Estate Agent Complaint
Discussion
I'll cut a very long story short. We found a really nice property - a newly converted barn, lovely countryside views, in rural(ish) Cambridgeshire. Only minor drawback was that it was located down a fairly long drive directly off the main A428 between St Neots and Caxton Gibbet.
Whilst there was some road noise evident in the garden, the entire barn faced away from the road, was silent inside, and we had plans to build a large enough car port / garage / annexe to further block noise, plus there was some new hedging planted already which needed time to grow. In short, there was a small small issue with noise, but it wasn't going to get worse and was actually going to be practically eliminated. We factored this into the offer price, and to be fair the developer / vendor had also factored it into their selling price - I think we'd both agree if it was in the middle of a nice village or on a different road, it would have been worth about 20% more.
Offer was accepted, we instructed solicitors, paid mortgage brokers, valuation fees etc. A week or so before exchanging, whilst looking at something unconnected, we discovered that major plans were at quite an advanced stage to 'upgrade' the A428 between the Black Cat roundabout and Caxton Gibbet - as its the only piece of road between Milton Keynes and Cambridge yet to be dual carriageway. We even found a couple of maps showing a 'likely' route - and, you've guessed it, the new dual carriageway is quite likely to pass behind the barn (across the lovely open views) thus potentially ruining the outlook and seriously devaluing the property.
As far as the project goes, I'm well aware that road upgrades often get to a certain point then die a death. They don't get done. Political landscape changes, priorities change etc. However, in this instance, there is budget agreed, a Highways Agency website dealing with it, and public consultation starts in early 2017, with building earmarked for 2020. Ergo it is going to happen, it is just a matter of how and exactly where.
Needless to say we had no choice but to withdraw our offer - we were prepared to work with the minor noise from the existing road, but were not prepared for the 'unknown' of a much larger and busier dual carriageway potentially outside the back door!
The route of the upgraded road is not finalised, and the matter not yet open to public consultation, therefore it does not yet appear on public searches so the conveyancing solicitor is blameless here. However, under the new and improved rules which Estate Agents must adhere to, I believe that proposed major changes to the road on which a property is situated MUST constitute 'material information' and must therefore be disclosed to potential purchasers.
I read through this:
http://www.nfopp-regulation.co.uk/media/1043356/nt...
And was struck by this:
"In the most straightforward property sales, the material information that you should give to consumers may be quite basic (the asking price, location, number and size of rooms, and whether the property is freehold or leasehold). However, depending on the circumstances of each sale, material facts could include the length of the lease, the level of charges payable under a lease, known ambiguities concerning title, significant issues or occurrences at the property, major structural defects, status of connection to mains services/utilities; as well as things which could have an impact on the property such as potential developments, planning issues, highways issues, conservation areas, etc. This information should be provided as early in the marketing process as possible and not left until a potential buyer expresses an interest in a property."
I've made a formal complain to the Estate Agent, but their reply was non-committal. They focused on the fact that no clear route had been agreed so there was no issue yet - and didn't concede that ANY change to the A428 would have an impact on the property. No admissions were made, no responsibility taken, and basically said:
"Whilst we accept that we do have an obligation not ‘to mislead consumers by failing to give them information they need to make an informed decision’ we do not believe that this obligation extends to providing buyers with details of every single possible series of options that may or may not happen in the years ahead."
They've offered a reasonable sum as an offer to settle - but as a gesture of goodwill, not as an acceptance of fault. The sum doesn't cover our outlay, but I'm more angry that they didn't just hold their hand up and say "Sorry, we probably should have said something..."
I can take this to the Property Ombudsman (and a big part of me wants to) - but I wondered if anyone had any experience (from either side) about this sort of estate agent complaint, and can offer input as to whether the particular circumstances above would (or would not) fall under 'material information'...
They are re-marketing the property with no change to the particulars aside from some additional photos, and my guess is they plan to withhold this information from other prospective buyers too.
When we questioned the developer, he said "I'm surprised you didn't know about this..." so for the Estate Agent to duck responsibility just seems plain wrong.
What would you do... take the Estate Agent's money? Push for an apology? Go to the Ombudsman?
Whilst there was some road noise evident in the garden, the entire barn faced away from the road, was silent inside, and we had plans to build a large enough car port / garage / annexe to further block noise, plus there was some new hedging planted already which needed time to grow. In short, there was a small small issue with noise, but it wasn't going to get worse and was actually going to be practically eliminated. We factored this into the offer price, and to be fair the developer / vendor had also factored it into their selling price - I think we'd both agree if it was in the middle of a nice village or on a different road, it would have been worth about 20% more.
