Potential issue with car trader/dealer - advice welcomed
Discussion
I bought a car recently (2010 320i E91 with 105k) and have had a couple of issues. A couple of days after getting it, I had an "oil pressure" warning (not oil level) and one of those orange "check engine" lights. When the oil warning came up, I stopped the engine immediately. I checked the oil (idrive - takes about 10 minutes) and it said it was ok so I started the car & got no warning.
I spoke to my neighbour (runs a garage) and he recommended plugging it into an Autologic machine & seeing what it said. It came up with a few faults & that some software needed updating. He also advised a flush and oil change as these engines can throw a wobbly if the wrong oil is used. I had a word with the chap I bought the car from & he agreed to pay £150.
After getting this done, the car seemed a lot better - no EML & no oil pressure warning. Fast forward a couple of weeks, after a run on the motorway, the oil pressure warning came back and I've also noticed a noisy rumble/rattle (not sure which) from the engine.
Internet research tells me it could be anything from a Vanos unit, a big end, pistons, oil pump, cam chain, erectile dysfunction, crowns - none of which sound cheap or easy.
I've spoken to the lad I bought it from today & needless to say he wasn't delighted to hear from me. The car was advertised as having a warranty, but I haven't seen any details of this yet. He's said he was going to have a word with his mechanic & get back to me tomorrow.
The guy I bought it from is what I'd call a home trader. He's a registered Ltd company but doesn't have a showroom. The car was advertised at £7995 and we agreed my old car (WBAC value £3500) plus £3600 cash. He put a new MOT on it, a new pair of front tyres and replaced the rear brake pads.
To be fair, the seller has been pretty good so far, but if he did decide to be not so good, what's my next step?
I spoke to my neighbour (runs a garage) and he recommended plugging it into an Autologic machine & seeing what it said. It came up with a few faults & that some software needed updating. He also advised a flush and oil change as these engines can throw a wobbly if the wrong oil is used. I had a word with the chap I bought the car from & he agreed to pay £150.
After getting this done, the car seemed a lot better - no EML & no oil pressure warning. Fast forward a couple of weeks, after a run on the motorway, the oil pressure warning came back and I've also noticed a noisy rumble/rattle (not sure which) from the engine.
Internet research tells me it could be anything from a Vanos unit, a big end, pistons, oil pump, cam chain, erectile dysfunction, crowns - none of which sound cheap or easy.
I've spoken to the lad I bought it from today & needless to say he wasn't delighted to hear from me. The car was advertised as having a warranty, but I haven't seen any details of this yet. He's said he was going to have a word with his mechanic & get back to me tomorrow.
The guy I bought it from is what I'd call a home trader. He's a registered Ltd company but doesn't have a showroom. The car was advertised at £7995 and we agreed my old car (WBAC value £3500) plus £3600 cash. He put a new MOT on it, a new pair of front tyres and replaced the rear brake pads.
To be fair, the seller has been pretty good so far, but if he did decide to be not so good, what's my next step?
Monkeylegend said:
He is probably writing the warranty as we speak.
What do you mean mate?Update...
I phoned the dealer this morning & he sent me a text saying he'd spoken to the warranty company & they've said that as I've had a mate look at it the warranty is invalid. I phoned the dealer & told him that it wasn't a "mate" that looked at the car, it was a neighbour that owns a Bosch Service Centre so he's basically talking b
ks as I don't believe he's even sorted the warranty. He then replied about 20 minutes later saying he'd ring me this afternoon.Before he phoned, I spoke to a BMW specialist and described the symptoms & basically (obviously without him looking at it) it sounds like it could be something major - oil pump, crank or pistons (or something like that) - and could cost anywhere from £1500 to £2500ish for a rebuild (depending on what it needed - £1500 if all 3 things were ok, up to £2500ish if it needed everything replacing).
I then spoke to the dealer & told him I was taking it to a specialist on Friday for him to look at & he's asked me to call him once I know what the score is.
