Any Property Boundary Expert On Here?
Discussion
Hello,
We have recently bought a property and have moved in. The house next door to us is under council ownership and the tenants from what we understand have been there quite a long time. When we bought the property we were told that some of the land on the left of our house (that at first glance appears to be next door's front garden) belongs to us. When I asked how much, they said they weren't sure and to check the title plan. Anyway throughout the process of buying the house this was glossed over somewhat and also forgotten on my part which has resulted in me being unsure whether I own the bit of land or not.
Here is my house on the title plan -
As you can see, the boundary line on the left runs from the back of the property to the path at the front of the property, widening slightly at the path that runs along the front of the house parallel to the road. If you look at the pictures of the house as it stands today you will notice that the garden fence stops at the entrance from our driveway, and then in front of that is the grass that looks like next door's front garden. If the fence in the garden continued all the way to the front of the drive and up to the path then I believe it would put some of this land to the left of my driveway inside my boundary. Take a look at the pictures below and hopefully you can see what I mean -
Picture of my garden fence meeting the panel that has the entrance door from the drive.
Picture showing how the panel that has the entrance door from the drive looks when standing on the drive.
Picture when standing at the top of the drive, hopefully you can still see the fence panel from the garden to the left of the door to enter the garden.
So basically what I want to know is do you think looking at everything that I've shown you that I own some of the land to the left of my drive?
A part of me thinks that I do based on the fact that if the fence from my garden ran all the way to the top of the drive that some of the land would be on my side of the fence. The other part of me could see that I don't as I have heard some people say that boundaries shown on title plans are not always as they are on paper and in reality can be defined by physical features such as hedges and I guess in my case a driveway edge.
You may also be wondering why does it even matter for such a small piece of land? Well if it is mine, I would like to put a short fence on it which I am planning to do anyway it will just be a question of whether it goes on the edge of my drive or on the land to the left of it. It is also a case of principle, this is my first house and if the land is rightly mine then I want it! The other thing to consider is that when we viewed the house, the attempt of a shingled area was not there and this has been done during the time of us viewing the house and moving in. Based on this I would assume the council tenant next door thinks the land is theirs, to be clear we have had no dialect whatsoever about this yet. I was hoping that after seeing some responses on here I could get some advice on how to approach that if the consensus is that I do own it. I don't want things to be bad with the neighbour, but at the same time if the land is mine then they shouldn't be bitter about it.
Finally, I have shown my solicitors the same pictures and her opinion was that we don't own the land to the left of the drive, but she said that she is not a surveyor and to be honest I don't think she looked at the pictures properly!
So if anyone on here has experience in this area or just an opinion I'd be interested to hear it.
TL;DR - There's some land next to my driveway that I think I might own, but I'm not sure and not sure what to do next.
We have recently bought a property and have moved in. The house next door to us is under council ownership and the tenants from what we understand have been there quite a long time. When we bought the property we were told that some of the land on the left of our house (that at first glance appears to be next door's front garden) belongs to us. When I asked how much, they said they weren't sure and to check the title plan. Anyway throughout the process of buying the house this was glossed over somewhat and also forgotten on my part which has resulted in me being unsure whether I own the bit of land or not.
Here is my house on the title plan -
As you can see, the boundary line on the left runs from the back of the property to the path at the front of the property, widening slightly at the path that runs along the front of the house parallel to the road. If you look at the pictures of the house as it stands today you will notice that the garden fence stops at the entrance from our driveway, and then in front of that is the grass that looks like next door's front garden. If the fence in the garden continued all the way to the front of the drive and up to the path then I believe it would put some of this land to the left of my driveway inside my boundary. Take a look at the pictures below and hopefully you can see what I mean -
Picture of my garden fence meeting the panel that has the entrance door from the drive.
Picture showing how the panel that has the entrance door from the drive looks when standing on the drive.
Picture when standing at the top of the drive, hopefully you can still see the fence panel from the garden to the left of the door to enter the garden.
So basically what I want to know is do you think looking at everything that I've shown you that I own some of the land to the left of my drive?
A part of me thinks that I do based on the fact that if the fence from my garden ran all the way to the top of the drive that some of the land would be on my side of the fence. The other part of me could see that I don't as I have heard some people say that boundaries shown on title plans are not always as they are on paper and in reality can be defined by physical features such as hedges and I guess in my case a driveway edge.
