Can insurers make you let them see your e-license?
Discussion
Simple question really - can insurers force you to allow them access to the unique code for your online e-license?
I'm slightly miffed off. When I took out the policy I had to send them a copy of both sides of my card, and also both sides of my counterpart. However now they are saying they will not discuss it until I give them access. It seems like they are just trying to mess me around.
What is more - when I filled in the comparison site it asked when I had FIRST passed my test. However I was banned and had to redo my test. Meaning that my license details online are different to those on my card and what I told them. Which could be just another cause of hassle.
For Loon - as you are a suspicious type. The back of my card says the date I passed my first test. My paper part says the time I passed my first test. The online one says the date I passed my second test. If you don't believe me and think I'm conning the insurers I'll happily send you copies of this stuff.
So can I just tell them no? I'm looking for an easy life here with no hassle. I'm not trying to pull a fast one.
I'm slightly miffed off. When I took out the policy I had to send them a copy of both sides of my card, and also both sides of my counterpart. However now they are saying they will not discuss it until I give them access. It seems like they are just trying to mess me around.
What is more - when I filled in the comparison site it asked when I had FIRST passed my test. However I was banned and had to redo my test. Meaning that my license details online are different to those on my card and what I told them. Which could be just another cause of hassle.
For Loon - as you are a suspicious type. The back of my card says the date I passed my first test. My paper part says the time I passed my first test. The online one says the date I passed my second test. If you don't believe me and think I'm conning the insurers I'll happily send you copies of this stuff.
So can I just tell them no? I'm looking for an easy life here with no hassle. I'm not trying to pull a fast one.
killerferret666 said:
Its a good question, I don't have your answer though. But I wonder does your first test actually even count now as you had to retake it so it is superceeded by the more recent date?
I know the paper license counterparts no longer hold any legal status according to the gov website.
I don't know. I'm happy to take it on the chin if it doesn't. However the question was: "when did you first pass your driving test" or something like that. I don't know how more clear it could be. I know the paper license counterparts no longer hold any legal status according to the gov website.
northwest monkey said:
So why not just let them see what they want then?
It's not like they can do anything with the information, so surely an easy life would be just to give it them and you and they can carry on with whatever else it is you have to do.
I probably will. It's not like they can do anything with the information, so surely an easy life would be just to give it them and you and they can carry on with whatever else it is you have to do.
But - as I've said. They already have the info. And there is some info online which could potentially cause me aggro.
I'm asking a question. Where I work we cannot demand to see customers documents if they have personal information on (apparently due to data protection, although I don't believe this). I'm wondering is insurers have some exemption.
Purple - apologies that I'm not very literate.
Anyway here is a quote from the comparison site:
"Years Licence held:
Tell us how long you've held your current driving licence. Check on the back of the licence for the 'from' date"
I gave them that date, got my card in front of me. If I'm in the wrong I'm in the wrong. I'll just give them the code. However I'm still not happy about having to supply this information repeatedly. I want them explaining what I'm meant to give them if that is wrong.
Still wonder if there is a legal obligation to give this info. I'll be giving it. But might help someone else.
Anyway here is a quote from the comparison site:
"Years Licence held:
Tell us how long you've held your current driving licence. Check on the back of the licence for the 'from' date"
I gave them that date, got my card in front of me. If I'm in the wrong I'm in the wrong. I'll just give them the code. However I'm still not happy about having to supply this information repeatedly. I want them explaining what I'm meant to give them if that is wrong.
Still wonder if there is a legal obligation to give this info. I'll be giving it. But might help someone else.
LoonR1 said:
Of course they can ask to see personal information, how else do you think insurers can decide whether to offer you cover or not?
They can ask to see the licence and you should show them as well. I told you that this claim was ticking a load of fraud triggers and this is just another of those triggers. I'd like to see the exact wording of their questions, as I very much doubt it says "when did you first pass your test?" If you're going to hide behind this then you could be on a sticky wicket.
How long ago were the two tests passed? It's unlikely that an insurer would decline a claim for this if the second test was over 10 years ago, anything less though could be tricky as they may well say that they wouldn't have taken on the risk had you answered the question correctly.
The fact that you're even asking this question does speak volumes though.
Loon I got my insurance from moneysupermarket. The question is: "How long have you held this license?", when you click the little question mark next to this you get: Years Licence held -Tell us how long you've held your current driving licence. Check on the back of the licence for the 'from' date". How else are you meant to read that? On the back of my license it says a date earlier from when I re-passed my test. What would you have written considering that? They can ask to see the licence and you should show them as well. I told you that this claim was ticking a load of fraud triggers and this is just another of those triggers. I'd like to see the exact wording of their questions, as I very much doubt it says "when did you first pass your test?" If you're going to hide behind this then you could be on a sticky wicket.