Basically, the fault that is present now is the one it had pretty much immediately after buying the car. I picked up the car on the 19th March & spoke to him on the 25th March after I'd had the "pressure" warning a couple of times. I described the fault (on text which I have a copy of) about it getting very noisy when warm & the pressure warning coming on on the motorway.
So where do I go from here?
I'd rather keep the car (other than the duffer engine I like it) but only if it's fixed. Realistically though, I can't see the dealer coughing up £2.5k on a sub £8k car and I also can't see a warranty company jumping up & down for joy. There's also not a bat in hells chance I'm lumping for it after 5 weeks and 500 miles (give or take) of driving.
4rephill said:
At which point did you give the supplying dealer a chance to get the car fixed himself?
The first time I spoke to him about it. He's about 50 miles from me so he suggested I took it to a local garage to get them to look at it & plug it into a diagnostic machine.4rephill said:
So far it appears that you've taken the car to other people and have asked the dealer to believe what you're telling him and asking him to hand over money for repairs.
I'm not implying that you're lying about the situation, I'm just querying as to whether you've followed the correct procedure required in order to be able to take the sort of action that others are suggesting.
Whilst you have certain rights when it comes to buying a car (especially from a dealer - With business premises or not), there are also certain procedures that should be followed if the car develops a fault.
Not giving the dealer an opportunity to get the car fixed himself/themselves could be a costly error!
When I spoke to him this week, he said he was going to speak to the garage he uses. I suggested that he got the garage to give me a call so I could describe what was happening. If the garage had asked me to bring it in I would have done. It was his idea I take it to a specialist.I'm not implying that you're lying about the situation, I'm just querying as to whether you've followed the correct procedure required in order to be able to take the sort of action that others are suggesting.
Whilst you have certain rights when it comes to buying a car (especially from a dealer - With business premises or not), there are also certain procedures that should be followed if the car develops a fault.
Not giving the dealer an opportunity to get the car fixed himself/themselves could be a costly error!
Muzzer79 said:
northwest monkey said:
So where do I go from here?
Over 7 years on these pages and you've not seen one of these Just-bought-a-car-and-now-it's-fecked-what-do-I-do? threads? 
ked car and (b) I'd have no advice to give being naïve about the situation, I've ignored the threads.Muzzer79 said:
Your whole situation is a bit theoretical at the moment.
Agreed. Hence the "potential" in the thread title.
Muzzer79 said:
The fault might be this or it might be that
The dealer might pay to repair or he might not
It might be covered with the warranty or it might not.
Step 1 - Establish exactly what's wrong with the car. Give the dealer the opportunity to do this through his garage or mechanic if he wants to.
Step 2 - Establish how much it's going to cost to rectify
Step 3 - Establish if the supplying dealer or the warranty will pay for it
Step 4 - If the answer to Step 3 is neither, renew this thread asking for advice; armed with all the facts of your situation. You will then get direct answers rather than what-if answers.
Will do - thanks.The dealer might pay to repair or he might not
It might be covered with the warranty or it might not.
Step 1 - Establish exactly what's wrong with the car. Give the dealer the opportunity to do this through his garage or mechanic if he wants to.
Step 2 - Establish how much it's going to cost to rectify
Step 3 - Establish if the supplying dealer or the warranty will pay for it
Step 4 - If the answer to Step 3 is neither, renew this thread asking for advice; armed with all the facts of your situation. You will then get direct answers rather than what-if answers.
Old Merc said:
The dealer says the warranty is invalid because a third party has been working on it.I think this will be your problem.
You should have taken the car back immediately to be fixed by the dealer under the terms of the warranty.
Your neighbour could be the best master technician in the UK but the dealer and the warranty co could get funny and argue he caused the fault.
I used to be in the car repair business and found most of the "Warranty Company`s" could wriggle out if the T was not crossed or i not dotted,anything to avoid paying up the full amount.
I think you must go for the dealer personally,he has sold you a duffer that you can't use.
Just a thought? have you researched this bloke? is he trading legally? is he allowed to trade from home,VAT,HMRC and all that.
