Roof Tile Incident
Discussion
Afternoon folks,
On Christmas Eve, I parked my car on a local high street whilst going to have my hair cut. I returned 20 minutes later to find a group of people stood around my car. A roof tile and a lump of flashing had fallen from an adjacent commercial property and landed on the bonnet. It was a very wet day, not windy. Luckily said people pointed this out to me, given the rain, I was running back to the car and would have jumped in and driven off probably without noticing.
Quotation from VW to replace the bonnet is circa £1200 inc VAT.
Anyway, the building is owned by a group of directors pension fund, and they obviously have liability insurance. However, their insurer has declared today there is no liability on their part as there is no proof of negligence.
The pension fund cannot produce any documents to support any kind of inspection or maintenance on the roof, and they state; "they have owned the property for at least 10 years with no previous incidents of this nature". My argument is, if you own something for 10+ years and never maintain it, at some point it's going to fail. Thus negligence and liability.
Problem is, I really don't know how to move this forward. I'm just trying to avoid putting this through my own insurance, as it will almost certainly lead to a fault claim on my insurance, so increased premiums for the next five years.
Any advice gratefully received.
Jon
Pics below...
On Christmas Eve, I parked my car on a local high street whilst going to have my hair cut. I returned 20 minutes later to find a group of people stood around my car. A roof tile and a lump of flashing had fallen from an adjacent commercial property and landed on the bonnet. It was a very wet day, not windy. Luckily said people pointed this out to me, given the rain, I was running back to the car and would have jumped in and driven off probably without noticing.
Quotation from VW to replace the bonnet is circa £1200 inc VAT.
Anyway, the building is owned by a group of directors pension fund, and they obviously have liability insurance. However, their insurer has declared today there is no liability on their part as there is no proof of negligence.
The pension fund cannot produce any documents to support any kind of inspection or maintenance on the roof, and they state; "they have owned the property for at least 10 years with no previous incidents of this nature". My argument is, if you own something for 10+ years and never maintain it, at some point it's going to fail. Thus negligence and liability.
Problem is, I really don't know how to move this forward. I'm just trying to avoid putting this through my own insurance, as it will almost certainly lead to a fault claim on my insurance, so increased premiums for the next five years.
Any advice gratefully received.
Jon
Pics below...
TooMany2cvs said:
Have to admit, I'm not seeing a requirement for a new bonnet there, either. Or am I missing something?
The photos don't clearly show the damage... the dent is around 2" deep, and has creased the back leading edge nearest the screen. It's also knocked the washer jet and the under-bonnet lining off.
It would have killed someone if it had hit them!
austinsmirk said:
really- would you in all likelihood see that developing ?
No, in truth you wouldn't. Whether it was a rusting nail etc, you wouldn't know till it came down.It just irks though. Incidentally, I called my broker for my own commercial premises, and we are covered for public liability up to £2m, regardless of cause, blame or negligence. If my building damages someone's car, I'm covered.
But their insurer states in their email - "In order for a liability claim to be successful it is required to be proven that our insured have been negligent." So their public liability insurance only stands in cases where they have been negligent.
Seems odd?
Tom_C76 said:
Looking at the photo, did the tile come from the verge of the roof or around the solar panel? If the verge I'd think you have very little chance of proving liability. If the solar installation is new and you could prove the damaged tile related to it you may be able to get somewhere.
I think the tile came from under/around the solar panel, certainly there's no other reason to have lead flashing in the middle of the roof. The panel has been there for 5-6 years from what I understand.
I guess this is one of those take it on the chin things... I probably won't put it through my insurance, the cost with the excess and increased future premiums probably wouldn't be worth it.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Get yourself another broker. The one you've got is an idiot who doesn't even understand the policies he/she is selling.
All commercial policies cover your third party legal liability. That's it. It doesn't cover your own particular morals and what you think you are responsible for. If the law says you're liable, they will cover it. If you aren't legally liable, they won't.
The fact that you have a broker who has such little understanding of such a basic commercial insurance cover is very alarming. Get a new broker....now!
Well that's A-Plan insurance, camberley office. I'll check the policy wording tomorrow.All commercial policies cover your third party legal liability. That's it. It doesn't cover your own particular morals and what you think you are responsible for. If the law says you're liable, they will cover it. If you aren't legally liable, they won't.
The fact that you have a broker who has such little understanding of such a basic commercial insurance cover is very alarming. Get a new broker....now!
As it's less than 2 years old, and I initially thought the building owners would be fitting the bill, I got a main dealer to quote.
As it seems I'll be footing the bill I'll be taking it to the local indy bodyshop for a quote later.
It's difficult to show the ding properly in a photo, the light seems to hide it, but these might be better, and hopefully the right way up.
As it seems I'll be footing the bill I'll be taking it to the local indy bodyshop for a quote later.
It's difficult to show the ding properly in a photo, the light seems to hide it, but these might be better, and hopefully the right way up.
Well this has been a steep learning curve... I'll summarise as people keep suggesting things that have been gone over time and time again.
1. The owners of the building have no liability for objects falling from the building providing they have not been negligent
2. It's nigh on impossible to prove negligence of any kind, thus there is no claim from them.
3. I've accepted the quote from the local man, and I'll be paying him personally. It's simply not worth putting through my own insurance.