Offer was accepted, we instructed solicitors, paid mortgage brokers, valuation fees etc. A week or so before exchanging, whilst looking at something unconnected, we discovered that major plans were at quite an advanced stage to 'upgrade' the A428 between the Black Cat roundabout and Caxton Gibbet - as its the only piece of road between Milton Keynes and Cambridge yet to be dual carriageway. We even found a couple of maps showing a 'likely' route - and, you've guessed it, the new dual carriageway is quite likely to pass behind the barn (across the lovely open views) thus potentially ruining the outlook and seriously devaluing the property.
As far as the project goes, I'm well aware that road upgrades often get to a certain point then die a death. They don't get done. Political landscape changes, priorities change etc. However, in this instance, there is budget agreed, a Highways Agency website dealing with it, and public consultation starts in early 2017, with building earmarked for 2020. Ergo it is going to happen, it is just a matter of how and exactly where.
Needless to say we had no choice but to withdraw our offer - we were prepared to work with the minor noise from the existing road, but were not prepared for the 'unknown' of a much larger and busier dual carriageway potentially outside the back door!
The route of the upgraded road is not finalised, and the matter not yet open to public consultation, therefore it does not yet appear on public searches so the conveyancing solicitor is blameless here. However, under the new and improved rules which Estate Agents must adhere to, I believe that proposed major changes to the road on which a property is situated MUST constitute 'material information' and must therefore be disclosed to potential purchasers.
I read through this:
http://www.nfopp-regulation.co.uk/media/1043356/nt...
And was struck by this:
"In the most straightforward property sales, the material information that you should give to consumers may be quite basic (the asking price, location, number and size of rooms, and whether the property is freehold or leasehold). However, depending on the circumstances of each sale, material facts could include the length of the lease, the level of charges payable under a lease, known ambiguities concerning title, significant issues or occurrences at the property, major structural defects, status of connection to mains services/utilities; as well as things which could have an impact on the property such as potential developments, planning issues, highways issues, conservation areas, etc. This information should be provided as early in the marketing process as possible and not left until a potential buyer expresses an interest in a property."
I've made a formal complain to the Estate Agent, but their reply was non-committal. They focused on the fact that no clear route had been agreed so there was no issue yet - and didn't concede that ANY change to the A428 would have an impact on the property. No admissions were made, no responsibility taken, and basically said:
"Whilst we accept that we do have an obligation not ‘to mislead consumers by failing to give them information they need to make an informed decision’ we do not believe that this obligation extends to providing buyers with details of every single possible series of options that may or may not happen in the years ahead."
They've offered a reasonable sum as an offer to settle - but as a gesture of goodwill, not as an acceptance of fault. The sum doesn't cover our outlay, but I'm more angry that they didn't just hold their hand up and say "Sorry, we probably should have said something..."
I can take this to the Property Ombudsman (and a big part of me wants to) - but I wondered if anyone had any experience (from either side) about this sort of estate agent complaint, and can offer input as to whether the particular circumstances above would (or would not) fall under 'material information'...
They are re-marketing the property with no change to the particulars aside from some additional photos, and my guess is they plan to withhold this information from other prospective buyers too.
When we questioned the developer, he said "I'm surprised you didn't know about this..." so for the Estate Agent to duck responsibility just seems plain wrong.
What would you do... take the Estate Agent's money? Push for an apology? Go to the Ombudsman?
digimeistter said:
Hardly the Agent's fault, do you expect them to do extensive research on proposed / possible developments on every property?
Your truck should be with your solicitor as this would undoubtedly have shown up on the local search.
Actually yes - that is their job. Your truck should be with your solicitor as this would undoubtedly have shown up on the local search.
From the same document:
"4.10 There is a requirement on you to make reasonable checks in order to find out if any material information exists. For example, this may include the existence of any planning or conservation issues which directly affect the property."
That the road project is going ahead is a matter of public record. When we spoke on the phone afterwards, they admitted they knew about it, but were more focussed on a larger project also in the area (upgrade of the A14) for which the digging started late last month.
It is big news in the local area.
It echoes another case at the Ombudsman:
"In another case study, buyers withdrew because of a major local development of 1,200 houses on what would have been their doorstep in the draft local plan. They found out about it only after watching a local news programme.
The agent had not told them about this, even though the draft local plan had been made public months beforehand.