How long ago were the two tests passed? It's unlikely that an insurer would decline a claim for this if the second test was over 10 years ago, anything less though could be tricky as they may well say that they wouldn't have taken on the risk had you answered the question correctly.
The fact that you're even asking this question does speak volumes though.
What's more - as I already have cover, we are not talking about an insurers choice to offer cover. We are talking about if they have a right to demand access. I am no expert (you are) - however I don't see what they can do if I refuse. Refuse the claim maybe. I don't know.
First test was passed in 2007. Second test was passed in 2012. I'll see what happens. As before I accept what you are saying about triggers etc. I can't help that. I know I'm being honest. I can't change that I'm going travelling in a few months. However I would say - if I was trying to scam insurers I would not be putting so much info on the internet, and even offering to send you the information given I know that you work in this industry.
I can send/post a screen shot of those questions if you think I'm trying it on. I do appreciate your advice and help, but it would be nice to get the benefit of doubt once.
LoonR1 said:
You're not going to,like what I'm going to say, but you're taking the piss amd you pretty well know it. They asked a pretty simple question "How long have you held your current licence?" and you chose to tell them how long it's been since you passed your test the first time and ignore that your current licence is the one you've held since you passed your second test.
The dates you've given tell me exactly why you've done it too, the earlier date will produce a far more financially favourable quote than the latter. Did you also tell them about the reason that you had to retake to your test, as I'm sure that would have still been asked about when you took out this policy?
There is plenty of benefit of the doubt given in a lot of insurance stuff No matter what the outcome on this, you won't be referred for prosecution for insurance fraud for a start on the benefit of the doubt / discretion side of things.
Putting info on the Internet under an anonymous username is irrelevant. Sticking this on your Facebook page would be just as irrelevant, as a double bluff is pretty simple to do. Insurers don't trawl fora looking for stuff like this, despite the wibblists views.
Loon read the wording. I looked at the back of my card. Whether I thought it would give me cheaper quote is irrelevant to me. I did what was asked. For the avoidance of doubt. I did what was asked - yes I thought it would give me a cheaper quote. I didn't do anything other than provide the information they asked for. Again - what would you have done in my position? The dates you've given tell me exactly why you've done it too, the earlier date will produce a far more financially favourable quote than the latter. Did you also tell them about the reason that you had to retake to your test, as I'm sure that would have still been asked about when you took out this policy?
There is plenty of benefit of the doubt given in a lot of insurance stuff No matter what the outcome on this, you won't be referred for prosecution for insurance fraud for a start on the benefit of the doubt / discretion side of things.
Putting info on the Internet under an anonymous username is irrelevant. Sticking this on your Facebook page would be just as irrelevant, as a double bluff is pretty simple to do. Insurers don't trawl fora looking for stuff like this, despite the wibblists views.
I don't think insurers trawl the internet. However I don't think it would be best practise to post all the details if you are trying it on.
In answer to your question. Yes I did quote the points/ban - in the last 5 years. Using the same logic as your post (I'm not trying to be rude - but this is how I see it). I should give them points which I don't have to declare as to not do so is taking the piss?
My point is that they asked for the date on the back of my card. I actually think you are alright. But I don't see how I've done anything wrong by answering the questions using the guidance given.
LoonR1 said:
They asked when you got your current licence. That's pretty obvious which date you should be giving. Declaring the ban may help you as that at least shows you've not forgotten everything. At no point have I suggested declaring points behind the dates they ask.
Are we getting into drink driving and Rehabilitation of Offenders territory? IIRC you have a criminal past too. If so was this declared?
I'm not having a pop at you, but this hole you've dug could be too deep to get out of. Whether I'm OK or not is moot btw.
No not drink driving. Driving fast enough to be made to redo my test and a ban. They made me do a longer more expensive test actually. Are we getting into drink driving and Rehabilitation of Offenders territory? IIRC you have a criminal past too. If so was this declared?
I'm not having a pop at you, but this hole you've dug could be too deep to get out of. Whether I'm OK or not is moot btw.
And Loon - you are correct I have got a now spent criminal record. Fortunately for me the offences I've been convicted off are/were spent at the time this policy was taken out. The government changed the laws which helped me out.
I have to say Loon - I know only enough to be nothing but dangerous. But I'm reading the FOS website and notes. And I don't think I have done a thing wrong. They asked a question and I answered it as asked. How they could blame me for asking the wrong questions is beyond me.
