Reasonable use of garage?
Discussion
Dear PH lawyer types can I ask a question please? This will be quite a long post, as I think the devil might be in the detail, so please bear with me.
I currently rent a 2 bed seni-detached house with a garage. The garage is one of three that sit underneath the house separated from mine by the communal path. I will try to upload a photo to explain.
I am a serving member of the Armed Forces so I deal with an agent who acts on my behalf, as such I don't see any of the normal rental agreements I sign a copy of a contract with the Army and they provide the accommodation. I have friendly conversations with my neighbours in the connected house, and everyone else in the close I see. I have previously only spoken to the owner of the house over the garage, to be known as Mr x, once in the last 2 years I've lived there and then only to say “morning”.
About 6 weeks asked go I decided to try wood turning and bought a small 3/4hp lathe off eBay. I have got some scraps of wood and try to turn logs into something better than sawdust in the garage. I have deliberately kept the turning to reasonable hours, I've always stopped before 2100hrs, and I don't turn every evening. I don't play music whilst I turn and several of the neighbours stop and chat as they walk past. I have never had and single complaint, indeed his neighbours have offered me their old kitchen cupboards and work surface so that I can make the garage and bit nicer! I stand next to the lathe without hearing protection and it is possible to hold a conversation whilst it is running, although I usually turn it off when speaking. I also a have a small bench grinder that I use to sharpen my tools approximately one a week or so. It never runs for more than a couple of minutes at a time. Other than that there are only normal household tools in the garage.
Last night he approached me when I got back from work and told me that his solicitors had written to the title deed holder of my house but it was for me and gave me a copy. He stated that I had to stop making any noise in the garage and remove the electrical supply. He acknowledged that I hadn't put in the electrical supply but said it had to go. I asked why he hadn't simply spoken to me when I was disturbing him and he said that I should have asked him if I was causing a disturbance!
The solicitors letter states:
“Mr x has been prompted to I vestige the lease because the occupiers of Yyyy ( we take it yourselves) have installed some mechanical equipment and engineering tools in the garage. During evenings and weekends he is spending time in the garage doing what sounds to be metalwork. This is causing excessive noise and vibration in our clients property and is effecting his ability to sleep. Mr x works shifts and needs to be able to rest at home when he is not at work. This can be any time of the day or night. He is also in a job where he is on call and as such, his sleeping patterns are irregular and he has to work anti-social hours.
It is therefore quite important to him that his home is and place of peace and quiet as has hitherto been the case.
In the course of last winter our client noticed that a ceiling strip light had been installed in the garage. It is only recently that the tools and machinery have been installed and put to use.
Due to Mr x's job there is simply no suitable time for people to carry out works like this in the garage and Mr x also concerned about the question of fire safety. If welding is carried out in the garage then that might have implications for the insurance policy.”
It goes on to say that they deem everything to be in breach of the lease and I must stop immediately. The lease they have attached is between a building developments company and 2 named individuals I do not know. They are not Mr x , my landlord or the current deed holder (as named by the solicitors). The lease is dated Nov ’94 and is, I presume, the original lease of the garage to the property when they were both built. The solicitors specifically list 5 breaches, as follows:
“The lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor make any alterations or additions to the Demised Premises …” The installation of an electrical supply is an unauthorised alteration to the Demised Premises.
“The Lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor cut maim or injury the structure or parts of the Block or suspend anything from the ceiling of the garage.” The drilling of the hole in the wall to accommodate the electrical cable and handling a strip light from the ceiling are in breach of the lease.
“The Lessee shall not use the garage upon the Demised Premises other than as a domestic garage for a single private motor car …” The use of the garage for engineering works and metalwork contravenes this part of the covenants.
“The Lessee shall not do or commit or suffer to be done any act or thing on or about the Demised Premises which shall or might grow to be an annoyance or nuisance or cause damage or disturbance to the Lessor ….” Noise from the machinery and works being undertaken in the garage is an obvious disturbance, annoyance and nuisance to Mr x and is in breach of clause 12.
“The Lessee shall not erect and external wires or television aerials.” The erection of the external electrical wires are in breach of this clause of the lease.