The agent contested that the buyers had never asked about any proposed local developments.
The ombudsman said that the size of the development proposed was material information which should have been disclosed, and given its public nature, he did “not consider any claim of ignorance on the agents’ part was reasonable in the circumstances”."
Flooble said:
Yes, I'd take the money and move on. There are so many proposed schemes, routes etc. that for the Agent to highlight everything would be just as meaningless - you'd have dozed off before they had mentioned everything. For example, were you aware of the houses to be built on Bourn Airfield (possibly, maybe)? Or the new bus route from Cambourne?
There's trivial things, and there's important things...FrankAbagnale said:
Got a map of the house/road?
1200 houses on the doorstep and a proposed road that spoils a view could be very different things.
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
The 1200 houses is a different case I found when looking at ombudsman responses...1200 houses on the doorstep and a proposed road that spoils a view could be very different things.
I'd be interested to see how this plays out but am very surprised the agent offered up any compensation, even if it was no actual admission of liability.
Background: http://roads.highways.gov.uk/projects/a428-black-c...
Interesting news article (2014) including a 'suggestion' for the route: http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/long_term_transpor...
OS Map showing house location: https://binged.it/2eucrkz
Useful to see that the road has little chance of routing south of the existing A428 unless they want to demolish a moated settlement, ancient woodland and a whole bunch of other stuff, suggesting the map in the news article is actually reasonably likely...
surveyor said:
It's full of conflicts this one. If there is a negative factual information that's what searches are for. The proposed scheme is not factual, it's route is not even known. The agent acts for the vendor, not the purchaser... there is really no straightforward answer, unless they can persuade the client to perhaps pre-agree what they are to say.... but that may make the property unsaleable in the short term.
Whilst the route isn't known, the fact that the project is going ahead isn't open to question. The agents are just being blasé about it.Whilst the road itself might not see the light of day until at least 2020, the property would devalue as soon as next year - i.e. as soon as the proposed route is published (assuming of course that the proposed route does negatively impact the property).
But that's for the buyer to know and understand, not for the estate agent to fail to disclose...
FrankAbagnale said:
Can you point me to the official documentation that shows that new road as a suggested route that is being considered? I'd imagine this to be a highways England document or something similar.
It seems like that map screenshot from the huntspost is taken from an official document of sorts. Possibly from the "transport group"?
My initial thoughts, based on the information in those links only, is that the project is at a very very early stage and the new road specifically has only been proposed by a transport group (usually local residents/councillors who hold no real power?) that it holds next to no weight at this current time. Of course that could change.
If there is no document carrying serious weight from a recognised body that is seriously putting that route forward I don't think the agent has done much wrong.
If agents had to make buyers aware of projects suggested by local councils/steering groups/transport groups 6-12 months before there is even a consultation of all proposed options, 18-24 months before a preferred option is put forward and 24-30 months before consultation on the preferred route is opened I hate to think of the legal minefield that would open up.
Am I right in reading the house sits on an the south of the A428 and the proposed new road is being built circa 400m north of the A428? Terrible diagram below...
All that said, this is a grey area for agents and I would genuinely be very interested to see how this plays out.
No official documentation, although we've found different versions of that map (2 in total) in other semi-official documents. The road has full funding and was announced in the Chancellor's autumn statement in 2014 as part of a raft of measures for this part of the world. After long delays, the A14 is finally being upgraded although plans have been kicked around for upgrades to the A1 from Baldock to Alconbury too, those are definitely a pipe dream at the moment. It seems like that map screenshot from the huntspost is taken from an official document of sorts. Possibly from the "transport group"?
My initial thoughts, based on the information in those links only, is that the project is at a very very early stage and the new road specifically has only been proposed by a transport group (usually local residents/councillors who hold no real power?) that it holds next to no weight at this current time. Of course that could change.
If there is no document carrying serious weight from a recognised body that is seriously putting that route forward I don't think the agent has done much wrong.
If agents had to make buyers aware of projects suggested by local councils/steering groups/transport groups 6-12 months before there is even a consultation of all proposed options, 18-24 months before a preferred option is put forward and 24-30 months before consultation on the preferred route is opened I hate to think of the legal minefield that would open up.
Am I right in reading the house sits on an the south of the A428 and the proposed new road is being built circa 400m north of the A428? Terrible diagram below...
All that said, this is a grey area for agents and I would genuinely be very interested to see how this plays out.
