turned up in a rented space and was complained about by the resident who rented that space. My mum left a note on the car asking that it be moved. Nothing happened.
Two weeks later she called the police. They told her they can't provide ownership details but that she can remove it from her property.
Another note and a warning were written and put on the car saying it would soon be towed if not moved. Two weeks later my mum arranged for a local scrap firm to come and take the car for £40. The car was sitting there for five weeks in total and finally towed with a flat tire.
The day after the car was towed the owner calls my mum ranting and raving about her having towed his 'concourse car'. It was bizarre given he'd five weeks to get in touch that he contacts her the day after its towed.
My mum is feeling guilty (God knows why) and wants to make sure she followed the correct procedure. The police told her to tow it but she is worried that her interpretation of this as 'get rid of it'' by selling it to a scrap firm could be problematic.
Anyone have any idea where we stand? Thanks a lot.
Freddy
Thanks all for the replies. My mum is almost 70 and interpreted towing as 'getting rid of'. She is not the kind of person to make it someone else's problem on the road. Though I did suggest next time something like this happens she should store it somewhere.
Regarding the suggestion for a gate: the car park also has spaces for business premises customers and is well signposted as such. It was one of these spaces that the guy parked in. There were only then one remaining space for customers of the shop. Which wasn't really very fair.
She's in a bit of a tis. She's softening up in her old age. The guy is particularly abusive and won't give his name or any proof of ownership.
Regarding the suggestion for a gate: the car park also has spaces for business premises customers and is well signposted as such. It was one of these spaces that the guy parked in. There were only then one remaining space for customers of the shop. Which wasn't really very fair.
She's in a bit of a tis. She's softening up in her old age. The guy is particularly abusive and won't give his name or any proof of ownership.
Thanks again all for the above.
It transpires the car has been untaxed since March 15th. So unless he trailered it in to the space then he drove it in illegally.
Additionally the guy claims he couldn't take it away because he had a flat tire. Not sure why he didn't call after multiple notes and 5 weeks to say this. Or change it one afternoon with a spare.
We've called the scrap merchant. They are going to 'hold' the car. But it has been dented in the process of removal. So that's annoying.
Either way. Will keep you all updated.
It transpires the car has been untaxed since March 15th. So unless he trailered it in to the space then he drove it in illegally.
Additionally the guy claims he couldn't take it away because he had a flat tire. Not sure why he didn't call after multiple notes and 5 weeks to say this. Or change it one afternoon with a spare.
We've called the scrap merchant. They are going to 'hold' the car. But it has been dented in the process of removal. So that's annoying.
Either way. Will keep you all updated.
Hi all,
Update as promised. My Mum has been texted constantly over the bank holiday by the guy. Amusingly he told my Mum it was unacceptable for her not to reply since his last message 24 hours earlier. It took him 5 weeks and the disappearance of his car to contact us!
The tenant pays £125 per month for the space. The gentleman with the Golf cost them nearly £250.
Anyway, I'm taking over from here and will speak with the guy today. I don't expect him to be quite so abusive to a male. I spoke with the scrap dealer. They have not stripped the car yet. It's a P reg Golf GTi Mk3 in "dubious condition" with around 150k miles. Autotrader suggests it's worth around £300-400 if it's in decent condition.
I'm going to keep it amicable from my side and ask him to carefully explain his situation. I want to understand why the flat tire stopped him from moving the car or contacting us. The irony is my Mum is overly hospitable and would probably have organised someone to help him get it to Kwik-Fit I expect. I want to understand why he presumably did not have a jack or a spare. Once I'm satisfied here I'd like to understand why the car was untaxed and for a long period before it turned up in the space. When was he planning to tax it? What was his reasoning.
It will be fairly straightforward to ascertain if he is lying. And if so, he will get no help from my side. If he tells the truth, and I will give him ample chance. Then I will help him out.
So we will see.
Update as promised. My Mum has been texted constantly over the bank holiday by the guy. Amusingly he told my Mum it was unacceptable for her not to reply since his last message 24 hours earlier. It took him 5 weeks and the disappearance of his car to contact us!
The tenant pays £125 per month for the space. The gentleman with the Golf cost them nearly £250.
Anyway, I'm taking over from here and will speak with the guy today. I don't expect him to be quite so abusive to a male. I spoke with the scrap dealer. They have not stripped the car yet. It's a P reg Golf GTi Mk3 in "dubious condition" with around 150k miles. Autotrader suggests it's worth around £300-400 if it's in decent condition.