My only bit of confusion is that I answered the questions on a comparison site. I then just click click clicked and put my debit card details in. There may have been some small print on my insurers side. I'll find out in the next couple of days if it will be a drama or not. If it is it's my own fault.
TooMany2cvs said:
photosnob said:
No not drink driving. Driving fast enough to be made to redo my test and a ban. They made me do a longer more expensive test actually.
Was the conviction for speeding, or for careless (or dangerous?) driving?photosnob said:
And Loon - you are correct I have got a now spent criminal record. Fortunately for me the offences I've been convicted off are/were spent at the time this policy was taken out. The government changed the laws which helped me out.
So you've not told them about the conviction and ban, despite them asking about all convictions within the last five years?I did tell them about the ban and conviction actually. What I didn't tell them about was points which were not required or other things I was not required to tell them about.
LoonR1 said:
You don't declare spent convictions, that's fine and accepted practice.
I don't know whether you've done anything wrong, only you know that. However, if you don't think you have then why the nervousness around this? Just let them see your licence.
Your argument around questions and process is poor. Firstly the questions on a comparison website are often even more precise than the insurers, as they have to ask it in such a way to satisfy the strictest insurer. Secondly, you don't buy directly after selecting a quote, you go through several more levels including T&Cs.
You are choosing to read the FOS website how you want to. I could argue deliberate or reckless with ease based on your comments on this thread alone if I wanted to.
I wouldn't call it nervousness. I asked if I had to give information. I explained honestly why I might not want to give that information, rather than hiding behind 'friends' or anything else. I then decided it was silly and sent them the code before this got to post 4. I then just answered questions asked. I am somewhat nervous after reading what you have said. But I can't change that so won't worry about it too much. I don't know whether you've done anything wrong, only you know that. However, if you don't think you have then why the nervousness around this? Just let them see your licence.
Your argument around questions and process is poor. Firstly the questions on a comparison website are often even more precise than the insurers, as they have to ask it in such a way to satisfy the strictest insurer. Secondly, you don't buy directly after selecting a quote, you go through several more levels including T&Cs.
You are choosing to read the FOS website how you want to. I could argue deliberate or reckless with ease based on your comments on this thread alone if I wanted to.
With regards to the process - I've posted the questions Loon. The exact wording. I've even offered to provide a screenshot. I was merely saying that I can only see it being an issue if I missed something directly with the insurers. You are probably correct about T&C etc... I don't know. I've never read them. I find the box saying I accept and click next. You probably are different but I'm more lazy than most. Respectfully loon I don't see what you are fighting with me about - I've quoted the exact wording. So again I'll ask - what would you answer given this? Would you expect members of the public to ignore this and put something else?
If you have time and can be bothered then please do tell me how you would argue that. I'd provide screenshots showing the questions asked. And explain how I'd answered it as asked. I would admit freely that I expected that my premium would be cheaper. But I thought that was because I had more driving experience than someone who passed for the first time at that date. How answering the questions as asked is fraudulent or reckless is not something I can comprehend. However as I've said we shall see. You may be correct. I'll know in a couple of days.
LoonR1 said:
This is getting murkier. You can not be banned for speeding, it's a 3-6 point penalty range as I understand it (could be wrong). What were you found guilty of?
You don't get points and a ban either.
You can. I was found guilty of speeding. It was SP30 and a ban. I didn't get points as well. You don't get points and a ban either.
Rtype said:
The question clearly states what date you obtained your current licence. You gave them the date you passed your test. It's not the same.
Reason why they are probably asking for your licence is because they have identified your Ban was after you obtained your licence, which doesn't match up.
Long & short of it is, they don't HAVE to insure you & you can dodge around as much as you like - but you should just tell them the truth.
As I've asked Loon. If you are asked for the date on the back of your licence - what date do you give? This isn't me being pedantic. I answered the question as asked. I always assumed telling the truth meant you answered the question which is asked. Not deciding what question they really want answering... Reason why they are probably asking for your licence is because they have identified your Ban was after you obtained your licence, which doesn't match up.
Long & short of it is, they don't HAVE to insure you & you can dodge around as much as you like - but you should just tell them the truth.
Remember - they specifically asked for the date on the back of card. I've quoted the wording twice. I've even offered to screen shot it. Have a look on money supermarket yourself if you want. I'm not looking for obscure small print. It's the highlighted question mark next to the question.
So again - would you answer the question as asked? Or would you determine they were asking the wrong question and give them the answer to the question you think they should ask?