The house actually sits on the NORTH side of the current A428 - if you look along from the dot positioned by postcode, it is a building which forms the northernmost part of North Farm, and is being marketed as 'North Farm Barn'. In truth its a lovely (to me) building and I'm gutted we had to pull out, but emotions aside it is too big a gamble without knowing where that road will go.
surveyor said:
But the route is not published. And the agent acts for the vendor not the buyer.
Not saying your wrong, but equally the seller paying his fees would be less than happy if he was telling everyone that a road might or might not be going behind..,
I'm not saying they should disclose the route. They can't as it hasn't been finalised. Even I'm not that picky!Not saying your wrong, but equally the seller paying his fees would be less than happy if he was telling everyone that a road might or might not be going behind..,
What they should have disclosed is that there are major upgrade works proposed for the A428 which the property sits on. Nothing more than that, as they wouldn't be expected to know that. We could then have looked into it ourselves and made an offer accordingly.
FrankAbagnale said:
I can imagine it is absolutely gutting when you think you've found the house of your dreams.
Whatever happens, best of luck!
Looking hard at a plot a bit further north in order to build something instead... but thanks, yes, will take the positives from this and make the best if it!Whatever happens, best of luck!
superlightr said:
Agree with this.
Why didn't you do some research of the area before spending your money? What about if the flight path changes and you havnt been told of that? How on earth can the EA be expected to disclose non formal and non approved ideas?
Take it to the property ombudsman I would be curious to see what they say. Doubt if you would win a bean. Also surprised the EA have offered anything.
Its not official, and funding can get pulled at any time, its not even been formally approved as no formal rout has been set
Of course we researched the area!Why didn't you do some research of the area before spending your money? What about if the flight path changes and you havnt been told of that? How on earth can the EA be expected to disclose non formal and non approved ideas?
Take it to the property ombudsman I would be curious to see what they say. Doubt if you would win a bean. Also surprised the EA have offered anything.
Its not official, and funding can get pulled at any time, its not even been formally approved as no formal rout has been set
I know a lot of you are saying it the EA can do what they like, but actually they can't... in the last couple of years regulation of the industry has really tightened up, and EA's have an absolute duty not only to hand over all information they are aware of which could affect a buyer's decision to proceed, but also have a duty to go looking for information as well.
I don't want to get drawn into an argument (especially not with you, digi!) along the lines of 'caveat emptor' as things have moved on in the EA world since the 90's. Whilst that used to be the case, it clearly isn't any longer!
FWIW I have further explained to the EA that I think they need to revisit their response and have given them time to do it, so I have a while to think about my next steps.
I've been offered money - but sometimes "what is right" is more important than "here's some hush money" so I just wanted PH opinion. Seems you're probably 70:30 with the EA - but if this was a car being sold at a dealer and they had omitted to tell me some pertinent information which they would be required by law to tell me, perhaps the collection PH answer would be different?
Again, FWIW, our solicitor said:
“I am very surprised that this was not stated in the Agents Particulars in view of the fact that the Developer says he know (sic) about it. I was not aware of this proposal and it would not come up on the searches as it has not gone for public consultation.”
There are various rulings with the Property Ombudsman where information has not been provided to buyers which has later come to light, and action taken against the EA. Seems to be a criminal offence with unlimited fines, so it is taken quite seriously. Seems to be generally Trading Standards who take it to court. I'm not suggesting anything like that is necessary here - just giving some background for those who think the EA can do what they like and work solely for the vendor. They may be PAID by the vendor, but they have a duty to the buyer...
pork911 said:
So the estate agent failed to disclose something that you already knew about before incurring any fees?
No, we didn't know about this as we aren't local to the area, don't get the local newspapers and although we knew about the A14 upgrades, we weren't aware of proposals for the A428.I can see where you are coming from, but it is somewhat of a moot point. If the EA has an obligation and duty to ensure the buyer has 'material information' and doesn't provide it, then it doesn't matter if our solicitor tells us, we find out on the news or we find out when the road gets built.
We're going round in circles here. EA must divulge information. They didn't. Do I take it further?
pork911 said:
So these proposals were only in local hard copy newspapers were they?
How did you learn of it only after and apart from all of your 'research'?
Your wishing to focus on their duty doesn't mean any failure there is the real reason you pulled out.
How much is the goodwill gesture, how much were the fees you've lost and how much do you want?
We learnt of it looking into proposed roadworks to resurface parts of the A428 as it will be more heavily used during the A14 upgrade work. Just happened to find the Highways Agency page doing a google search on A428 roadworks. Came as a bit of a shock...How did you learn of it only after and apart from all of your 'research'?