I'm pretty sure the dealer hasn't even bought a warranty. Whenever I've had a warranty on a used car before, I've had all sorts of bumf in the post about renewing it.You should have taken the car back immediately to be fixed by the dealer under the terms of the warranty.
Your neighbour could be the best master technician in the UK but the dealer and the warranty co could get funny and argue he caused the fault.
I used to be in the car repair business and found most of the "Warranty Company`s" could wriggle out if the T was not crossed or i not dotted,anything to avoid paying up the full amount.
I think you must go for the dealer personally,he has sold you a duffer that you can't use.
Just a thought? have you researched this bloke? is he trading legally? is he allowed to trade from home,VAT,HMRC and all that.
Let's clear up the neighbour thing. My neighbour happens to run a garage - I took it there on the advice of the dealer I bought it from. It wasn't done as a freebie.
Black_S3 said:
I don't know if I'm alone, but at 105k miles and 25% of original purchase price I think an element of maintenance above regular servicing should be expected.
Hate to say it, but maybe the wiser option for the OP would have been a new Citroen C1 for the same money?
fHate to say it, but maybe the wiser option for the OP would have been a new Citroen C1 for the same money?
Edited by Black_S3 on Wednesday 27th April 17:27
k me, a real life internet retard. I thought such things were a myth.I'm not complaining about a cup holder not working or the brakes being squeaky, I'm talking about potentially a fairly major component (that being the engine) requiring rebuilding. Personally, I would class that as slightly more than an "element of maintenance above regular servicing".
Maybe the wiser option for option for you would be to get an early night. You've got school in the morning.
POORCARDEALER said:
If you go legal,and he is limited, bare in mind he might disolve the limited company and then you are fked, you wont ever get paid.
He should be sorting it out to be fair, problem with traders working from home is they are working for next to nothing usually, so when it goes tits up they are loathed to pay.
Cross your fingers he comes up trumps for you.
My concern as well & thanksked, you wont ever get paid.He should be sorting it out to be fair, problem with traders working from home is they are working for next to nothing usually, so when it goes tits up they are loathed to pay.
Cross your fingers he comes up trumps for you.
rallycross said:
BMW have really dropped the ball in the past 5-7 years with some of these engines, 4 cylinder petrol and diesels having big problems (previously Id have said these are bullet proof to huge mileages but seemingly not any more)
On these N47 engines there are known problems at higher mileage that include worn bottom end/scored crank/low compression/rattling engines.
I can recommend someone good/cost effective to rebuild it the last one I had done cost me £1600 (2010 318i).
These engines are not available easily 2nd hand, the companies advertising on ebay for supply and fit N47 engines will typically rebuild your own motor (only if they can re-use the crank and get hold of conrods etc if not you are in trouble).
To progress this the car needs to go back to the trader and he has to get a proper diagnosis (suggest a compression test, a Borescope check). If he knows its got problems don't expect too much help.
I would be aiming to get your money back and buy something else.
Shame on BMW for building crap engines when they have been famous for such good engineering for all these years.
I think mine is the N43 (petrol) engine, the N47 (I think) is the diesel one. If you could recommend someone that would be much appreciated - from what I've read, the 318i and the 320i are both the same 2 litre engine in (presumably) a different level of tune.On these N47 engines there are known problems at higher mileage that include worn bottom end/scored crank/low compression/rattling engines.
I can recommend someone good/cost effective to rebuild it the last one I had done cost me £1600 (2010 318i).
These engines are not available easily 2nd hand, the companies advertising on ebay for supply and fit N47 engines will typically rebuild your own motor (only if they can re-use the crank and get hold of conrods etc if not you are in trouble).
To progress this the car needs to go back to the trader and he has to get a proper diagnosis (suggest a compression test, a Borescope check). If he knows its got problems don't expect too much help.
I would be aiming to get your money back and buy something else.
Shame on BMW for building crap engines when they have been famous for such good engineering for all these years.
I've had a few BMWs in the past - E30 (318is), E36 (325tds Touring) and an E46 (330i Convertible). The engines have always been the strongest point in the cars (in fact I sold the E36 with 144k on back in 2004 and it's still going 12 years later!).