The letter then goes on to state that the lease gives Mr x the right to claim back some of his insurance bills for the garage and would I mind paying £zz to him. Now I do not know how long Mr x has lived there and when the electrical supply was put in. It is dug under the path and is a respectable sized SWA that is chased into the walls of my house and fed from a circuit breaker in the fuse box. There is a secondary fuse box in the garage and it all looks like it has been there a long time. Due to the fact I can find no signs whatsoever of the cable being retrospectively fitted, and I don’t think the house has been decorated in 20 years, I suspect that it might be original or at least very old and predate Mr x buying the property. I have asked my agent to try and find the date and if there is any written consent from the owner at the time.
That aside is there any truth in the letter, and I have deliberately left in the grammatical errors and inconsistent language, or do I have a case that undertaking a bit of hobby woodturning in my garage between 1700hrs and 2100hrs is reasonable and he should just get used to it? I am somewhat upset that he couldn’t act like a grownup and talk to me but understand that I have to live with the neighbours.
Many thanks for reading this far and any advice.
Jon
I currently rent a 2 bed seni-detached house with a garage. The garage is one of three that sit underneath the house separated from mine by the communal path. I will try to upload a photo to explain.
I am a serving member of the Armed Forces so I deal with an agent who acts on my behalf, as such I don't see any of the normal rental agreements I sign a copy of a contract with the Army and they provide the accommodation. I have friendly conversations with my neighbours in the connected house, and everyone else in the close I see. I have previously only spoken to the owner of the house over the garage, to be known as Mr x, once in the last 2 years I've lived there and then only to say “morning”.
About 6 weeks asked go I decided to try wood turning and bought a small 3/4hp lathe off eBay. I have got some scraps of wood and try to turn logs into something better than sawdust in the garage. I have deliberately kept the turning to reasonable hours, I've always stopped before 2100hrs, and I don't turn every evening. I don't play music whilst I turn and several of the neighbours stop and chat as they walk past. I have never had and single complaint, indeed his neighbours have offered me their old kitchen cupboards and work surface so that I can make the garage and bit nicer! I stand next to the lathe without hearing protection and it is possible to hold a conversation whilst it is running, although I usually turn it off when speaking. I also a have a small bench grinder that I use to sharpen my tools approximately one a week or so. It never runs for more than a couple of minutes at a time. Other than that there are only normal household tools in the garage.
Last night he approached me when I got back from work and told me that his solicitors had written to the title deed holder of my house but it was for me and gave me a copy. He stated that I had to stop making any noise in the garage and remove the electrical supply. He acknowledged that I hadn't put in the electrical supply but said it had to go. I asked why he hadn't simply spoken to me when I was disturbing him and he said that I should have asked him if I was causing a disturbance!
The solicitors letter states:
“Mr x has been prompted to I vestige the lease because the occupiers of Yyyy ( we take it yourselves) have installed some mechanical equipment and engineering tools in the garage. During evenings and weekends he is spending time in the garage doing what sounds to be metalwork. This is causing excessive noise and vibration in our clients property and is effecting his ability to sleep. Mr x works shifts and needs to be able to rest at home when he is not at work. This can be any time of the day or night. He is also in a job where he is on call and as such, his sleeping patterns are irregular and he has to work anti-social hours.
It is therefore quite important to him that his home is and place of peace and quiet as has hitherto been the case.
In the course of last winter our client noticed that a ceiling strip light had been installed in the garage. It is only recently that the tools and machinery have been installed and put to use.
Due to Mr x's job there is simply no suitable time for people to carry out works like this in the garage and Mr x also concerned about the question of fire safety. If welding is carried out in the garage then that might have implications for the insurance policy.”
It goes on to say that they deem everything to be in breach of the lease and I must stop immediately. The lease they have attached is between a building developments company and 2 named individuals I do not know. They are not Mr x , my landlord or the current deed holder (as named by the solicitors). The lease is dated Nov ’94 and is, I presume, the original lease of the garage to the property when they were both built. The solicitors specifically list 5 breaches, as follows:
“The lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor make any alterations or additions to the Demised Premises …” The installation of an electrical supply is an unauthorised alteration to the Demised Premises.
“The Lessee shall not without the prior written consent of the Lessor cut maim or injury the structure or parts of the Block or suspend anything from the ceiling of the garage.” The drilling of the hole in the wall to accommodate the electrical cable and handling a strip light from the ceiling are in breach of the lease.