Your wishing to focus on their duty doesn't mean any failure there is the real reason you pulled out.
How much is the goodwill gesture, how much were the fees you've lost and how much do you want?
Wouldn't have found it ourselves otherwise - it falls under the heading of things that local people who are interested in local stuff would know about, people like estate agents SHOULD know about, and people who are in the consultation areas who got letters etc.
No - obviously the proposals weren't only in local newspapers, that was just an example of the fact that it was 'local' news and not widely reported outside of the area. Falls under the heading of stuff you expect to hear either from the solicitor (if its in searches) or the estate agent (if its in searches anyway, but also other stuff)
The Moose said:
Are these the proposals that come up as the 3rd result in Google for the search 'A428'?!
Our replies crossed - but yes we found it when specifically looking for A428-related information, as the road is also undergoing a programme of work to resurface as its the main relief road (and thus more heavily used) when there are issues on the A14.But as I keep saying - whether or not we found out about it (we did, eventually) is a moot point. The EA should have known and ergo should have mentioned it. That's what the law says!
pork911 said:
When (later, apparently) looking for information about the road right by the house. Hmmm.
Anyway, how much goodwill offer, your fees and what you want? (Other than an admission written in blood of the agent's first born)
You can be as cynical as you like, but yes... we were actually researching the ongoing roadworks:Anyway, how much goodwill offer, your fees and what you want? (Other than an admission written in blood of the agent's first born)
http://www.eltisleyvillage.co.uk/wordpress/wp-cont...
Having seen the closures and diversion signs and being aware of a summer of works, we wondered how it was going and when exactly the bit around the 'new house' would have been closed.
Unless, of course, you think we knew about it all along, made an offer and got to a week before exchange before magically pulling our 'get out' card from up our sleeve and withdrawing from the purchase? And risk losing our own buyer who isn't in a chain, and who offered asking price for our place without it even going on the open market, as well as going through the emotional upheaval of being committed to the move, talking to architects about a planning application for garages, meeting landscape designers there to sort the garden, and the BT install I had booked for 3rd October? Yes, seems legit...
There's not much point me going into detail of the financials. They've offered a settlement but no admission of 'guilt' - the settlement is probably about 2/3rd of our actual costs (factoring in mortgage broker fees, mortgage valuation fee, conveyancing costs) and whilst I can use that money to offset the costs we've already laid out, and whilst I'd rather it was in my bank account than theirs, a part of me thought that "hush money" wasn't the right way to deal with this.
However, most people seem to think 'take the money and run' so maybe that's the right answer.
Danielson73 said:
Some interesting perspectives on this route.
I come from a background as someone who was previously involved in producing congestion reduction plans, analysing journey times/congestion, incident reduction, causes of congestion/delay and accident hotspots on this and many other HE roads in the East of England.
This section of the A428 is currently an awful stretch of road, one of the most congested in the East of England in terms of delay. As others have said, during peak times its a car park. As a result, the air quality for those living adjacent to it must be terrible. Any one trying to drive out of the various side roads/access out onto the main road in the mornings is reliant on compassionate motorists to slow/stop and let them out! which is one of the reasons for the congestion/stop start effect at peak periods, that and the two roundabouts at either end of this stretch. So, its long overdue an upgrade as is the Black Cat roundabout. I had the misfortune of driving from Bedford to Cambridge as my daily commute for 6 months and you soon learn to avoid the A428 and find all the rat runs/back country lanes between St Neots and Caxton Gibbett.
It also happens to be the next best option when the A14 is closed/clogged for accidents and roadworks, and its lack of capacity in coping with the additional A14 traffic just compounds its unattractiveness as a road to live on to me and further supports the need for dualling. There were up to 30-40 nights a year where it was acting as the diversion route for the A14, and maybe 10-15 days a year when its being used in daytime for accident diversions.
So, I see a new bypass as only improving the quality of life for residents on the 'old' A428 and I would not be surprised if most residents supported a bypass.
However, I understand the OPs stance that not knowing the new route is a big gamble to take for any potential property purchasers. During any consultation period, there would be ample opportunity for any interested parties to engage HE and influence the route/issues but ultimately they will make a decision for the greater good/cost to taxpayer. Its also worth noting that according to the HE website they are already consulting with those likely to be impacted by the proposals so they must have an idea what the options are likely to be but maybe thats too late now for OP.
