Incompetent DVLA legal advice please.

[frankenstein12]

Hi right.

A weird one. Last March 2016 I MOT'd my car, sent off for a new V5 and set up a direct debit to pay my road tax. All was well with the world and life carried on.

On the 18th of November 2016 I found my car clamped on the street for no tax. I found this odd. I called the DVLA who advised the car was showing on their system as having no registered keeper and as such in July they cancelled the road tax direct debit.

To be fair to them I don't recall ever receiving a new V5 and certainly cant find one at home but after sending off for it gave it no more thought.

Under the new road tax system when you tax the car you have to put in the cars details as well as your own such as Name address and bank details. I asked why they had not contacted me to enquire why the car was not registered and they said they didnt have to.

As such I had to go into town the same day and pay for 6 months road tax up front, £100 to remove the clamp and I also had to pay £25 and hand over a V62 for a new V5 as I no longer had any paperwork. I asked the woman at the post office counter for the V62 back so I could post it to the DVLA and she said they would forward it for me.

Bearing in mind that was the 18th of November 2016 I have still not received the V5 for my car.

I sent off an email complaint around a week ago demanding the DVLA refund the clamping fee. I have heard nothing back.

Today I came home to a letter

We have received an offence report that on the 18/11/2016 the above vehicle was seen on X road whilst unlicensed. Even if the vehicle has been licensed since this date the offence still stands.

This relates to section 29 Offence using/keeping a vehicle and is separate to the fees paid to the agencies wheel clamping contractors.

As our latest information shows you were the registered keeper on that date we now request that you take action.

If you were the keeper on the date of the alleged offence an out of court settlement of £206 is required to avoid court action. Please make your cheque or postal order payable to dvla and return no later than 06/02/2017.



Any ideas on how I deal with this?

Thanks

[frankenstein12]

sherbertdip said:

frankenstein12 said:

Hi right.

A weird one. Last March 2016 I MOT'd my car, sent off for a new V5 and set up a direct debit to pay my road tax. All was well with the world and life carried on.

On the 18th of November 2016 I found my car clamped on the street for no tax. I found this odd. I called the DVLA who advised the car was showing on their system as having no registered keeper and as such in July they cancelled the road tax direct debit.

To be fair to them I don't recall ever receiving a new V5 and certainly cant find one at home but after sending off for it gave it no more thought.

Under the new road tax system when you tax the car you have to put in the cars details as well as your own such as Name address and bank details. I asked why they had not contacted me to enquire why the car was not registered and they said they didnt have to.

As such I had to go into town the same day and pay for 6 months road tax up front, £100 to remove the clamp and I also had to pay £25 and hand over a V62 for a new V5 as I no longer had any paperwork. I asked the woman at the post office counter for the V62 back so I could post it to the DVLA and she said they would forward it for me.

Bearing in mind that was the 18th of November 2016 I have still not received the V5 for my car.

I sent off an email complaint around a week ago demanding the DVLA refund the clamping fee. I have heard nothing back.

Today I came home to a letter

We have received an offence report that on the 18/11/2016 the above vehicle was seen on X road whilst unlicensed. Even if the vehicle has been licensed since this date the offence still stands.

This relates to section 29 Offence using/keeping a vehicle and is separate to the fees paid to the agencies wheel clamping contractors.

As our latest information shows you were the registered keeper on that date we now request that you take action.

If you were the keeper on the date of the alleged offence an out of court settlement of £206 is required to avoid court action. Please make your cheque or postal order payable to dvla and return no later than 06/02/2017.



Any ideas on how I deal with this?

Thanks

I'm sorry I can't help in this, it does look very odd, but why were you sending off for a new V5 at the same time as having an MOT for a car you all ready own, this could be the root of the problem.

I have trade insurance and prior to that point the car had been sat in my private courtyard insured under my trade policy. Oh I have just realised at the point of sending off for the V5 it will have been taxed for a period of time prior anyway by direct debit so forget the whole I taxed it at the same time.

Clearly it was taxed already and I simply MOT'd it and sent off the new keepers docs for the V5.I need to go through my banking records to see when I originally taxed it but I am certain it had been taxed for a few months already.

[frankenstein12]

TooLateForAName said:

frankenstein12 said:

Clearly it was taxed already and I simply MOT'd it and sent off the new keepers docs for the V5.I need to go through my banking records to see when I originally taxed it but I am certain it had been taxed for a few months already.

I bet this is the issue. Remember that tax now expires on a change of keeper. When you sent off the V5 thst will have registered a change of owner and end of tax.

You would think but the root cause was that when I sent the original new keeper request for the log book in march they did not register the car hence why they cancelled the road tax direct debit.

[frankenstein12]

brrapp said:

OP , can you explain the circumstances again please, I'm sorry if I'm a bit slow but I'm still trying to piece together what happened so that I or someone else might be able to help/give advice.

I think I'm missing something in understanding what went on so would be grateful if you could clarify.Can you set down a timeline to help us help you sort it out? ie. date you got car, date you set up tax, date you notified changes etc.
Thanks .

Ok TImeline

Bought car in 2015 cant remember exact date i think mid year June/July

Car was sat in off road courtyard unused and was taxed via monthly direct debit and insured on trade policy.

