Dispute over heating - Landlord & tenant

[S1MMA]

Interesting one for you all, would like the PH expert opinion on this one:

I rent a flat in a converted house, house is 4 stories, each floor is a separate apartment.

The 4 apartments are owned by 2 parties, A and B, who inherited it many years ago. A and B are brother and sister, A owns flat 4 (the flat I rent) B owns flats 1-3. A and B do not get along. B is the freeholder.

The heating for flats 3+4, the top 2 floors, is controlled by one thermostat in a shared hallway with stairs. There is only one boiler and one timer, so we have to effectively share the heating and bills.

This is not ideal, and to be honest we weren't really aware of it before moving in. Bit late after all our stuff arrived.

Me and the Mrs leave the house at 8am and don't get back before 6pm. So heating on before and after this time is ok for us. One of the tenants in flat 3 however works from home and has asked B to put the heating on for 15 hours a day. B has agreed to this and apparently informed A, but no one informed me and I have not agreed to this.

B is a bit of a dictator, what he says goes. It's his house (he is the freeholder) and frankly he seems annoyed that A still owns the top floor apartment. He bought apartment 3 from A many years ago.

In my contract it is written that I have to pay half of the heating bills, but that's all it says. It doesn't say who decided what times the heating is on for. I have asked B for a meeting with his tenants to discuss and reach a compromise as I'm not using the heating for most of the day, so why should I pay for it. The last bill was about £600 for 2 months heating. The flats are around 1600sq ft each, and the shared hallway/stairs also needs to be heated as that's where the thermostat is.

The tenants of flat 3 are refusing to pay the bill as they feel it is too high (even though they requested the longer times!) and I am getting chased for my half. I have responded by saying that I have not agreed to heating outside of 2 hrs in the morning and 2 hrs in the evening - which is what I agreed with B last year. He changed it to suit his tenants and didn't even inform me! B's tenants want B to install a new heating system so we can all control our own heating, but B refuses to do this.

The hilarious thing to all this is that this is not some £300k house in the countryside. The house is worth about £25m. A new heating system would probably cost about £15k, go figure. B prefers to have all this hassle rather than spend a trivial amount of money (to him) on his own property. Shows how the other side live!

What rights do I have here? Is it legal for them to have a joint heating system which B controls to his liking and needs and doesn't give a crap about what I want? If I don't pay and dispute it what are my options? Small claims court any use here? I am technically in breach of my own contract for not paying, but it doesn't state in my contract that B is a dictator that chooses what the heating should do and not do. If this doesn't get sorted I will leave, but it's a shame as its a nice property and we have made it our home. It will be impossible to find another flat this size for similar money also.

Give me your views!

Edited by S1MMA on Friday 5th February 14:28

[S1MMA]

TooMany2cvs said:

S1MMA said:

The heating for flats 3+4, the top 2 floors, is controlled by one thermostat in a shared hallway with stairs. There is only one boiler and one timer, so we have to effectively share the heating and bills.

Me and the Mrs leave the house at 8am and don't get back before 6pm. So heating on before and after this time is ok for us. One of the tenants in flat 3 however works from home and has asked B to put the heating on for 15 hours a day. B has agreed to this

In my contract it is written that I have to pay half of the heating bills, but that's all it says. It doesn't say who decided what times the heating is on for.

This is the only relevant bit.
You are contractually obliged to pay half the heating bill. The heating hours and temperature are not defined.

S1MMA said:

I am getting chased for my half.

As your tenancy requires you to do.

S1MMA said:

What rights do I have here?

You have the right to move if you don't like the tenancy you agreed to.

S1MMA said:

It will be impossible to find another flat this size for similar money also.

And that's something you need to factor in to your decision on whether to accept that property as it is, or to move.

So is there any legal requirement for each apartment to either have its own heating system/thermostat?

The wording of the contract isn't defined wel enough, but as I'm paying for half of the heating I feel I should have 50% say in when it goes on or off. Is that unreasonable?