LoonR1 said:
I'm not "fighting with you", I said right at the start that you won't like what I'm going to post. I flagged fraud issues on this back on your other thread and that prediction is coming true. I'm not saying you're committing fraud, I'm saying that an insurer will want to know more. However, the more you tell me, the more it warrants further investigation.
I've already answered the point around the licence question. You have selected a date that best suits your situation, you haven't the answered the question that was asked. Not reading the T&Cs is nobody's problem, but yours. There are way too many threads in SP&L on all sorts of topics by people who haven't read the contract that they entered into, but have confirmed that they have.
Deliberate: you chose to put the date that you passed your test, not the date you got your current licence, which was the date that you passed your retest. That was a deliberate choice.
Reckless: you admit to not reading the T&Cs and just clicking the button. That is effectively the same as signing a blank form.
I have answered the question which was asked though havn't I loon. I've already answered the point around the licence question. You have selected a date that best suits your situation, you haven't the answered the question that was asked. Not reading the T&Cs is nobody's problem, but yours. There are way too many threads in SP&L on all sorts of topics by people who haven't read the contract that they entered into, but have confirmed that they have.
Deliberate: you chose to put the date that you passed your test, not the date you got your current licence, which was the date that you passed your retest. That was a deliberate choice.
Reckless: you admit to not reading the T&Cs and just clicking the button. That is effectively the same as signing a blank form.
Again. How would you answer: "Tell us how long you've held your current driving licence. Check on the back of the licence for the 'from' date"? No bs. I don't take objection to anything you have said apart from this. How would you answer that?
You are correct that I did answer the question as asked deliberately. If I had answered in any other way would I be being honest? I don't think so.
I've accepted that if there is something in the T&C, I'm wrong. I will actually go through and check. However even if there was nothing in the T&C if there is I'm wrong and it's my own fault. The FOS actually has a section covering this very wrong. They say percentage payout and claiming the rest from the comparison site. Are the wrong too?
LoonR1 said:
I'm starting to get confused now. What does your plastic card say? That's your licence.
Show me the FOS link to the section you reference. I'm really interested in the comment about claiming the rest from the price comparison website.
Card has the date of first test. This is the current one. Same issue number as the online thing. The back of the card gives the date I gave. Show me the FOS link to the section you reference. I'm really interested in the comment about claiming the rest from the price comparison website.
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
Durzel said:
Does your relationship with your insurer sound like something borne out of utmost good faith?
No offence intended but it seems clear that you're going to decide what version of the truth suits your agenda. I'd venture that if there is doubt over semantics then it's something that should be divulged, or at least clarified. There's no loss in any event, only the potential for reassurance.
Whether or not you actually care if you're insured or not, or whether you just appear to be insured on MID, is a matter for your own conscience really, but in the very best case it sounds like there would be questions asked of you if you came to claim, worst case the policy could be void from inception.
It seems strange to me that people would pay what are often not trivial sums of money for what ultimately will turn out to be worthless pieces of paper, but maybe I'm a bit weird. I want insurance to give me peace of mind, not tick a box on ANPR.
For the sake of pedantic. Utmost good faith is no longer relevant. No offence intended but it seems clear that you're going to decide what version of the truth suits your agenda. I'd venture that if there is doubt over semantics then it's something that should be divulged, or at least clarified. There's no loss in any event, only the potential for reassurance.
Whether or not you actually care if you're insured or not, or whether you just appear to be insured on MID, is a matter for your own conscience really, but in the very best case it sounds like there would be questions asked of you if you came to claim, worst case the policy could be void from inception.
It seems strange to me that people would pay what are often not trivial sums of money for what ultimately will turn out to be worthless pieces of paper, but maybe I'm a bit weird. I want insurance to give me peace of mind, not tick a box on ANPR.
Edited by Durzel on Wednesday 23 September 12:21
"On 6 April 2013, the Consumer Insurance (Disclosure and Representations) Act 2012 (referred to as "the Act" in this note) came into force. The Act says that the consumer's duty is to "take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation" - replacing the previous duty to disclose all necessary information."
http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications...
Either way I feel I was acting in utmost good faith. I answered the questions asked. I didn't read any small print. Which was my fault. That could maybe come back to haunt me. I'll see.
LoonR1 said:
You mentioned "points that you don't have to declare".
How did you get banned for an SP30? It's not possible, other than it being a totting up ban, but they couldn't order a retest for that. You couldn't be in the first two years of your licence (even if you were a kid) either, as you say that you passed your first test in 2007 and this happened in 2012.
You're not telling the truth here. Why should we believe the rest of your story?