4. The directors who own the building are completely up their own arses, and simply don't care.
Lots of people suggesting things like small claims court - pointless. They are not legally liable, so any claim if it went to court would go against me. There is a chance they would settle prior to court, but given the belligerent attitude of their directors, I would doubt that would happen.
I honestly thought at the outset on Christmas Eve, that this would be a simple claim on their policy. As I said at the start of this post, it has been a steep learning curve.
All I can say is that if this happened outside my own commercial premises, I would be completely mortified. Even if my insurers failed to pay out, I would do everything I could to put the situation right. Shame other people in the world don't have the same moral compass.
So that's that - thanks everyone for their contributions.
1. The owners of the building have no liability for objects falling from the building providing they have not been negligent
2. It's nigh on impossible to prove negligence of any kind, thus there is no claim from them.
3. I've accepted the quote from the local man, and I'll be paying him personally. It's simply not worth putting through my own insurance.
4. The directors who own the building are completely up their own arses, and simply don't care.
Lots of people suggesting things like small claims court - pointless. They are not legally liable, so any claim if it went to court would go against me. There is a chance they would settle prior to court, but given the belligerent attitude of their directors, I would doubt that would happen.
I honestly thought at the outset on Christmas Eve, that this would be a simple claim on their policy. As I said at the start of this post, it has been a steep learning curve.
All I can say is that if this happened outside my own commercial premises, I would be completely mortified. Even if my insurers failed to pay out, I would do everything I could to put the situation right. Shame other people in the world don't have the same moral compass.
So that's that - thanks everyone for their contributions.
Thanks roofer and everyone for your input...
I've got the car booked in for two weeks time to go into the bodyshop, as I need it done by the end of Feb.
I'm today compiling a letter to the owners which will form the basis of a claim against them. Based on 'Roofers' identification of the lump of lead as a tingle, I have street-viewed the property, and you can clearly see a tingle on the leading edge of the roofline.
Which was then missing after the tile fell...
Given the owners of the building are a Central Heating Company, I would imagine (but don't know 100%) that this unit on the roof was installed by their own engineers. But regardless of that, the roof was not properly reinstated after installation, which the owners should have ensured it was, so there is a case of liability.
I've got the car booked in for two weeks time to go into the bodyshop, as I need it done by the end of Feb.
I'm today compiling a letter to the owners which will form the basis of a claim against them. Based on 'Roofers' identification of the lump of lead as a tingle, I have street-viewed the property, and you can clearly see a tingle on the leading edge of the roofline.
Which was then missing after the tile fell...
Given the owners of the building are a Central Heating Company, I would imagine (but don't know 100%) that this unit on the roof was installed by their own engineers. But regardless of that, the roof was not properly reinstated after installation, which the owners should have ensured it was, so there is a case of liability.
TooMany2cvs said:
Is the building owned by a pension fund, and occupied by a CH company?
It's owned by a directors pension fund, they are directors of a very large Central Heating company here in Farnborough. The company used to be based in the premises, but have moved to a large unit on an industrial estate. TwigtheWonderkid said:
Dr Interceptor.....did you go back to your own broker, A Plan, who told you that your own commercial property policy covered all tp damage, whether you were legally liable or not.
What was the outcome?
Yes I did... and needless to say I will be changing brokers come renewal time in April.What was the outcome?
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Shocking, isn't it. If the so called professionals don't understand the policies they are selling, then what chance your average Joe in the street.
Our roof is in pretty good condition, when we refurbished the building in 2009, we took down chimneys, so the whole of the roof was checked over, and the bits where the chimneys were properly tiled. Definitely no tingles in there. But it does make you wonder, and think whether one of those guards/nets around the roof edge would be a good idea.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Dr Interceptor said:
Honestly, as I've said before, this has just been a huge learning curve. I honestly would expect me to be covered if it happened to one of my customers/member of the public parked or walking outside!
If you think about it logically, you can only really be covered for legal liability, because the alternative is moral obligation, and whose morals do you go by? Anyway, I'm not really sure how to proceed with this, but I have drafted a letter to the directors, which I'll deliver to them in person. I guess it is up to them to refer it to their insurers to cover their liability? Or would you deliver it to their insurer?
Just to keep you all updated.... all of the evidence and images were compiled into a letter on 25.1.16 and submitted to the directors, council and insurers...
Their reply...
"I write to you in relation to your letter to ************************** dated 26 January 2016.
Please note that the owner of the building is ************************** Pension Scheme and not ************************** . Aviva are representing ************************** Pension Scheme with regards to your claim and therefore replying to the above mentioned letter.
As this is a liability claim then the onus is on you to provide evidence to prove the allegations in which you are making. Please therefore forward the evidence as to which you base the allegations on. The pictures from goggle provided with the letter do not provide evidence of negligence.
Shall your evidence be received then legal liability may be reviewed, although as it stands legal liability is denied on behalf of ************************** Pension Scheme. "
Their reply...
"I write to you in relation to your letter to ************************** dated 26 January 2016.
Please note that the owner of the building is ************************** Pension Scheme and not ************************** . Aviva are representing ************************** Pension Scheme with regards to your claim and therefore replying to the above mentioned letter.
As this is a liability claim then the onus is on you to provide evidence to prove the allegations in which you are making. Please therefore forward the evidence as to which you base the allegations on. The pictures from goggle provided with the letter do not provide evidence of negligence.
Shall your evidence be received then legal liability may be reviewed, although as it stands legal liability is denied on behalf of ************************** Pension Scheme. "
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