“The Lessee shall not use the garage upon the Demised Premises other than as a domestic garage for a single private motor car …” The use of the garage for engineering works and metalwork contravenes this part of the covenants.
“The Lessee shall not do or commit or suffer to be done any act or thing on or about the Demised Premises which shall or might grow to be an annoyance or nuisance or cause damage or disturbance to the Lessor ….” Noise from the machinery and works being undertaken in the garage is an obvious disturbance, annoyance and nuisance to Mr x and is in breach of clause 12.
“The Lessee shall not erect and external wires or television aerials.” The erection of the external electrical wires are in breach of this clause of the lease.
The letter then goes on to state that the lease gives Mr x the right to claim back some of his insurance bills for the garage and would I mind paying £zz to him. Now I do not know how long Mr x has lived there and when the electrical supply was put in. It is dug under the path and is a respectable sized SWA that is chased into the walls of my house and fed from a circuit breaker in the fuse box. There is a secondary fuse box in the garage and it all looks like it has been there a long time. Due to the fact I can find no signs whatsoever of the cable being retrospectively fitted, and I don’t think the house has been decorated in 20 years, I suspect that it might be original or at least very old and predate Mr x buying the property. I have asked my agent to try and find the date and if there is any written consent from the owner at the time.
That aside is there any truth in the letter, and I have deliberately left in the grammatical errors and inconsistent language, or do I have a case that undertaking a bit of hobby woodturning in my garage between 1700hrs and 2100hrs is reasonable and he should just get used to it? I am somewhat upset that he couldn’t act like a grownup and talk to me but understand that I have to live with the neighbours.
Many thanks for reading this far and any advice.
Jon
Edited by Jonleeper on Thursday 26th November 11:22
Just so there are no misunderstandings I have stopped turning and informed the and lord. I have also asked if I can put a shed in the garden so that I can continue .y hobby without disturbing Mr x. It is more his methods than the outcome that has got my back up. Had he spoken to me like a human being g then I'm sure we could have sorted it out between us.
In reply to some of the points I get that he lives above me but are you really suggesting that a small electric motor mounted on a stand and sited on a concrete floor could cause sufficient vibrations to be felt a story above when there is no vi ration in the garage? I get that there is some noise, but not a great deal, but the suggestions that vibration are a problem? Does your washing machine in the kitchen vibrate your bedroom? The balance and vibration of my washing machine as it starts to spin is an order of magnitude greater than my lathe. I couldn't turn on it otherwise!
In reply to some of the points I get that he lives above me but are you really suggesting that a small electric motor mounted on a stand and sited on a concrete floor could cause sufficient vibrations to be felt a story above when there is no vi ration in the garage? I get that there is some noise, but not a great deal, but the suggestions that vibration are a problem? Does your washing machine in the kitchen vibrate your bedroom? The balance and vibration of my washing machine as it starts to spin is an order of magnitude greater than my lathe. I couldn't turn on it otherwise!
Because I hate threads where the op dissappear and I have an interesting update!
Note that I am not turning in the garage and am still trying to get a shed I the garage.
Apparently the power was installed by a professional with the agreement of the previous owner of the house. Son8t is fully legal within the terms of the lease. Thus there can be no complaint about the power. It is now just a disturbance issue. Now if he'd come to speak to me I'd not take this any further, but as he's been an arse I'm considering writing back to his solicitors stating that the power is legal and thus can he get an environmental impact statement done to prove unreasonable noise and vibration. If he can be an arse so can I.
Note that I am not turning in the garage and am still trying to get a shed I the garage.
Apparently the power was installed by a professional with the agreement of the previous owner of the house. Son8t is fully legal within the terms of the lease. Thus there can be no complaint about the power. It is now just a disturbance issue. Now if he'd come to speak to me I'd not take this any further, but as he's been an arse I'm considering writing back to his solicitors stating that the power is legal and thus can he get an environmental impact statement done to prove unreasonable noise and vibration. If he can be an arse so can I.
dingg said:
Jonleeper said:
Because I hate threads where the op dissappear and I have an interesting update!
Note that I am not turning in the garage and am still trying to get a shed I the garage.