[S1MMA]

MW-M5 said:

Playing Devil's advocate here but if the house is worth £25m and there are 4 flats your rent, one would assume, will be at least several £000s a month. Therefore using you own argument isn't this abit silly over a few hundred quid heating bill every few months?

As I said I'm only playing Devil's advocate.

I rent one flat, and yes it is several £000 a month.

It's more the principal of the matter than the outright cost, I don't like being told that I have to subsidise someone else's heating bill. Does anyone else here pay for their next door neighbors heating?

If you had to buy your next door neighbor their breakfast every day, even though it's a small amount of money relatively it doesn't make it right!

My point here is that I have no say or influence over something that I am paying half of, how is it fair that B can do whatever he wants or his tenant wants and I suffer for it?

Why can I not have the heating on for 4 hours a day and B's tenants suffer the cold all day, rather than the reverse? Why do they have more rights than me?

Hope that makes more sense.

[S1MMA]

TooMany2cvs said:

S1MMA said:

So is there any legal requirement for each apartment to either have its own heating system/thermostat?

No.

S1MMA said:

The wording of the contract isn't defined wel enough, but as I'm paying for half of the heating I feel I should have 50% say in when it goes on or off. Is that unreasonable?

The wording of the contract was well-enough defined for you to agree to it by signing it.

I had a verbal agreement with B that the heating would be on for 4 hours a day. That is why I signed the contract.

The fact that B is a piece of crap that went back on his word and is now trying to screw me over says more about his ethics. Yes, you are right I trusted a landlord and trusted he would stay true to his word, which he hasn't done. Won't do that again. Sorry that we don't live in a society where people stay true to their word - I forgot we are all out to get each other. Thanks for your comments, no need to add anything further.

[S1MMA]

Jasandjules said:

If there are four flats why are you paying 1/2 to heat all four? Was it made clear to you that there were four flats and you would be paying half the overall heating bill?

The shared heating is just for flats 3+4 - not for all.

It was not made clear this was the arrangement before moving in, neither was it made clear to the tenants of flat 3. This is partly why they are not paying.

[S1MMA]

JM said:

Ask the landlord to fit a heatmeter into each property so you each pay for what you use.

How would this work? Would they have to isolate each flats supply for a meter to be used? Also I assume there would need to be a control of supply to each flat, which currently doesn't exist, it's all or nothing.

[S1MMA]

stuthemong said:

Tell B tenants to get electric heaters for during the day

That was my initial thought - but they are not agreeing to do this. They feel that they should be able to have the heating on when they want to, which I can't argue with, but likewise I should too!

What I may suggest is that I will pay for 4 hours heating a day as I agreed to, and split the bill like that. That way I am paying for what I use. I'm not trying to get out of paying, but I won't pay for their heating when I haven't agreed to it.

[S1MMA]

marshalla said:

So what action did you take as soon as you became aware that this was the situation ? Did you pay your half of the bills, or did you request a change to the heating arrangements ?

I became aware of the situation that the heating was on for longer than 4 hours a day a few months back - as my apartment became a sauna. B's daughter was contacted as to why the heating was on all day by my wife (B lives in Armenia most of the year) to which she was told that they have put it on all day due to their tenants wanting it on all day. My wife reminded B's daughter of our agreement and said we will not pay more than 4 hours a day heating. B's daughter said to take it up with B and the tenants of flat 3.

Now the bill has come it's all being debated.

[S1MMA]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Except B is not your landlord. A is.

B has no responsibility to you, only his own tenant who wants the heating on during the day, which is perfectly reasonable.

Edited by PurpleMoonlight on Friday 5th February 09:13

I don't understand how it's only one way. Why do I not get a say in this when I pay for half of it?!

On that note, I can put my demands to A, pay for what I have demanded, and leave it there? What's the difference?