Aye - we were aware that this wasn't the best of roads, but as I mostly work from home or occasionally just needed to take the back route to St Neots station - and Mrs. Timetex has her own business based in Biggleswade so can leave and return pretty much when she likes, and go via the Gamlingay / Potton back route, the bork factor for us was relatively low.I come from a background as someone who was previously involved in producing congestion reduction plans, analysing journey times/congestion, incident reduction, causes of congestion/delay and accident hotspots on this and many other HE roads in the East of England.
This section of the A428 is currently an awful stretch of road, one of the most congested in the East of England in terms of delay. As others have said, during peak times its a car park. As a result, the air quality for those living adjacent to it must be terrible. Any one trying to drive out of the various side roads/access out onto the main road in the mornings is reliant on compassionate motorists to slow/stop and let them out! which is one of the reasons for the congestion/stop start effect at peak periods, that and the two roundabouts at either end of this stretch. So, its long overdue an upgrade as is the Black Cat roundabout. I had the misfortune of driving from Bedford to Cambridge as my daily commute for 6 months and you soon learn to avoid the A428 and find all the rat runs/back country lanes between St Neots and Caxton Gibbett.
It also happens to be the next best option when the A14 is closed/clogged for accidents and roadworks, and its lack of capacity in coping with the additional A14 traffic just compounds its unattractiveness as a road to live on to me and further supports the need for dualling. There were up to 30-40 nights a year where it was acting as the diversion route for the A14, and maybe 10-15 days a year when its being used in daytime for accident diversions.
So, I see a new bypass as only improving the quality of life for residents on the 'old' A428 and I would not be surprised if most residents supported a bypass.
However, I understand the OPs stance that not knowing the new route is a big gamble to take for any potential property purchasers. During any consultation period, there would be ample opportunity for any interested parties to engage HE and influence the route/issues but ultimately they will make a decision for the greater good/cost to taxpayer. Its also worth noting that according to the HE website they are already consulting with those likely to be impacted by the proposals so they must have an idea what the options are likely to be but maybe thats too late now for OP.
The issue with going ahead with the purchase was one of uncertainty. There's a chance that the new road could bypass the barn by a wide enough margin that not only do we not see it or hear it, but (as someone has already mentioned) it would mean a net gain as the existing A428 would be detrunked and become little more than a local backwater - thus taking the main road from the end of the drive. However, there was an equal or greater chance that the new road would be in eye/ear shot of the barn and make life worse.
Once there is certainty with the decision, it settles the 'value' of the property - it could go UP by £100k or down by £300k. The smart money, no matter how emotionally attached you get to moving there, pulls out and lets someone else take the gamble.
So the update is, having written to the EA, they had until Wednesday to respond in full. They did, but effectively brushed aside what I had said, and although were clear not to admit any liability, as a gesture of goodwill made a offer to pay reasonable costs up to £1500. I wrote back immediately suggesting they had missed the point and encouraging them to ignore the route itself (they had become focussed on where the road may/may not go, and the fact that the route isn't known) and focus on the pure and simple fact that the road upgrade is planned, budgeted for and under consultation - and asked them to make a judgment as to whether THIS was material information (not the route itself which isn't yet 'fact'). I gave them until today to reply.
They did so this afternoon. They still claim none of their staff were aware of the A428 upgrade (which makes me lol) but did say:
"Of course we are now aware thanks to your diligence and as such, any interested parties will be informed of the proposals for “Improving the A428 near St.Neots” at the appropriate stage. Further to your concerns I have taken advice and have been informed that it is not necessary to include details of any such proposals in adverts. It would however be advisable for us to inform interested parties before any “transactional decision” was made. Our staff have of course been advised accordingly. "
They've also asked what I would accept to settle, as I'd indicated that £1500 was below the level of costs I had paid out (roughly £1800 in mortgage broker and valuation fees, plus the solicitors fees which I'm getting a bill drawn up for on Monday when they open).
So the matter isn't fully sorted, but I have already got the non-financial conclusion I wanted. I got as close as I'm ever going to get to them admitting they withheld that information from me - but they have at least taken advice and should at least be letting other prospective buyers know - so they can make an informed decision. The financials compensation is the easy bit - I don't want more than I've laid out - I just didn't think I should be out of pocket for their poor judgment, and I wanted to make sure as best I could they didn't do it to anyone else.