Apparently the power was installed by a professional with the agreement of the previous owner of the house. Son8t is fully legal within the terms of the lease. Thus there can be no complaint about the power. It is now just a disturbance issue. Now if he'd come to speak to me I'd not take this any further, but as he's been an arse I'm considering writing back to his solicitors stating that the power is legal and thus can he get an environmental impact statement done to prove unreasonable noise and vibration. If he can be an arse so can I.
Two aNote that I am not turning in the garage and am still trying to get a shed I the garage.
Apparently the power was installed by a professional with the agreement of the previous owner of the house. Son8t is fully legal within the terms of the lease. Thus there can be no complaint about the power. It is now just a disturbance issue. Now if he'd come to speak to me I'd not take this any further, but as he's been an arse I'm considering writing back to his solicitors stating that the power is legal and thus can he get an environmental impact statement done to prove unreasonable noise and vibration. If he can be an arse so can I.
holes = a pair of syour neighbour went about things the wrong way , but you're equally going about things the wrong way.
put yourself in his position for a minute and think what the way forward should be
+ just because the electricity was fitted with permission and by a qualified electrician doesn't mean to say that it legal
Oh and I haven't written anything yet, I'm only considering it.
Ok, so another update.
Firstly I am not using the garage for anything other than storage at the moment. I have only opened the door twice since this whole thing blew up and am still trying to get my landlord to put a shed in the garden.
To answer some of the points raised, I didn't ask if I was disturbing anyone as it dosent make much noise, as I said I can hold a conversation whilst it is running and all of my other neighbour's have chatted to me while I have been turning so it obviously wasn't a problem to them. Also 2100hrs was the latest time I turned to and not often as I normally cook my tea about 1930hrs so am back inside about then.
My landlord has written back to me stating that the power was installed with the written permission of the owners before he bought the house and about 5 years before MrX bought the flat above. His lawyers have a copy of the letter as it was part of the paperwork handed over when he bought the house. His lawyers position is that the power is fine and if Mrx didn't like it then he shouldn't have bought the flat. The fact that Mrx's lawyers admit Mrx never read the lease agreement, as he didn't know he was entitled to some money for the insurance, means that he didn't undertake due diligence and thus cannot complain about the power. Leaving that out they believe that his insistence that I cannot make any noise at anytime is unreasonable and should be challenged. I have simply asked if I can have a shed in the back garden.
So I have been away for the beginning of the week and returned about 2200hrs last night. Tonight Mrx has handed me another letter stating that I "willfully and unreasonably unpacked my car last night after 10 pm" and "must agree never to use the garage in any way that disturbs Mrx as he works shifts" otherwise Mrx will look to revoke the lease! Now all I did was unpack the car, it's gone past funny and starting to make me feel like declaring war and letting the solicitors have a field day!
Firstly I am not using the garage for anything other than storage at the moment. I have only opened the door twice since this whole thing blew up and am still trying to get my landlord to put a shed in the garden.
To answer some of the points raised, I didn't ask if I was disturbing anyone as it dosent make much noise, as I said I can hold a conversation whilst it is running and all of my other neighbour's have chatted to me while I have been turning so it obviously wasn't a problem to them. Also 2100hrs was the latest time I turned to and not often as I normally cook my tea about 1930hrs so am back inside about then.
My landlord has written back to me stating that the power was installed with the written permission of the owners before he bought the house and about 5 years before MrX bought the flat above. His lawyers have a copy of the letter as it was part of the paperwork handed over when he bought the house. His lawyers position is that the power is fine and if Mrx didn't like it then he shouldn't have bought the flat. The fact that Mrx's lawyers admit Mrx never read the lease agreement, as he didn't know he was entitled to some money for the insurance, means that he didn't undertake due diligence and thus cannot complain about the power. Leaving that out they believe that his insistence that I cannot make any noise at anytime is unreasonable and should be challenged. I have simply asked if I can have a shed in the back garden.
So I have been away for the beginning of the week and returned about 2200hrs last night. Tonight Mrx has handed me another letter stating that I "willfully and unreasonably unpacked my car last night after 10 pm" and "must agree never to use the garage in any way that disturbs Mrx as he works shifts" otherwise Mrx will look to revoke the lease! Now all I did was unpack the car, it's gone past funny and starting to make me feel like declaring war and letting the solicitors have a field day!
Sump said:
Sorry, just to confirm, he is now complaining about your unpacking your car at 10pm?
fk that st, go to war.