Black_S3 said:
northwest monkey said:
fk me, a real life internet retard. I thought such things were a myth.
I'm not complaining about a cup holder not working or the brakes being squeaky, I'm talking about potentially a fairly major component (that being the engine) requiring rebuilding. Personally, I would class that as slightly more than an "element of maintenance above regular servicing".
Maybe the wiser option for option for you would be to get an early night. You've got school in the morning.
Might not be what you want to hear, but it's worth balancing out the ideas of chasing the guy through SOGA...HMRC etc.k me, a real life internet retard. I thought such things were a myth.I'm not complaining about a cup holder not working or the brakes being squeaky, I'm talking about potentially a fairly major component (that being the engine) requiring rebuilding. Personally, I would class that as slightly more than an "element of maintenance above regular servicing".
Maybe the wiser option for option for you would be to get an early night. You've got school in the morning.
You haven't nailed down what the problem is yet so not worth the time spent thinking about how to cause max damage to the guy who sold you the car is all I was trying to point out - especially when you haven't given him the chance to fix the issue.
There's loads of possible issues causing a low oil pressure light:
It could be something as simple as a sludged oil pick up pipe - Given the dealers already paid 150 for an oil change, he will probably sort this if you give him the chance.
It could be the tensioner issue... Cost to fix around £600 - warranty excess could be up to £1000, wear and tear part anyway....
It could be f
ked etc...Anyway best of luck.
Interesting you mention the timing chain. Could that be a cause of low pressure and/or knocking?
4rephill said:
Fair enough - it wasn't obvious from your original post.
Saying that though, do you have any actual physical proof (emails for example), to back that all up if it should go to court?
If it was all based on phone calls only and you don't have any physical evidence to support what he's told you, don't be surprised if the dealer starts claiming that you never gave him the opportunity to fix the car to try to wriggle out of his responsibilities for repairs!
It's quite feasible that the dealer has set up a situation with you that actually could weaken your position when it comes to your rights (That's not to say that is what has happened here, and it's not to say that you wouldn't be believed in a court of Law, but without actual physical evidence, it becomes your word against his as to what actually happened).
I've got the text message I sent him where I described exactly what was happening, after that we spoke on the phone. I've got a text from him asking for my bank details & asking if I can get a receipt for the work I had done.Saying that though, do you have any actual physical proof (emails for example), to back that all up if it should go to court?
If it was all based on phone calls only and you don't have any physical evidence to support what he's told you, don't be surprised if the dealer starts claiming that you never gave him the opportunity to fix the car to try to wriggle out of his responsibilities for repairs!
It's quite feasible that the dealer has set up a situation with you that actually could weaken your position when it comes to your rights (That's not to say that is what has happened here, and it's not to say that you wouldn't be believed in a court of Law, but without actual physical evidence, it becomes your word against his as to what actually happened).
jac-in-a-box said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
The above may help...my experience that was similar to the OP. Good luck!
Just read your thread & glad to hear you got a result - great news!The above may help...my experience that was similar to the OP. Good luck!
andymc said:
so the car was up at £7999 and you paid £7100 theoretically? could you not use the thousand pounds you chipped to get the job done? im playing devils advocate
I thought it was £7999 - it was actually up for £7750. He offered £3800 for my old car & we agreed £3600 cash & he'd get the MOT done, rear brake pads & 2 front tyres. In theory you're probably right, that doesn't excuse people from their liabilities though.Ok, an update...
I went to an engine place today (specialising in BMW & Audi) and they've said it basically sounds like it's the bottom end. Not the worst they've heard (happens at 2500rpm and above basically - motorway speeds), but all the same it needs a rebuild costing from £1500 to £2500 depending on what was needed (crank, oil pump or something else). He wasn't touting for business, in fact his advice was the engines are problematic so return the car.
And therein lies the problem...
I've spoken to the dealer, told him what the specialist said & offered him his details so he can speak to him. He then said he'd call me back. 5 minutes later I get a text saying he's spoken to the warranty company, and they won't pay as I've had someone look at the car and it's no longer his problem. He wont give me the warranty company details (I don't believe for a moment he's even bought a warranty) and is now basically ignoring me.