You may also be wondering why does it even matter for such a small piece of land? Well if it is mine, I would like to put a short fence on it which I am planning to do anyway it will just be a question of whether it goes on the edge of my drive or on the land to the left of it. It is also a case of principle, this is my first house and if the land is rightly mine then I want it! The other thing to consider is that when we viewed the house, the attempt of a shingled area was not there and this has been done during the time of us viewing the house and moving in. Based on this I would assume the council tenant next door thinks the land is theirs, to be clear we have had no dialect whatsoever about this yet. I was hoping that after seeing some responses on here I could get some advice on how to approach that if the consensus is that I do own it. I don't want things to be bad with the neighbour, but at the same time if the land is mine then they shouldn't be bitter about it.
Finally, I have shown my solicitors the same pictures and her opinion was that we don't own the land to the left of the drive, but she said that she is not a surveyor and to be honest I don't think she looked at the pictures properly!
So if anyone on here has experience in this area or just an opinion I'd be interested to hear it.
TL;DR - There's some land next to my driveway that I think I might own, but I'm not sure and not sure what to do next.
Edited by Al U on Friday 21st October 15:11
hornetrider said:
Well. I can see your point, in that there is not a straight line continuing from your rear garden fence, through the gate fence, and then down the length of the drive.
However. For the sake of a foot of width, it sounds like a massive can of worms. Plus, if you put a fence there, it will only make it more difficult to open your car door.
I'd leave it as is for a happy life
Well that is the thing, if the land is mine I can have the fence far away enough from the drive that it won't have any impact on door opening.However. For the sake of a foot of width, it sounds like a massive can of worms. Plus, if you put a fence there, it will only make it more difficult to open your car door.
I'd leave it as is for a happy life
Leaving it as is for a happy life is the what my partner has suggested so far.
Edited by Al U on Friday 21st October 16:07
trickywoo said:
If the rear fence line is correct I'd agree with you however, if the rear fence line isn't right the neighbouring property could be due what currently appears to be your land due to it being too far over.
While the drive looks like its been in place a good while and you don't know the layout before it was there it would be strange to put a drive in only marginally short of the boundry. I'd expect it to be on the boundry or at least a wheel barrows width spare.
IMO its a bit of a can of worms and if it was me I'd ask the neighbours about the possibility of you putting a fence up before going down the 'I think this land is mine' route.
That is a very good point and something I hadn't considered. However the wood fence panels in the garden are in line with the concrete posts with wire fence further down the garden that all the gardens have and I assume have been there for a long time. While the drive looks like its been in place a good while and you don't know the layout before it was there it would be strange to put a drive in only marginally short of the boundry. I'd expect it to be on the boundry or at least a wheel barrows width spare.
IMO its a bit of a can of worms and if it was me I'd ask the neighbours about the possibility of you putting a fence up before going down the 'I think this land is mine' route.
surveyor said:
I think the answer is probably yes....
If you look at the title it shows the left hand boundary as being straight.... If I'm reading your photo's correctly at the end of the drive, and in line you have a gate to the rear garden, There is then an additional fence panel to the left of that gate?
I suspect (but am not certain) that if you extend the fence line separating you and your neighbours garden, you are likely to be following the correct boundary.
In this situation, talking to your neighbours before building barriers would certainly do no harm....
An apt username to be commenting on things of this nature!If you look at the title it shows the left hand boundary as being straight.... If I'm reading your photo's correctly at the end of the drive, and in line you have a gate to the rear garden, There is then an additional fence panel to the left of that gate?
I suspect (but am not certain) that if you extend the fence line separating you and your neighbours garden, you are likely to be following the correct boundary.
In this situation, talking to your neighbours before building barriers would certainly do no harm....
Your interpretation of the pictures is also spot on, there is a small fence panel to the left of the door to the garden, I believe that if you drew a line from the left of that fence panel to the front of the drive then some of the land on the left of the house would be on our side of the fence.
When you say talking to the neighbours, how should I even start the conversation? Should I go round there with a title plan and basically say that I am planning to put up a fence soon and there may be some workmen on the grass there and also that you have put your gravel pit on my land? As they are council tenants I imagine they have never seen the title plans to be fair.
Edited by Al U on Friday 21st October 16:11
Edited by Al U on Friday 21st October 16:13
herewego said:
Not a boundary expert but I think the OP is correct. It looks like 400 to 500 of the grass strip is yours. I notice though that none of the other houses have front boundaries marked so if you put a fence up it might look a bit precious. Do the others have front fences? I wouldn't be accepting that gravel though.
