Reasonable force?
Discussion
In view of the 5,000 rounds fired during the siege at St.Dennis in Paris, I wonder if there is any legislation or policy in force that pre-determines what is reasonable force here in the UK?
In Cumbria when Derek Bird went on the rampage, and Raoul Moat went on the run, there was a different scenario, as both ended up in rural locations, but this French action was in a built up area, and 5,000 rounds seems an awful lot of wasted shots?
Was this just "getting the job done" or a reasonable tactic, and could it happen here without legal censure?
In Cumbria when Derek Bird went on the rampage, and Raoul Moat went on the run, there was a different scenario, as both ended up in rural locations, but this French action was in a built up area, and 5,000 rounds seems an awful lot of wasted shots?
Was this just "getting the job done" or a reasonable tactic, and could it happen here without legal censure?
Purity14 said:
Sometimes you could be in a position where you need to give covering fire for someone else to gain a better position.
Are those shots wasted, despite them never actually intending to hit the target? I would argue no.
Why do you want to limit them to so many rounds?
I don't want to limit them, I wondered if they WERE limited.Are those shots wasted, despite them never actually intending to hit the target? I would argue no.
Why do you want to limit them to so many rounds?
The covering fire would need to be accurate in an urban situation, otherwise who knows where they might end up!
TurboHatchback said:
How does the number of rounds fired have any relevance whatsoever? Surely you analyse the threat and decide the level of force required to deal with it (be that stern words or one in the head and two in the chest). If it is determined that lethal force is the only safe option then you fire as many rounds as required to get the job done, be that one or a truckload.
When the suspects have assault rifles, high explosives and a deathwish then quite clearly lethal force is the only option and frankly I wouldn't see the problem with them bringing in tanks and helicopter gunships if it resolved the situation with the least danger to Police and members of the public.
I fully agree, I just wondered if there were laws or policies in place that might restrict the use of what ever became necessary.When the suspects have assault rifles, high explosives and a deathwish then quite clearly lethal force is the only option and frankly I wouldn't see the problem with them bringing in tanks and helicopter gunships if it resolved the situation with the least danger to Police and members of the public.
eldar said:
When Derek Bird when on the rampage, the nearest armed police (except Sellafield CNC, who were locked in) were 30 and 35 miles away.
..and with topographical barriers leading to very poor road connections. The A595 in places is not much more than a country lane!We recently had a seizure of a large amount of ammunition and weapons just a few miles from me, and the July 7th bombers trained in Cumbria! I wouldn't like to think the police were further hampered in providing an appropriate response by red tape regarding what weapons and ammunition they could deploy, after all the perpetrators have no such boundaries.
http://www.itv.com/news/border/2015-11-04/man-arre...
Perhaps we should just follow the French model - Commune police for local issues, and Gendarmes for rural and national issues or those requiring better fire power and more ammunition.
Of course what we would still lack is the respect and understanding attitude of a good majority the French people towards their police forces.
Of course what we would still lack is the respect and understanding attitude of a good majority the French people towards their police forces.
Devil2575 said:
Which was my point in the first place.
We're less likely to see a Paris style attack in the UK because such weapons are not so easy to get hold of.
You should not write off a Paris scale attack in the UK, simply because you don't know how many guns are in circulation.We're less likely to see a Paris style attack in the UK because such weapons are not so easy to get hold of.
To recreate a Paris style attack you only need half a dozen. There have been more than that seized in Cumbria since 2011, as well as an Uzi with silencer, a hand gun and two shotguns at Carlisle Railway station in 2012.
A number of weapons etc. are smuggled in by boats into small harbours between Liverpool and the Scottish Highlands, and 285 illegal guns were seized in Cumbria between 2011 and 2013 including 31 rifles.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-26...
focusxr5 said:
I'm fully trained in weapon retention but I would say that I need to consider it maybe once in 100 interactions. Mrs Miggins out with her grandchildren asking me for the time, I'm hardly going to shield my weapon and shout 'GET BACK'.
If you were in the States, they'd let you carry a lot more ammunition to deal with all these little interactions with Mrs Miggins and her ilk..! 
Even I think 16 rounds into a youth walking up the middle of the street with a knife is a bit excessive!
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