March 2016 Put New Mot on car and sent off new keeper supplement to put car in my name and started using car as my daily.

November 2016 Car was clamped for No road tax.
Contacted DVLA who stated they cancelled/stopped taking the Direct debit end of July 2016 as car not registered.

Same day car was clamped I paid for clamp to be removed and went to the post office and paid for 6 months tax up front and handed over £25 and a v62 form to request the V5/log book . The post office took the V62 put some details on their system and when I asked for the V62 back so I could mail it they said it wasn't necessary as they would forward it to the DVLA.

I have now received a fine from DVLA enforcement stating their records show I was the keeper of the vehicle on the date it was clamped. I have spoken with the DVLA V5 department who state there is no keeper against my cars details as apparently they never received the V62 document.

As such how could DVLA Enforcement records show me as the keeper on the date of the offence as I have no prior contact with them?


This is all starting to get extremely annoying and stressful. My hands are very much tied as I can appeal the fine however I have to appeal the fine to the DVLA who will beyond any doubt reject the appeal as they wont want to admit mistakes and I cannot allow them to then take me to court and risk losing and getting a ccj.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Thursday 26th January 17:11

[frankenstein12]

JB! said:

New vehicle tax laws are pointless and st, so frustrating, I feel for you OP.

I have never come across a more incompetent bunch of assholes in my life. At the moment if I appeal the fine and they reject the appeal the DVLA through their incompetence will have cost me the better part of £1000 over the last 2 and a half years.

[frankenstein12]

Sheepshanks said:

frankenstein12 said:

Bought car in 2015 cant remember exact date i think mid year June/July

Who did you register it to?

Nobody as I didn't need to as it was on a trade policy.

[frankenstein12]

Sheepshanks said:

frankenstein12 said:

Sheepshanks said:

frankenstein12 said:

Bought car in 2015 cant remember exact date i think mid year June/July

Who did you register it to?

Nobody as I didn't need to as it was on a trade policy.

Did you or the seller send off the yellow part of the V5C to say it had been sold into the trade?

Bought from a trade auction so yes. DVLA have the car on their system as "in trade" according to a woman i spoke to today.

[frankenstein12]

Red Devil said:

frankenstein12 said:

Any ideas on how I deal with this?

1. Pay them.
2. "See you in court" Put simply given the nature of my day to day work even if I wanted to that's not an option
If 2, what will your defence strategy be?

frankenstein12 said:

Car was sat in off road courtyard unused and was taxed via monthly direct debit and insured on trade policy.

So you're in the motor trade. You should surely know the rules better than an ordinary MoP. The above is as I understand it not relevant.The car was taxed and insured and it was also kept off the public highway until I sent off to put the car in my name.
The car was registered as in trade on their system whilst sat in my yard.

The DVLA cancelled the road tax 4 months after I sent the new keepers paperwork to them.
I was also not a full time trader. I have a normal day job and had a trade policy as I chop and change cars quite often due to doing high mileage and was going to try my hand at buying and selling a few alongside my day job but decided its not worth it.

frankenstein12 said:

March 2016 Put New Mot on car and sent off new keeper supplement to put car in my name and started using car as my daily.

Did it not strike you as odd that you did not receive a new V5C at any point during the next 6 months? I would have had I realised I had not received it and I would have promptly followed it up unfortunately as I have already said I have a very bad memory and don't exactly go through all my cars documents on a regular basis for no reason.

Also, why oh why didn't you do the change of RK online? - https://www.gov.uk/sold-bought-vehicle/y/yes/sold-...
Sending bits of paper to Swansea is always risky given the known ability of DVLA to lose mail internally.

They only know there is a problem if/when you complain!
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/8066/respon...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

frankenstein12 said:

November 2016 Car was clamped for No road tax.
Contacted DVLA who stated they cancelled/stopped taking the Direct debit end of July 2016 as car not registered.

Do you never check your bank statements?

Not often no i am one of those reckless people who doesn't go through their account every month to make sure that every single payment that was meant to go out actually did.Instead I rely on a policy of making sure there is more than enough money in my account that any payment that goes out or may go out will be comfortably covered.

Don't get me wrong, the DVLA is a totally unaccountable Agency which needs root and branch reform.
Unfortunately this requires a Secretary of State for Transport who is willing to bring it about.
As the post is a revolving door very few SoS ever stay long enough to do so and none have cojones anyway.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Thursday 26th January 22:09

Edited by frankenstein12 on Thursday 26th January 22:10

Edited by frankenstein12 on Thursday 26th January 22:12

[frankenstein12]

Sheepshanks said:

frankenstein12 said:

Bought from a trade auction so yes. DVLA have the car on their system as "in trade" according to a woman i spoke to today.

I didn't think you can tax a car that's "in trade"?

When you registered in your name you should have re-taxed it then, although they seem to have lost your request to put it in your name anyway. As others have said, you really ought to look out for these docs coming back - make a note in 'phone / diary. Or do it online - far easier and more reliable.

On this point I cannot disagree at all. As said however the root cause of this is the fact they have TWICE lost my registration documents. Its hero level idiocy.