I would try to make at is inoffensive as possible. The other houses do have clearly defined boundaries but most of these are with concrete paths or hedges, we are the end of a terrace of about 6 houses and the only one with a drive.Durzel said:
Al U said:
Leaving it as is for a happy life is the what my partner has suggested so far.
Sounds like prudent advice.If it's not causing you practical grief, then that might be better than the alternative - which ranges from everything going your way all the way up to acrimonious neighbour issues that you end up having to tell any prospective purchasers about should you want to move in the future. Could easily end up being a pyrrhic victory.
Maybe worth sounding the neighbours out to get a sense of how they might react.
surveyor said:
I'd nip around with the title plan - show the straight boundary and explain you'd like to put a fence along.... If they get funny then it's time to involve the council (or more likely the Housing Association).
All this relies on your boundary fence being in the correct position. No way to confirm that from a computer, but it does not at first glance appear massively wrong.
I am confident that the other fences are in the right position, all of the houses on this road are ex-council as far as I am aware and the wire fences in the garden that everyone has are in my mind the boundary markers (which I think is more than a reasonable assumption).All this relies on your boundary fence being in the correct position. No way to confirm that from a computer, but it does not at first glance appear massively wrong.
I think going round there with the title plan is a good shout and just making them aware that I am either going to put a fence or hedgerow along it.
Which is handy as my company only let you add it at renewal time.Mandat said:
Contact the Council rather than the tenants, since the council are the owners of the neighbouring property.
Once you raise the boundary dispute with the council, you'll need to be prepared to back up your claim that the boundary line is where you say it is. You'll most likely need copies of your property deeds and title plan, and details of the report on title that your conveyancing solicitor would have prepared when you were buying the property.
You might also want to obtain a copy of the title plan / deeds to the neighbouring property, at least to see what they say about the particular boundary in dispute.
As other have already said you might want to make certain that the fencing to the rear garden is actually in the correct location before you embark on raising the boundary issue, as you might end up losing part of your garden if it turns out that the rear fence is in the wrong place.
Backing up my claim that the boundary line is where I say it is may be pretty hard when everything on the land registry website basically says that they cannot accurately say where a boundary is and it's usually a physical feature but sometimes not and is better agreed between neighbours!Once you raise the boundary dispute with the council, you'll need to be prepared to back up your claim that the boundary line is where you say it is. You'll most likely need copies of your property deeds and title plan, and details of the report on title that your conveyancing solicitor would have prepared when you were buying the property.
You might also want to obtain a copy of the title plan / deeds to the neighbouring property, at least to see what they say about the particular boundary in dispute.
As other have already said you might want to make certain that the fencing to the rear garden is actually in the correct location before you embark on raising the boundary issue, as you might end up losing part of your garden if it turns out that the rear fence is in the wrong place.
My title plan shows the boundary of the neighbouring property, you can see it in the image so I don't think there is much point getting that to just realise that the lines we are seeing have become bold and red, no?
About making certain, the only certainty I have is that the fences I have shown pictures of are lined up exactly with the concrete posted wire fences in the back garden that every house in my terrace row has. They are the only common boundary feature on all of the houses.
surveyor said:
It's not a dispute yet. It's simply a case of needing to establish it.
The council / Housing Association will take ages to deal with it. Far quicker to deal with the people who will be knowing on your door with hammers if they don't like it now.
If they kick a stink then ask the council for support and see if it turns into a dispute...
I think this is a good idea. I think I'll go round there and say that I'm not sure if you are aware but some of the land to the side of the house is actually within our boundary and we are planning to put a hedge/fence up soon. If they get arsey then as you mention I'll just get onto the council and take it from there.The council / Housing Association will take ages to deal with it. Far quicker to deal with the people who will be knowing on your door with hammers if they don't like it now.
If they kick a stink then ask the council for support and see if it turns into a dispute...
The ideal scenario would be them saying that's fine go ahead and then the only further problems would come from the council challenging me on the fence/boundary.
The Surveyor said:
Al U said:
I don't want it to be honest, just what is rightfully mine in the first place.
The earlier comment from 'surveyor' is good advice here, it does look like the intended boundary runs straight along the line of your rear garden fence. However, do be very careful using statements like 'just what is rightfully mine' when it comes to boundaries. What you are looking for is an opinion on where the actual boundary is intended to be, if there is no physical feature the Land registry plans are just not sufficiently accurate to be used to stake definitive claim on what is rightfully yours.Many a well meaning person has spend fortunes trying to claim something that they think they have a right to. Be warned, and for the sake of your own sanity and wealth, please don't start a boundary dispute on the grounds of 'what is rightfully mine'!