I'm going to keep it amicable from my side and ask him to carefully explain his situation. I want to understand why the flat tire stopped him from moving the car or contacting us. The irony is my Mum is overly hospitable and would probably have organised someone to help him get it to Kwik-Fit I expect. I want to understand why he presumably did not have a jack or a spare. Once I'm satisfied here I'd like to understand why the car was untaxed and for a long period before it turned up in the space. When was he planning to tax it? What was his reasoning.
It will be fairly straightforward to ascertain if he is lying. And if so, he will get no help from my side. If he tells the truth, and I will give him ample chance. Then I will help him out.
So we will see.
TroubledSoul said:
Why couldn't he contact the OP's mum and explain his situation? She might have been sympathetic had she been given the full story.
This is the greatest irony. She has been pretty involved with charity her whole life. Her rents are lower than the market value and she will only rent to the less fortunate. Most of her tenanted shops are charity shops or small independent businesses that are struggling. We all tell her she makes trouble for herself... taking on a guy who runs a cafe who is struggling after Costa came to town and he's going through a divorce. Not an ideal tenant! She really does do all she can for those around her. The fact she stupidly dealt with this car (and mistakenly in an illegal way) when it was contractually the tenant's problem is further illustration of that.She would have certainly helped the guy had he called and said he'd run out of tax and couldn't afford to renew it. Of course the car couldn't have stayed where it was however she'd have asked around for somewhere to keep it.
She's no pushover, don't get me wrong... however in her later years she's become more affected by abusive behaviour which is why I'm taking it on. The way this guy went at her was something else.
He hasn't returned my call yet. The scrap merchant said he appears 'not all there'. I don't exactly know what that means. Drugs perhaps.
EDIT: I am not sure if I mentioned but in addition to the various notices on the car (by my mum and the business owner) each resident and business owner with access to the car park was asked who the owner of the car was. Nobody claimed to know.
Edited by Freddy88FM on Tuesday 1st September 11:58
photosnob said:
I'd lose a couple of hundred quid for an easy life. I'd then help out my family member by sorting some private parking enforcement or bollards.
Last time bollards were put up a guy walked in to one backwards (claimed he was carrying a box with a friend and didn't see the bollard, fell over it and tried to sue my mum via a no win no fee lawyer. The case was taken by the law firm and immediately dismissed by the courts. Fortunately the guy had a history of opportunistic suing. The bollards it turned out complied with all relevant laws. It cost us a chunk in legal fees and ended up with a big insurance premium hike because 'there had been an accident' on the premises regardless of the outcome. We removed the bollards. Several thousand in expenses.We then tried a barrier that would open when you pressed a button and would inform you to get out you needed a token from a the shop you visited. Within a week the barrier was bent off. This was replaced and then broken again in due course. Eventually it was left open because residents were sick of it being bent and jammed. Several thousand in expenses.
So yes, we've tried the usuals.
All this is to stop people like this man parking in the spaces and try to give the residents and businesses what they pay for. There are signs everywhere, each space has "PRIVATE" written in it on the floor and a sign on the wall outlining which shop/flat it belongs to.
My mum is not the kind of person to push a problem on someone else. I personally would have pulled it out on to the road and left it for the council. She didn't think that was fair at all.
Can I ask, what would you do if someone parked on your drive (EDIT: I see you have no drive, but let's assume you do- it has space for two cars) and after five weeks you couldn't get hold of them? They were stopping your wife parking in her space and leaving her to park on the road. I assume you'd do what I would have done... towed them out on to the road. But assuming, like my mum, you refuse to do that on moral grounds... what would you have done?
But yes, I appreciate this isn't something that should be worried about too much. Sadly she is worrying.
Edited by Freddy88FM on Tuesday 1st September 14:29
photosnob said:
OP it's a tough situation you are in. I don't know what I'd do if I were in your mums position. I can only offer real life advice. And right now I'd resolve this situation as painlessly as possible. You can win some form of moral victory and risk a world of grief. I'd take the easy option.
Entirely appreciate what you're saying and definitely wise advice. This particular nuisance sadly transcends the moral side simply due to the costs already incurred (£250 rent). This alone already almost equals the value of his cars upper estimate. Though if it came down to it as we said the tenant should deal with the problem and still pay his rent. Sadly my Mum won't demand this. Plus five weeks of pissing about and the hassle that it's caused. I'm just reluctant to pay the bloke for dumping an untaxed car in a private yard tucked away from the road (which is what it is... there are only 8 spaces .... all private), abusive behaviour and his general disinterest prior to his car disappearing.I agree. another £300 for his car is cheaper than the legal battle. Him suing for the cost of his car and us suing for expenses. Hey ho. Let's see. Once he gets in contact... I'll update.