Stupidly I thought doing my tax online and by direct debit was the smart thing to do as I assumed if they cancelled it they would notify me. Stupid me.

[frankenstein12]

Red Devil said:

I very seldom allow others' responses to irritate me enough to feel the need to be forthright but, congratulations, you have succeeded.

Your first one answers your own question. Pay the OCS (out of court settlement) and stop wasting everbody's time.
The next fails to address my point. Anybody who trades cars should be well aware that any change of RK automatically cancels any current VED.
Furthermore, if DVLA are notified that the car is 'in trade' (by the completed yellow V5C/3) it automatically becomes no longer taxed. So that one doesn't wash either.
Previous RK gets refunded any unexpired months VED. See this thread - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=145...
The one after that also doesn't cut it. Either you are in business as a trader or you're not. The amount of time you spend doing it is irrelevant.
http://www.motor-trade-insurances.co.uk/Motor-Trad...
http://www.tradex.com/motor-trade-insurance/car-de...
You might want to read this thread as well - http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... (n.b. the VED rules have changed since then).
The bad memory excuse is pretty pathetic. Would you have also used it as an excuse for failing to submit a return and paying tax on your business profits?
The 'no reason' turns out to be wrong too, as you have just found out. What else might you have missed?
You would only have needed to check one month's transactions to discover the DD was missing so I don't buy that excuse either.

The DVLA has many failings and it can be a high handed and intransigent organisation. That said, you haven't exactly helped yourself due to a lack of understanding and personal choices.
Whatever sympathy I may have had for your situation has evaporated.

Btw, if you chop and change your cars frequently you might find this useful in future - https://www.gov.uk/get-vehicle-information-from-dv...

frankenstein12 said:

Red Devil said:

frankenstein12 said:

Any ideas on how I deal with this?

1. Pay them.
2. "See you in court" Put simply given the nature of my day to day work even if I wanted to that's not an option
If 2, what will your defence strategy be?

frankenstein12 said:

Car was sat in off road courtyard unused and was taxed via monthly direct debit and insured on trade policy.

So you're in the motor trade. You should surely know the rules better than an ordinary MoP. The above is as I understand it not relevant.The car was taxed and insured and it was also kept off the public highway until I sent off to put the car in my name.
The car was registered as in trade on their system whilst sat in my yard.

The DVLA cancelled the road tax 4 months after I sent the new keepers paperwork to them.
I was also not a full time trader. I have a normal day job and had a trade policy as I chop and change cars quite often due to doing high mileage and was going to try my hand at buying and selling a few alongside my day job but decided its not worth it.

frankenstein12 said:

March 2016 Put New Mot on car and sent off new keeper supplement to put car in my name and started using car as my daily.

Did it not strike you as odd that you did not receive a new V5C at any point during the next 6 months? I would have had I realised I had not received it and I would have promptly followed it up unfortunately as I have already said I have a very bad memory and don't exactly go through all my cars documents on a regular basis for no reason.

Also, why oh why didn't you do the change of RK online? - https://www.gov.uk/sold-bought-vehicle/y/yes/sold-...
Sending bits of paper to Swansea is always risky given the known ability of DVLA to lose mail internally.

They only know there is a problem if/when you complain!
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/8066/respon...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...

frankenstein12 said:

November 2016 Car was clamped for No road tax.
Contacted DVLA who stated they cancelled/stopped taking the Direct debit end of July 2016 as car not registered.

Do you never check your bank statements?

Not often no i am one of those reckless people who doesn't go through their account every month to make sure that every single payment that was meant to go out actually did.Instead I rely on a policy of making sure there is more than enough money in my account that any payment that goes out or may go out will be comfortably covered.

Don't get me wrong, the DVLA is a totally unaccountable Agency which needs root and branch reform.
Unfortunately this requires a Secretary of State for Transport who is willing to bring it about.
As the post is a revolving door very few SoS ever stay long enough to do so and none have cojones anyway.

You miss the fact the car had been taxed in my personal name since mid 2015 by monthly direct debit even though it was registered "in trade" with DVLA. That had not changed. The reason the Tax was cancelled was NOT because of change of keeper but because there was NO registered keeper. They cancelled the Tax 4-5 months after I originally sent off for new keeper documents which they lost.


As to wasting everyone time thanks you need not reply any further if it bothers you so.

My request is what to do about the letter and how to reply to appeal the penalty. Yes I know I have said I don't expect to win but I would like to go through the process correctly so that when they refuse and I am forced to pay I can then take them to court to try recover my money.

[frankenstein12]

TooMany2cvs said:

The latest on this is in another thread...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Thanks 2cvs. Other thread is simply about getting answers to questions about small claims to try work out whether I can risk taking them to court.

[frankenstein12]

TooMany2cvs said:

frankenstein12 said:

Other thread is simply about getting answers to questions about small claims to try work out whether I can risk taking them to court.

Short version of my answer in that thread: You have nothing to take them to court for.

You are entitled to that opinion. I disagree as they failed to notify me that they were cancelling my road tax. Cancelling someone's road tax without notifying them then punishing them for not having road tax is fundamentally wrong.