You bought the house without caring how much grass you owned beyond the drive, the next buyer will do the same unless there is an on-going boundary dispute and then you'll have no end of trouble selling, and that will impact on the value of your home much more than 'owning' some grass that you're free to use at the moment.
I'll go and speak to the neighbours during the day tomorrow at some point.
jkh112 said:
One thought I had was to look at the google maps satellite image of your property and see if there is any correlation between the front or rear fence lines to your deeds, it might support your theory or it might show the rear fence line is incorrect (or it might not show anything!)
Post the image here.
The image even when fully zoomed in is too blurry to draw any conclusions from.Post the image here.
Hi Guys,
Here is the photo someone requested looking from the house to the top of the drive. To me this point at the top corner of the drive matches the plan but if the drive was at the full extent of what I am perceiving to be the boundary then there would still be a point albeit further along if that makes sense.
Also surveyor thanks for the offer I am going to see how going round there plays out first although I have the added complication of the Mrs explicitly saying she doesn't want me going round there in case I upset neighbourly relations now.
ETA - sorry the pic has uploaded rotated, I'm on my phone so can't sort it.
Here is the photo someone requested looking from the house to the top of the drive. To me this point at the top corner of the drive matches the plan but if the drive was at the full extent of what I am perceiving to be the boundary then there would still be a point albeit further along if that makes sense.
Also surveyor thanks for the offer I am going to see how going round there plays out first although I have the added complication of the Mrs explicitly saying she doesn't want me going round there in case I upset neighbourly relations now.
ETA - sorry the pic has uploaded rotated, I'm on my phone so can't sort it.
Edited by Al U on Sunday 23 October 14:46
To be honest on reflection what I am going to propose and what I would like is to move the gravel pit that is in front of my fence and put a hedge in along the drive. I'm going to go and have a chat soon at some point just need to figure out how to get the mrs on board with that now.
Update -
Went and spoke to the neighbour and it was all friendly on both sides which is good. She mentioned that she had spoken to the council recently because she too was thinking about putting a fence up and the council told her that the entirety of the grass to the side belongs to them. She also said that the previous owner was sent a letter from the council around 2 months ago saying that the land is not part of their property. Therefore I think it's been a case of some enhanced marketing from the estate agent and seller because they had said that some of the land to the side of the drive may also be theirs but they are not sure how much. Key word there being "may". Importantly for me the land was not a make or break for me buying the house otherwise it would have been at the forefront of my mind during the conveyancing process.
At the start of the conversation I said that I was thinking about putting up a hedge and she said that if we still want to do the hedge we are more than welcome to, which was nice of them.
To be honest now that I've been told that I feel totally different about it all. At the end of the day if it's not my land then I have no preference to what they do with it because really it's none of my business. I think if I still wanted to pursue it, it would be a case of going into a boundary dispute with the council and to be honest I'm not interested in that for what I'd get out of it. I'll give the council a call to see if I can get a copy of the letter or similar as I'd be interested to see it.
Other than that thanks for all of the input from everyone, I feel like I've got a weight off my mind.
Went and spoke to the neighbour and it was all friendly on both sides which is good. She mentioned that she had spoken to the council recently because she too was thinking about putting a fence up and the council told her that the entirety of the grass to the side belongs to them. She also said that the previous owner was sent a letter from the council around 2 months ago saying that the land is not part of their property. Therefore I think it's been a case of some enhanced marketing from the estate agent and seller because they had said that some of the land to the side of the drive may also be theirs but they are not sure how much. Key word there being "may". Importantly for me the land was not a make or break for me buying the house otherwise it would have been at the forefront of my mind during the conveyancing process.
At the start of the conversation I said that I was thinking about putting up a hedge and she said that if we still want to do the hedge we are more than welcome to, which was nice of them.
To be honest now that I've been told that I feel totally different about it all. At the end of the day if it's not my land then I have no preference to what they do with it because really it's none of my business. I think if I still wanted to pursue it, it would be a case of going into a boundary dispute with the council and to be honest I'm not interested in that for what I'd get out of it. I'll give the council a call to see if I can get a copy of the letter or similar as I'd be interested to see it.
Other than that thanks for all of the input from everyone, I feel like I've got a weight off my mind.
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