Another boundary dispute
Discussion
Hi All
My father owns a commercial property which he has rented out to the same tenants for a long time, and they're very good tenants all fine there. So he hasn't visited the property too much in the last few years. He has recently been made aware that around 5 years ago the owner of an adjacent property has rebuilt the boundary fence to encroach upon his land, and has built a lean-to shed on the same.
My father has engaged a boundary surveyor who has established that the boundary should absolutely be a straight line but now has an obvious kink. My father has tried to engage with the neighbour, who seems to accept what he has done but he is muttering things to the effect that there are septic tanks, drains etc which would all be affected by any attempt to reinstate the boundary to its correct location. All recent attempts to communicate with the neighbour seem to be rebuffed.
My father has been advised that it will cost around £20,000 to bring an action against the neighbour. Of course his chances of recovering all his costs is pretty low even if he wins his action, especially if the neighbour approaches his debts the same way he does his land rights. My view is that my father now has a recorded boundary dispute with the neighbour and this will directly affect the value of his property, so he needs to take action. However, I would like to help him get the desired outcome (dismantling of the lean-to and reinstatement of the boundary) at minimum cost.
Can anyone let me know what specific areas of law are involved here? I'd like to get myself appraised of the landscape before we start racking up costs. Also, I'm assuming it would be inadvisable to remove the neighbours stuff from my father's property? At what point (if ever) would we be entitled to do so?
Land Registry document (my father's property outlined, neighbour's property above it - this document predates the development of the neighbour's land into a couple of new homes around 2008).
Picture during original development in 2008 - the boundary runs through the furthest telegraph pole, basically in line with the paving slabs next to the house:
As it looked shortly after development around mid 2011:
Another view as it is today, showing the obvious kink where he has infringed (the boundary should continue in a straight line from the rear fences, through the telegraph pole):
Finally a view front on; where the original brick wall at the front finishes is pretty much where the boundary should be; that's where the house developer placed it. You can see how much he has stolen at the front:
Sensible advice on next steps and actual points of law welcomed. Sausages have already been hammered and cans of Red Bull thrown.
My father owns a commercial property which he has rented out to the same tenants for a long time, and they're very good tenants all fine there. So he hasn't visited the property too much in the last few years. He has recently been made aware that around 5 years ago the owner of an adjacent property has rebuilt the boundary fence to encroach upon his land, and has built a lean-to shed on the same.
My father has engaged a boundary surveyor who has established that the boundary should absolutely be a straight line but now has an obvious kink. My father has tried to engage with the neighbour, who seems to accept what he has done but he is muttering things to the effect that there are septic tanks, drains etc which would all be affected by any attempt to reinstate the boundary to its correct location. All recent attempts to communicate with the neighbour seem to be rebuffed.
My father has been advised that it will cost around £20,000 to bring an action against the neighbour. Of course his chances of recovering all his costs is pretty low even if he wins his action, especially if the neighbour approaches his debts the same way he does his land rights. My view is that my father now has a recorded boundary dispute with the neighbour and this will directly affect the value of his property, so he needs to take action. However, I would like to help him get the desired outcome (dismantling of the lean-to and reinstatement of the boundary) at minimum cost.
Can anyone let me know what specific areas of law are involved here? I'd like to get myself appraised of the landscape before we start racking up costs. Also, I'm assuming it would be inadvisable to remove the neighbours stuff from my father's property? At what point (if ever) would we be entitled to do so?
Land Registry document (my father's property outlined, neighbour's property above it - this document predates the development of the neighbour's land into a couple of new homes around 2008).
Picture during original development in 2008 - the boundary runs through the furthest telegraph pole, basically in line with the paving slabs next to the house:
As it looked shortly after development around mid 2011:
Another view as it is today, showing the obvious kink where he has infringed (the boundary should continue in a straight line from the rear fences, through the telegraph pole):
Finally a view front on; where the original brick wall at the front finishes is pretty much where the boundary should be; that's where the house developer placed it. You can see how much he has stolen at the front:
Sensible advice on next steps and actual points of law welcomed. Sausages have already been hammered and cans of Red Bull thrown.
Cheers all. The telegraph pole is something I cottoned on to straight away (my dad only just made me aware of all this) so he's off looking into the wayleaves now. If they're both on his land then it supports the boundary position argument but doesn't resolve the issue of itself. Of course this piece of land is not worth £20,000 but with a boundary dispute with the neighbour now needing to be declared the value of the commercial property might be reduced by this amount or more. The current tenants (of the commercial property) have been pretty OK about it, but they've had to take some measures against excess rainwater pooling on the commercial property as the guttering from the lean-to drains simply drains directly onto the areas where the cars are parked. I'd imagine that they would prefer the thing to go.
AyBee said:
Agree that the best way forward is probably to get the bloke to pay for the land unless your dad desperately wants it back. I suspect you'll need to go legal before he entertains paying anything though unfortunately.