For clarity, I took it to a local garage on his recommendation. The local garage did the diagnostic scan & then recommended the simplest and cheapest option which was to clear the codes & change the oil/filter. This was recommended as if the incorrect grade of oil had been used previously then that could throw up a pressure warning. I spoke to the dealer, told him what the garage said & he agreed to go ahead & he'd pay the £150. As it turns out, this obviously didn't work. There has been a bit of confusion on here about me taking it to a mate. I didn't - a neighbour owns a garage and I took it there.
He's trading as a Ltd Company but it's his partner (not married) who is down as the director of the company.
So now what?
I went to an engine place today (specialising in BMW & Audi) and they've said it basically sounds like it's the bottom end. Not the worst they've heard (happens at 2500rpm and above basically - motorway speeds), but all the same it needs a rebuild costing from £1500 to £2500 depending on what was needed (crank, oil pump or something else). He wasn't touting for business, in fact his advice was the engines are problematic so return the car.
And therein lies the problem...
I've spoken to the dealer, told him what the specialist said & offered him his details so he can speak to him. He then said he'd call me back. 5 minutes later I get a text saying he's spoken to the warranty company, and they won't pay as I've had someone look at the car and it's no longer his problem. He wont give me the warranty company details (I don't believe for a moment he's even bought a warranty) and is now basically ignoring me.
For clarity, I took it to a local garage on his recommendation. The local garage did the diagnostic scan & then recommended the simplest and cheapest option which was to clear the codes & change the oil/filter. This was recommended as if the incorrect grade of oil had been used previously then that could throw up a pressure warning. I spoke to the dealer, told him what the garage said & he agreed to go ahead & he'd pay the £150. As it turns out, this obviously didn't work. There has been a bit of confusion on here about me taking it to a mate. I didn't - a neighbour owns a garage and I took it there.
He's trading as a Ltd Company but it's his partner (not married) who is down as the director of the company.
So now what?
Monkeylegend said:
Have you actually seen a copy of the warranty he says the car has. You might need it if something else goes wrong. If you go the legal route and he has mis-sold you the car on the basis of a non-existent warranty it might help you.
No, I haven't seen it - he was supposed to be getting the warranty registered & I'd get something in the post but I've had nothing. The car was advertised (and I've got a copy of the Autotrader advert) as having 12 months warranty.hornetrider said:
The warranty co will rightly say go forth etc. This fault is the dealer's responsibility.
Agreed. I've found pictures on Facebook of his missus using the car a couple of weeks before we bought it. My guess is it was her car & it threw up this fault so he's flogged it quick.RobinOakapple said:
You are not going to get any money or a refund from this guy just by asking for it, no matter what legal right to either you may have. Start thinking in those terms when you consider your next step.
So what do you recommend?I'm all for going round & kicking off (or kicking his windows in), however that would get me nowhere (apart from a night in a cell worst case
).hornetrider said:
Insist on handing it back for a refund.
He's said it's nothing to do with him & the warranty wont pay for it & "he hopes I understand his position".I'm pretty sure that's him telling me to FRO so the chances of me just taking it back for a refund seem a bit slim sadly.
Old Merc said:
northwest monkey said:
Monkeylegend said:
Have you actually seen a copy of the warranty he says the car has. You might need it if something else goes wrong. If you go the legal route and he has mis-sold you the car on the basis of a non-existent warranty it might help you.
No, I haven't seen it - he was supposed to be getting the warranty registered & I'd get something in the post but I've had nothing. The car was advertised (and I've got a copy of the Autotrader advert) as having 12 months warranty.Demand a copy dated the day of sale.If he can't come up with one that's got to be miss selling/trade descriptions or whatever.
Trading as a Ltd in his partner's name sounds dead dodgy.Why not bypass him and send a strong "legally worded" letter to her? its "HER?" company.
That was our thoughts as well.
I've asked several times for the warranty details but he won't give them to me...
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