Apparently so. I opened the garage, turned on the light and put 3 logs and a couple of boxes in, turned off the light and closed the door. I did but my bags, a suit and some paperwork in my house, oh and my work laptop. Not sure how that was unreasonable but, hey, I'm the idiot who thought that by not saying anything he did t have a problem. Oh well I'm not sure how the landlords solicitors will react but I hope I get a shed soon!f
k that st, go to war.I really don't want to escalate this more than necessary but I think he's being a title now. Having spoken to some of the other neighbours he's described as "very quiet" or not really noticed!
There was no conversation this time he just handed me the letter and walked away. I didn't try to stop him as I asumed it was something to do with the original complaint.
Unfortunately my landlord has gone quiet on the shed so I really hope he's not going to take the hump and try and push it by not giving me one. All I want to do is go back to turning a few bits of wood into matchsticks! I was actually looking to see if I could fit theatre inside the house, but the mess really.needs an uncarpeted actually do furnished space.
Jon
There was no conversation this time he just handed me the letter and walked away. I didn't try to stop him as I asumed it was something to do with the original complaint.
Unfortunately my landlord has gone quiet on the shed so I really hope he's not going to take the hump and try and push it by not giving me one. All I want to do is go back to turning a few bits of wood into matchsticks! I was actually looking to see if I could fit theatre inside the house, but the mess really.needs an uncarpeted actually do furnished space.
Jon
Some advice pleae, simply because I'm interested!
The owner of my property has now written to me and we are discussing a shed in the garden. This means that I'm completely out of the loop with the legal side of this. So I am not turning in the garage, yes I've stopped and will not be starting again.
Now the owner has stated that the power and light was installed prior to them purchasing the property. They form part of the estate agents listing! She does not have a copy of the written consent but lived in the house for a couple of years and got on well with the owners of the flat above during this time. Now she is aware that the flat has been sold at least twice since she's owned the property.
My question is this. Does the current flat owner have the legal right to force the owner of my property to remove the power and light? It was definately fitted at the time that they purchased the flat and they have made no move to get it removed until now. Now I'm sure that the lawyers for each side will claim that they're correct but if the power was already fitted, and had been there for a significanticant period of time, then surely his right to complain has to be limited after the event?
Hopefully I'll get back to turning soon in a completly legal shed at the bottom of the garden!
The owner of my property has now written to me and we are discussing a shed in the garden. This means that I'm completely out of the loop with the legal side of this. So I am not turning in the garage, yes I've stopped and will not be starting again.
Now the owner has stated that the power and light was installed prior to them purchasing the property. They form part of the estate agents listing! She does not have a copy of the written consent but lived in the house for a couple of years and got on well with the owners of the flat above during this time. Now she is aware that the flat has been sold at least twice since she's owned the property.
My question is this. Does the current flat owner have the legal right to force the owner of my property to remove the power and light? It was definately fitted at the time that they purchased the flat and they have made no move to get it removed until now. Now I'm sure that the lawyers for each side will claim that they're correct but if the power was already fitted, and had been there for a significanticant period of time, then surely his right to complain has to be limited after the event?
Hopefully I'll get back to turning soon in a completly legal shed at the bottom of the garden!
surveyor said:
Jonleeper said:
Some advice pleae, simply because I'm interested!
The owner of my property has now written to me and we are discussing a shed in the garden. This means that I'm completely out of the loop with the legal side of this. So I am not turning in the garage, yes I've stopped and will not be starting again.
Now the owner has stated that the power and light was installed prior to them purchasing the property. They form part of the estate agents listing! She does not have a copy of the written consent but lived in the house for a couple of years and got on well with the owners of the flat above during this time. Now she is aware that the flat has been sold at least twice since she's owned the property.
My question is this. Does the current flat owner have the legal right to force the owner of my property to remove the power and light? It was definately fitted at the time that they purchased the flat and they have made no move to get it removed until now. Now I'm sure that the lawyers for each side will claim that they're correct but if the power was already fitted, and had been there for a significanticant period of time, then surely his right to complain has to be limited after the event?
Hopefully I'll get back to turning soon in a completly legal shed at the bottom of the garden!