Apparently when my dad first raised it with the neighbour, he fessed up and asked my dad what he wanted to "compensate". My dad said he'd have a think and get back to him - since then all attempts to communicate have been stonewalled. Unfortunately "going legal" does usually involve both sides incurring significant costs; there's some good advice on http://www.boundary-problems.co.uk/boundary-proble...:"In the stereotypical boundary dispute between residential properties both parties stand on their principles, engage solicitors, obtain surveyors' reports, instruct barristers and go to court. The process can take three of four agonising years in which the anxiety may well make at least one of the protagonists very ill. The whole process will cost as much as the protagonists feel compelled to spend, typically between £25,000 and £50,000 each side. At the end of the day, one of the parties is going to lose the case and is likely to be ordered to pay a substantial proportion of the other party's costs. And all for a narrow strip of land to which a chartered valuation surveyor would ascribe no marketable value."
Without just giving in and letting this chancer win the day, and conscious of not getting involved in a financially futile legal exercise, are there any alternatives?
spikeyhead said:
What would happen if your JCB accidentally bumped into their structure a few times?
WinstonWolf said:
Know anyone with an old car who could 'accidentally' knock it down?
I don't know, I'm interested in (qualified) opinions. But I'd suspect it would escalate things quite dramatically. It would obviously be highly counterproductive to induce the neighbour to start causing criminal damage to the tenant's property (e.g. vehicles) as a result.Reading up about such disputes, one of the main issues is that it's very hard to prove where the boundary is. The Land Registry documents are not accurate enough. My dad has already retained a boundary dispute surveyor who states that his assertion about where the boundary lies is highly evidenced, but these things are rarely absolute.
cossy400 said:
My 2p, shoot me down as you see fit.
The surveyor chap how clear cut is he makin this sound, in terms of is he sayin "that's yours" "not his" ?
And excuse my ignorance but does this or would this not come under his house insurance policy?
From the photos and description its looks like a very good case for "borrowing" an extra foot or two.
My final point is (again excuse my ignorance) but "if" you dragged it thru the courts, why wouldn't he (tha land thief) be made to pay all the fees??
In order:The surveyor chap how clear cut is he makin this sound, in terms of is he sayin "that's yours" "not his" ?
And excuse my ignorance but does this or would this not come under his house insurance policy?
From the photos and description its looks like a very good case for "borrowing" an extra foot or two.
My final point is (again excuse my ignorance) but "if" you dragged it thru the courts, why wouldn't he (tha land thief) be made to pay all the fees??
Boundary surveys aren't absolute because boundaries generally aren't defined in absolute terms, so there's always an element of interpretation. He says there's plenty of indications about where the boundary could be deemed to be, but they're usually very hard to prove. However, he says my dad's position is very well based and evidenced.
My dad's property is a commercial one not residential - though I'm not even sure a residential one would cover this kind of dispute.
At the front of the property he's actually encroached over 2 metres on my dad's land.
Being "awarded costs" does not actually mean the other party pays all the fees, for many reasons (especially if you have incurred unreasonable fees). The courts make a judgement on what constitutes a reasonable amount of your fees that the other party pays. Even if you get awarded costs, you may have a battle on your hands to extract them from the losing party. Your solicitors will want paying, so you have to pay them yourself and then try to get the money from the other party. If they choose not to pay, it's possible to have to clear more legal hurdles to get something out of them.
Edited by PhilboSE on Monday 23 November 17:49
Necro-thread resurrection to give an update.
Long story short: my father tried many attempts at engagement and to reach a mutually workable outcome but they were completely ignored. He engaged surveyors and took the other party all the way to court, retaining a good solicitor and a barrister for the court appearance, with all the usual tricks and tactics tried by the defendant and their solicitor - although they never filed a defence.
Last week judgement was made and my dad was awarded all of his costs to date and the other party has been given until May to remove the building and restore the original boundary. The other party is probably looking at £30,000+ of costs (my dad's plus his own) and has yet to bear the building costs.
The right result in the end, but it has taken 20 months and a significant outlay "at risk" on my dad's behalf just to get there.
Long story short: my father tried many attempts at engagement and to reach a mutually workable outcome but they were completely ignored. He engaged surveyors and took the other party all the way to court, retaining a good solicitor and a barrister for the court appearance, with all the usual tricks and tactics tried by the defendant and their solicitor - although they never filed a defence.
Last week judgement was made and my dad was awarded all of his costs to date and the other party has been given until May to remove the building and restore the original boundary. The other party is probably looking at £30,000+ of costs (my dad's plus his own) and has yet to bear the building costs.
The right result in the end, but it has taken 20 months and a significant outlay "at risk" on my dad's behalf just to get there.
pincher said:
Did the shack get demolished and the boundary restored to the correct place, per the OP’s update?
Yes. As noted above, another thread was interested in documented disputes, I linked to this one. Didn't intend for it to get bumped!The whole situation just kind of fizzled out after the court case. I thought there was almost no chance my Dad would get the money nor the property reinstated as was but much to my surprise it all happened very quickly.
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