Have to say this thread didn't go QUITE the way I expected - seems the majority sided with the EA and thought this was information I should have found out for myself. Actually I did find it out for myself, in the end - but the point is if the EA had made that information available before (in their words) a "transactional decision" was made then I wouldn't have made the offer. For some people, they'll make the offer anyway - but they have to do so with all the information they are legally entitled to.
As people have said on this thread - we have definitely dodged a bullet. This specific set of circumstances was a grey area where unless we knew what to look for, stumbling across the information would probably be down to luck. Also wouldn't be down to the solicitor since it wouldn't appear on a formal search. Maybe something the valuation could have picked up if the valuer happened to have very specific local knowledge (unlikely) - but it should have been something which the EA knew about, and had a duty to pass on.
Had our buyer got their act together we would actually have exchanged before we found out about this - that's how close it was. And I still think there's a chance the road won't impact the property, but in the cold light of day I'm not the one to take that gamble.
The main reason for starting this thread was that I had already made a complaint to the estate agent, but although they had offered a 'goodwill gesture' I didn't think they had treated this situation seriously enough and were either not aware of their obligations to buyers or simply didn't care about them.
I wanted advice on whether anyone else had faced a similar issue, and whether I should pursue it further, or just take the money being offered.
It has certainly sparked an interesting debate and a fair bit of finger pointing about whether we did our own due diligence on buying the Barn! Not to mention the actions of Estate Agents and their obligations...
I just wanted to update this thread again - after their noncommittal first reply on Wednesday (received just before I wrote the initial post, I think!), even though it included an apparently 'generous' goodwill gesture, I wrote back to give them an opportunity to review their stance, giving a couple of days to do so. They did email back on Friday and we were clearly much more aligned on what constitutes 'material information', which was as close as I was going to get to an admission / apology. I had told them their offer (£1500) didn't go far enough to cover my costs, so I spoke to mortgage broker and solicitor on Friday to draw up a full breakdown of my costs incurred - mortgage broker, property valuation, solicitors fees for the purchase and the linked sale of our own property. Without embellishment, I submitted these costs (£3591) yesterday...
6:20am today, the Director of the underlying estate agent emailed to increase their goodwill gesture from £1500 to £3591 in full and final settlement - so I guess they really don't want this to go to the ombudsman and want to close the matter as much as I do. Along with their previous commitment to ensure other prospective purchasers would be made aware of the road upgrades (and invited to make their own minds up on the matter) I think this has ended with a positive outcome.
Still a bit gutted not to be moving there but that's life. I wouldn't have offered if we'd known about the road, so at least we're back financially to the same position we were before.
Moral of the story - Estate Agents have to abide by the rules!
I wanted advice on whether anyone else had faced a similar issue, and whether I should pursue it further, or just take the money being offered.
It has certainly sparked an interesting debate and a fair bit of finger pointing about whether we did our own due diligence on buying the Barn! Not to mention the actions of Estate Agents and their obligations...
I just wanted to update this thread again - after their noncommittal first reply on Wednesday (received just before I wrote the initial post, I think!), even though it included an apparently 'generous' goodwill gesture, I wrote back to give them an opportunity to review their stance, giving a couple of days to do so. They did email back on Friday and we were clearly much more aligned on what constitutes 'material information', which was as close as I was going to get to an admission / apology. I had told them their offer (£1500) didn't go far enough to cover my costs, so I spoke to mortgage broker and solicitor on Friday to draw up a full breakdown of my costs incurred - mortgage broker, property valuation, solicitors fees for the purchase and the linked sale of our own property. Without embellishment, I submitted these costs (£3591) yesterday...
6:20am today, the Director of the underlying estate agent emailed to increase their goodwill gesture from £1500 to £3591 in full and final settlement - so I guess they really don't want this to go to the ombudsman and want to close the matter as much as I do. Along with their previous commitment to ensure other prospective purchasers would be made aware of the road upgrades (and invited to make their own minds up on the matter) I think this has ended with a positive outcome.
Still a bit gutted not to be moving there but that's life. I wouldn't have offered if we'd known about the road, so at least we're back financially to the same position we were before.
Moral of the story - Estate Agents have to abide by the rules!
FrankAbagnale said:
Has been an interesting thread indeed. Well done for getting your costs covered, i'm still very surprised the agent offered any gesture at all.
I think once they made a first offer they hung themselves somewhat.
I'm sure you'll find something better without the complication of a major road being built in your garden in the near future!