I cannot see why I have to accept what B says blindly, and why many of you are defending B and telling me to pay half of a bill that I have not agreed to and have no influence over, how does that make any sense?

[S1MMA]

teabelly said:

One boiler and two heating zones would solve the control issue. One thermostat in each flat. Then as B is at home all day they should be paying most of the heating cost.

I reckon you could solve it on the control side for a few hundred quid + fitting. Then agree with B that they pay 60% and you pay 40%. Your flat will be warmer due to theirs being heated.

Under new legislation tenants will be able to install energy saving measures and pay for them. You need the landlord's permission.

This new stuff may also apply: http://www.propertyhawk.co.uk/?communal-heating-re...

I think your landlord can't refuse to sort it out and comply with the communal heating regs.

Hi teabelly - that's really useful, thanks for the information.

Would the one boiler and two zones be a whole new system needed, or modification of the existing system?

[S1MMA]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Your Lease with A appears to bind you to pay 50% of the gas costs incurred by B in the supplying heating to both properties. Unless there is a limitation to that cost stated in the Lease, or a written agreement with B supplemental to the Lease, I fear you are stuffed.

You haven't answered my questions:

1) I don't understand how it's only one way. Why do I not get a say in this when I pay for half of it?!

2) On that note, I can put my demands to A, pay for what I have demanded, and leave it there? What's the difference?

[S1MMA]

BigBob said:

I assume that Flat 3 has Planning for Business use

Could you explain more?

Funny enough the tenants of flat 3 have registered the address as a business address, and have undertaken business functions (including a large event with over 100 people) even though they are renting and I'm pretty sure they can't 1) use the address for a registered company address, 2) use the address for commercial purposes including conducting an event.

But they are the golden tenants of B, so they do as they please.

[S1MMA]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Will that apply though given the OP's landlord is not the supplier of the heating?

The bill is in his name, not in ours. I need to look in to it more, but if he is defined as a heating supplier he could well be stuffed.

from the regs:

“heat supplier” means a person who supplies and charges for the supply of heating, cooling or
hot water to a final customer, through—
(a) communal heating; or
(b) a district heat network;

This would apply to B.

[S1MMA]

tony wright said:

The guy in flat 3 working from home will be spending most of his time in a single room. Why don't you suggest he buys a couple of convector heaters for the daytime and go back to your original agreement.

Read above - I already suggested this but flat 3 tenant says he should be entitled to have his heating on when he wants it, as should I. The two are not objectives that can be achieved together though, which is the problem here.

[S1MMA]

Red Devil said:

These statements are mutually contradictory. What do the Land Registry title document(s) say?

You are quite right, I should have said the apartments are owned by 2 parties. I believe B is the freeholder, but I've not seen the land registry document, it's only what I have been told by the previous tenant.

Red Devil said:

If B is a Heat Supplier (which is quite possible imo) then he will have to comply with the legislation - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/3120/conte...

As the link posted earlier makes clear it could get quite interesting.

Some landlords and property management companies may find these new arrangement may not sit well with existing tenancy or lease provisions, which stipulate that individual tenants are required to make a pro-rata contribution to heating bills or costs. This is something to bare in mind. It might be that tenanancies and leases will need to be amended in light of these changes.

Underline is mine: the speeling mistakes are not

Yes this legislation should make it interesting!

[S1MMA]

AyBee said:

The only way you can deal with this is by reaching a solution with tenant 3. It would seem fair that you only pay for 4/19th of the bill and he pays 15/19ths, but unfortunately you're contractually obliged to pay half. This would have rung alarm bells with me when signing the contract but that's easy to say in hindsight.

You live and you learn, this is the 2nd AST for this property, I've lived there just over a year. In the first year there was a different arrangement for the heating, and the cost was not built in to the contract, this has now changed and the first bill has arrived which is why this has kicked off.

The downstairs tenant will not agree to pay £500 heating bills per 2 months, but as said above that's between them and their landlord. I will certainly not pay for something that I have not agreed on.