Yes loon - because between my passing my test and getting banned I got some points. I can assure you that you can be banned for SP30. If you can't please send me the evidence as the magistrates made a mistake. How did you get banned for an SP30? It's not possible, other than it being a totting up ban, but they couldn't order a retest for that. You couldn't be in the first two years of your licence (even if you were a kid) either, as you say that you passed your first test in 2007 and this happened in 2012.
You're not telling the truth here. Why should we believe the rest of your story?
agtlaw said:
OP said he did a longer (extended?) retest. I've now refreshed my memory - an extended retest can only be ordered where there is a mandatory disqualification for manslaughter, death by dangerous, death by careless whilst under the influence, or dangerous driving; see s.36 RTOA 1988.
Gonna look up my docs and see what it was then. I'll come back with anything I have. I'm pretty sure I was not wrong. But if I was I'll admit as much. I've got some serious back peddling to do... Firstly I am not going to ignore AGT. When I get home I'll go into the loft and try and pull out any documents I have from the time.
But - err my reading skills are about as good as my spelling in the title. The license did not start on the day I passed my test again. It started from when I applied for a provisional LGV... But even the online form shows I've had a driving license since 2007. In short I've read the License Valid From date - and worked out something very wrong... So the online form shows I've had a driving license since January 2007.
I've checked my online forms with my insurer. And it only says three years plus under license held for. So I don't think this will be a problem.
I still have to show how I achieved the impossible and got banned for an SP30 - all I know is that I was banned. I had to redo both the theory and the driving part. If that is incorrect then I was a fool at the time for not challenging it.
Loon - I'm only going to say this again as you didn't like it. But your not a bad bloke. I'm sure in person we'd be able to have 241 cocktails at the slug and lettuce and be the very best of friends. We could vape our ecigs and have a ball. Then you could take me out on your motorbike and show me a good time
.
But - err my reading skills are about as good as my spelling in the title. The license did not start on the day I passed my test again. It started from when I applied for a provisional LGV... But even the online form shows I've had a driving license since 2007. In short I've read the License Valid From date - and worked out something very wrong... So the online form shows I've had a driving license since January 2007.
I've checked my online forms with my insurer. And it only says three years plus under license held for. So I don't think this will be a problem.
I still have to show how I achieved the impossible and got banned for an SP30 - all I know is that I was banned. I had to redo both the theory and the driving part. If that is incorrect then I was a fool at the time for not challenging it.
Loon - I'm only going to say this again as you didn't like it. But your not a bad bloke. I'm sure in person we'd be able to have 241 cocktails at the slug and lettuce and be the very best of friends. We could vape our ecigs and have a ball. Then you could take me out on your motorbike and show me a good time
. LoonR1 said:
So all this is moot anyway as your test pass in 2012 covers the 3+ years criteria of your current insurers? If so happy days.
I don't drink cocktails, wouldn't be seen dead in a Slug & Lettuce, don't vape or smoke anymore and my bike has no pillion seat and isn't insured for pillions. Other than that we're all good
Not sure. I'd have to look at what month in 2012 and what month I took it out. Don't know how picky they would be. But my documents all say 2007. So unless the insurer is going to say both me and DVLA are wrong. I can't see it being a drama. I don't drink cocktails, wouldn't be seen dead in a Slug & Lettuce, don't vape or smoke anymore and my bike has no pillion seat and isn't insured for pillions. Other than that we're all good
But - it goes to show. Read your policy documents clearly. And then read the online forms carefully. Bet this becomes common though. The old paper documents were easy. The new online system had size 18 font saying licence valid from... And then only in the small print on a tab does it say when each part is valid from.
Tell you what - lets have a healthy salad at weatherspoons. We can then head to a track day and you can give me a tutorial on gears, and then let me lose on it. Don't worry I've got experience - I did nearly 4 weeks on southern thailand on a 125cc automatic. None of this insurance or licence nonsense over there.
GC8 said:
If I was asked about my current licence then Id look at its inception and not the issue date of 'Issue 10'. My 'current' licence was issued on the 11th of this month, but that cannot be the information that they're looking for, surely?
That's where I got confused. They are after the date you passed the test. For some reason subsequent tests do not overwrite the old one on your license. I've looked for any documents. And I can't find anything. However I do know that I had to redo both the theory and the driving test. It's not showing on the online website - so I can only presume that it doesn't stay on for more than 3/4/5 years. I'm not sure why I'd lie about being banned - if I was banned for something more serious like drink driving, or dangerous driving I'd assume it stays on for longer. Anyway - this whole thread and topic was caused by me not being able to read properly.
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