Depends so much on what the Lease says...... But there's probably a bar on it.The owner of my property has now written to me and we are discussing a shed in the garden. This means that I'm completely out of the loop with the legal side of this. So I am not turning in the garage, yes I've stopped and will not be starting again.
Now the owner has stated that the power and light was installed prior to them purchasing the property. They form part of the estate agents listing! She does not have a copy of the written consent but lived in the house for a couple of years and got on well with the owners of the flat above during this time. Now she is aware that the flat has been sold at least twice since she's owned the property.
My question is this. Does the current flat owner have the legal right to force the owner of my property to remove the power and light? It was definately fitted at the time that they purchased the flat and they have made no move to get it removed until now. Now I'm sure that the lawyers for each side will claim that they're correct but if the power was already fitted, and had been there for a significanticant period of time, then surely his right to complain has to be limited after the event?
Hopefully I'll get back to turning soon in a completly legal shed at the bottom of the garden!
If she's not got it in writing I think she's probably bang to rights. Informal consent is not the same as written consent.
Note I am not looking for an excuse to use the garage just trying to understand what the legal position is. And if its worth trying to dig out the earliest deeds I can find for my own house and see if I can benefit from anything 150 years after it was done! ☺☺☺☺☺
northwest monkey said:
Jonleeper said:
Some advice pleae, simply because I'm interested!
The owner of my property has now written to me and we are discussing a shed in the garden. This means that I'm completely out of the loop with the legal side of this. So I am not turning in the garage, yes I've stopped and will not be starting again.
Now the owner has stated that the power and light was installed prior to them purchasing the property. They form part of the estate agents listing! She does not have a copy of the written consent but lived in the house for a couple of years and got on well with the owners of the flat above during this time. Now she is aware that the flat has been sold at least twice since she's owned the property.
My question is this. Does the current flat owner have the legal right to force the owner of my property to remove the power and light? It was definately fitted at the time that they purchased the flat and they have made no move to get it removed until now. Now I'm sure that the lawyers for each side will claim that they're correct but if the power was already fitted, and had been there for a significanticant period of time, then surely his right to complain has to be limited after the event?
Hopefully I'll get back to turning soon in a completly legal shed at the bottom of the garden!
I'm not sure I'd rely on anything written by an Estate Agent as remotely correct or legal and as a Landlord I'd probably go for the easier option and just say you can't use the power. You could be gone after 6 months and I'd be left to deal with a load of moaning neighbours. The owner of my property has now written to me and we are discussing a shed in the garden. This means that I'm completely out of the loop with the legal side of this. So I am not turning in the garage, yes I've stopped and will not be starting again.
Now the owner has stated that the power and light was installed prior to them purchasing the property. They form part of the estate agents listing! She does not have a copy of the written consent but lived in the house for a couple of years and got on well with the owners of the flat above during this time. Now she is aware that the flat has been sold at least twice since she's owned the property.
My question is this. Does the current flat owner have the legal right to force the owner of my property to remove the power and light? It was definately fitted at the time that they purchased the flat and they have made no move to get it removed until now. Now I'm sure that the lawyers for each side will claim that they're correct but if the power was already fitted, and had been there for a significanticant period of time, then surely his right to complain has to be limited after the event?
Hopefully I'll get back to turning soon in a completly legal shed at the bottom of the garden!
Also, have you mentioned to your Landlord about what you want the shed for?
You run the risk of pissing the entire group of neighbours - sheds aren't known for their sound deadening qualities...
As for a shed no-one other than Me x upstairs is at all bothered by me turning in a garage with the door open within 10 feet of their properties, I'm fairly certain that they won't be bothered by me turning in an insulated shed 30 feet away at the bottom of the garden! And I am bloody certain that me turning at 2000hrs is less disturbing than listening to my neighbours shouting at their kids or each other at 0100hrs! I don't company!ain though as, unless I hear screams of pain, its just part of living in a relatively new semi-detached with walls like paper, and one of the reason my own home has proper brick internal walls.
Just to close this thread down, if anyone is waiting. I have not heard nor seen the neighbour so all quiet there. My landlord has taken the legal paperwork and is dealing separately. I have been told to leave the garage as it is but not to do anything noisy in there. My landlord has agreed to part fund a shed and work is ongoing on that in a separate thread.
Many thanks to everyone who responded.
Jon
Many thanks to everyone who responded.
Jon
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