Thanks Frank. The tone of their correspondence changed completely, so I'm guessing they took some external advice. Either that, or the initial response was a 'hope this goes away quickly and without admitting anything' - either way I got the result I wanted.I think once they made a first offer they hung themselves somewhat.
I'm sure you'll find something better without the complication of a major road being built in your garden in the near future!
Already looking at something 'better' and an interim move to a lovely market town to experience a different life for a year, so a new chapter all round!
digimeistter said:
A very interesting thread indeed Tim. I try to keep up with the latest legislation and this thread has made me re-visit my due diligence.
I would prefer you had taken it to the Ombudsman, I can't help thinking there is more to this though, especially the way they have caved. I would have taken it to the Ombudsman myself as the agent in this scenario.
Well done for getting a result though.
Ombudsman would have been interesting - there have been similar claims settled, as well as some Trading Standards have taken to court. But the awards seem relatively low (maybe these people hadn't incurred the same level of costs?) - and ultimately I had both the things I was after - an admission that they should have told me (I got as close to that as I could) plus my costs covered so there was no gain for me to go to the ombudsman as the only thing extra would have been 'compensation' and I wasn't after that.I would prefer you had taken it to the Ombudsman, I can't help thinking there is more to this though, especially the way they have caved. I would have taken it to the Ombudsman myself as the agent in this scenario.
Well done for getting a result though.
Cheque's is the post, I should have it tomorrow I guess.
Probably don't want to get drawn into some sort of 'internet argument' about taste - suffice to say we liked it, it suited us, and had some major design plans for the interior, landscape plans for the garden, plus the building of a large 'L' shaped garage block with 2-bedroom 'apartment' as a granny flat / annexe.
It does look a bit anodyne on the photos but it is a nice place to be inside. Finished to a good standard (at least it would have been with some snagging) And at 4500+ sq ft with 1+ acre, it actually wasn't too bad value for the snip under £1m we had offered. £220 per square foot isn't too bad - and it was going to gain fitted wardrobes in all the bedrooms, the wooden flooring continued throughout the 2 remaining downstairs rooms plus all of upstairs, the window removed in the bathroom and fitted with a larger one, a roof window put in as well, the smaller velux windows replaced with the same sized ones as in the hall, etc. etc. Then our own style applied to make it 'home'.
I don't suppose you'd be that keen on what we've sold (for more than we were paying for this barn) either - but each to their own!
It does look a bit anodyne on the photos but it is a nice place to be inside. Finished to a good standard (at least it would have been with some snagging) And at 4500+ sq ft with 1+ acre, it actually wasn't too bad value for the snip under £1m we had offered. £220 per square foot isn't too bad - and it was going to gain fitted wardrobes in all the bedrooms, the wooden flooring continued throughout the 2 remaining downstairs rooms plus all of upstairs, the window removed in the bathroom and fitted with a larger one, a roof window put in as well, the smaller velux windows replaced with the same sized ones as in the hall, etc. etc. Then our own style applied to make it 'home'.
I don't suppose you'd be that keen on what we've sold (for more than we were paying for this barn) either - but each to their own!
superlightr said:
I see they have removed the advert and marked it as STC. Lets hope they are not portal juggling by removing and then relisting a little time later as that's now an offence from 1.10.16
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-44676309.htmlOf course they are... they relisted on 28th September.
Actually in all of this, the property was originally marketed some time ago and was on our 'shortlist' but as we hadn't sold ours we weren't in a hurry to view / offer. It did, then, go 'under offer' and a sale was obviously proceeding.
It came back on the market when that sale fell through. We were aware a sale would have fallen through, and asked the agents why at the time (standard question I would have thought!) before, after a couple of viewings, making an offer.
In my experience, agent's answers at this point can be too vague to be of any real help, and there's obviously no real way to verify their answer so you do just have to take it on face value in the knowledge that if they've lied and are caught out the consequences are severe.
It is a good point though - and in hindsight I wonder now exactly why the previous prospective purchaser did pull out and whether their circumstances were similar. I'd hope not but I've no way to know.
It came back on the market when that sale fell through. We were aware a sale would have fallen through, and asked the agents why at the time (standard question I would have thought!) before, after a couple of viewings, making an offer.
In my experience, agent's answers at this point can be too vague to be of any real help, and there's obviously no real way to verify their answer so you do just have to take it on face value in the knowledge that if they've lied and are caught out the consequences are severe.
It is a good point though - and in hindsight I wonder now exactly why the previous prospective purchaser did pull out and whether their circumstances were similar. I'd hope not but I've no way to know.
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