UPDATE:
So, just got a call from my Mum. She has had a call from the business whose space was taken (a small interior design shop). The owner has learned (somehow) that the guy in question is already in trouble with the Police over the car. It seems he was caught driving without tax or insurance. It seems he subsequently dumped it.
Details are sketchy but as we learn more I will update. This certain does explain why he's beginning to dodge calls!
So, just got a call from my Mum. She has had a call from the business whose space was taken (a small interior design shop). The owner has learned (somehow) that the guy in question is already in trouble with the Police over the car. It seems he was caught driving without tax or insurance. It seems he subsequently dumped it.
Details are sketchy but as we learn more I will update. This certain does explain why he's beginning to dodge calls!
Breadvan72 said:
(1) The car owner was a twunt to dump his car on the property, but...
(2) The landowner was wrong to have the car moved. She (or maybe the tenant, but whatevs) had become what is known as an involuntary bailee of the car, and so had a duty to take reasonable care of it, but could also make a reasonable charge for storing the car, and/or seek damages for trespass to cover any loss caused by the trespass.
(3) Moving the car was not stealing it (Hants Rat is correct about this - the element of dishonesty is lacking).
(4) The landowner could lawfully sell the car under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 after taking some steps set out in the Act.
(5) The police are right - this really is a matter in which the landowner and the car owner could battle it out with competing civil claims. It's not a criminal matter. If the car owner has committed motoring-related offences, that doesn't alter the position between him and the landowner.
Highly appreciated. Thank you.(2) The landowner was wrong to have the car moved. She (or maybe the tenant, but whatevs) had become what is known as an involuntary bailee of the car, and so had a duty to take reasonable care of it, but could also make a reasonable charge for storing the car, and/or seek damages for trespass to cover any loss caused by the trespass.
(3) Moving the car was not stealing it (Hants Rat is correct about this - the element of dishonesty is lacking).
(4) The landowner could lawfully sell the car under the Torts (Interference with Goods Act) 1977 after taking some steps set out in the Act.
(5) The police are right - this really is a matter in which the landowner and the car owner could battle it out with competing civil claims. It's not a criminal matter. If the car owner has committed motoring-related offences, that doesn't alter the position between him and the landowner.
Hello all,
Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Sorry to leave you in the dark. Here the update thus far:
The guy went to the scrap dealer again recently and refused to take the car. He told them to scrap it and he'd come after us for compensation. They asked if he would like the possessions from inside the car. He said no.
Posessions included two previous recovery notices for illegal parking. One with a ticket value of £500!!! So this isn’t the first (or the second) time he’s dumped the car and had it towed.
It also transpires that not only was the car not taxed, it was not insured. It was driven in illegally and then dumped.
I spoke to the guy and gave him every chance to explain what had happened. He kept blaming us over and over. I asked him to explain what had happened (as an ‘agent’ for the car park acting for my mum). I said I didn’t know the story.
He told me he parked, went to the shop and then had a flat tire. While he was sorting out the tire the car was towed and scrapped. He said it happened over a ‘week or two’. I asked if he’d spoken to anyone to let them know his scenario. He said yes, but refused to say who gave him persmission to stay.
I spoke to the shop owner again, he didn’t use their shop nor did she give him permission to stay in her space. She never met him. We checked dates with residents and the car had been there at least five weeks. Perhaps longer. Not only that but not a single resident, business owner or any other person with access to the car park knows who this guy is or was asked if he could store his car there.
I asked if the car was roadworthy, he said yes, with the exception of the tire. I asked if he knew it was untaxed. He denied it. I told him of the DVLA system online to check and that I’d done so and it was not taxed. I asked him if it was insured. He said yes. I told him it wasn’t (scrap firm informed me of this).
I called the police to inform them of his threatening behaviour to my mum. They sent a community support officer to see him.
Obviously the fact still stands that my Mum scrapped his car… which she should not have done before sending a letter to his home address through the DVLA it seems.
I offered him compensaiton for his loss. But it will be less our costs. I said if he is interested to contact me within five days and we can talk figures. He didn’t make contact.
He texted me on Monday to say that he is beginning legal action. I personally don’t believe him and so won’t tell my Mum until I’m more sure. So it’s not over just yet.
As a final note: Breadvan has been very helpful to us in this whole experience. I really appreciate his help and kind pointers. He’s a top guy and a credit to the PH community.
Finally: no money was exchanged between the scrap merchant and my mum in the end. We felt it best to avoid a payment obviously!
Edited by Freddy88FM on Friday 11th September 11:29
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