[S1MMA]

Right, just to update this generally.

I have an appointment with a housing solicitor booked in the diary now to go over everything, both the dispute and the Heat Network legislation.

I have made contact with the National Measurement and Regulation Office, who monitor and enforce the Heat Networks legislation, and I have presented them with the case to see if B is in breach of his duties (I think he will be).

This is a learning exercise for me, and thanks to those who have given valuable input.

[S1MMA]

Ekona said:

But you have agreed, and that's the trouble.

Ultimately, you're going to have to find some way to work with your landlord and the other tenant that involves compromise to leave you all in a satisfactory position. I'd suggest an arrangement where you get a quote in for the works needed to divy the heating up, and split that cost equally. Might well be cheaper than paying for someone else's heating bill.

No, not really. All of you stating what is in the contract is binding and that is all there is to it, are wrong.

"Is the tenancy agreement ‘unfair’

The tenancy agreement is a form of consumer contract and as such it must be in plain language which is clear and easy to understand. It must not contain any terms which could be ‘unfair’. This means, for example, that the tenancy agreement must not put either you or your landlord in a disadvantageous position, enable one party to change terms unilaterally without a valid reason or irrevocably bind you to terms with which you have had no time to become familiar. An unfair term is not valid in law and cannot be enforced."

from CAB. Didn't see anyone mention that who were stating how I am bang to rights. Is it unfair that I have no control over a heating system that I have to pay half of? Open to debate, I think YES. Let's see what the solicitor says.

I'm not paying for a new system, or anything to do with modifying their property! Why should I? It's not like my landlord or the other landlord have been so reasonable, honest and trustworthy that I'm going to now do them any favours!

[S1MMA]

superlightr said:

whats the cost of the bills and the cost of the rent?

I'm not willing to say how much I pay in rent on a public forum, the bill came in at £600 for 2 months heating for both apartments.

It's a large 2 bed apartment in a prime central London area and is in line with the cost of that type of apartment in the area, although it's a bit dated so is larger than the other more modern apartments in its price range.

Moving is not a problem, and if it comes to it I will move. But I'd rather explore what my options are here first and see if I can come to a resolution. My landlord is trying to support me on this, but is easily bullied by B, so I have to defend myself.

[S1MMA]

PurpleMoonlight said:

I would say that it is not fundamentally unfair that you pay 50% of the heating costs for similar sized properties. And that is what you signed up to, as did the other tenant affected by this.

I would say it is unfair that you now refuse to pay half on that basis that you only want the heating on for 4 hours a day, something that any reasonable person would find inadequate.

But, you seem to want to get your own way regardless of the effects on everyone else involved. I suspect this will eventually see you looking for a new home when your current AST expires.

Anyone ever mentioned sociopathic tendencies to you by any chance?

Thanks for your comments on the thread, but they have all been useless. You know fk all about what you are writing, so I suggest you keep it to yourself.

You think I'm a sociopath because I won't pay half a heating bill when I'm not in the house 70-80% of the time the heating is on. LOL. You most likely don't even know what the word means.

Some more thoughts for those of you who are saying it's in the contract, it's binding:

This is from the FAQ on Heat Network legislation:

"9.1. The billing arrangements are written into the contract with the tenant and we are unable to change them. Can we continue charging the way we are now?

No, the Regulations (as a statutory instrument) have effect at criminal law. The Regulations must be complied with and contractual (civil) arrangements would not constitute a defence."

After reading more of the guidance, I have a good idea that he is in breach of the regulations. £5,000 max fine for being in breach. Oh dear.

For those saying I should buy meters etc:

"9.4. Can I pass on the charge of installing meters to my tenants?

Where meters must be installed, the heat supplier will be responsible for doing this. The Regulations allow for fixed and variable charges to be passed on to the final customer and any fixed costs for recovery of investment would need to be clear in the billing information (Regulation 9(7)(c))."