Solicitor to sue an Audi dealer
Discussion
I'm in dispute with an Audi dealership who are hell bent on trying to avoid their legal, contractual and moral obligations. I have now decided I will probably sue them for problems resulting from bad advice and workmanship. Anyone know a litigation solicitor who actually knows something about car mechanics? If they understand it will save a lot of time!
Thanks
Thanks
Litigation is an emotional and time consuming path and I have better things to do on both counts. HOWEVER, I have been very calm and reasonable and they haven't made a proper effort to resolve it so they have pissed me off. The claim will now be in excess of £5000 but less than £10,000. The scope of my original claim was scaled down to make it easier to settle but as they don't want to pay anything or do any rectification works I plan to include all the works, time, car hire, travel, and anything else legitimate.
I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
The previous owner had died and his wife was moving abroad so needed to sell. I was interested in buying but needed to get a handle on a gearbox fault warning light. She took the car into Audi to have it investigated. They did a diagnostic and vehicle health check.
Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
Very easy to run up fees fast. I'm usually pretty pragmatic but in this case I feel there is a principle. Maybe I won't win but i'm prepared to spend some money if I have to and take the chance. They probably think its quite an old Audi and if that's all he can afford to buy he wont pursue it. They are wrong.
Based on all that please dont bother to try to take them to court, firstly as you didnt pay for the pre sale inspection you dont have any form of contract with them but secondly its an old performance car that can be expensive when they go wrong. And they do go wrong.
Our messages crossed. My main car is a sports car, a lot nicer and more expensive. I bought the audi to run it for 2 years as its an estate and I sometimes need that for work at the moment. I had a big Honda for lugging stuff around but that was written off after some ***ker cut the cat from underneath. The audi was meant to be the replacement
The audi is actually a much nicer car than I expected and having first driven it was thinking i might keep it longer
Our messages crossed. My main car is a sports car, a lot nicer and more expensive. I bought the audi to run it for 2 years as its an estate and I sometimes need that for work at the moment. I had a big Honda for lugging stuff around but that was written off after some ***ker cut the cat from underneath. The audi was meant to be the replacement
The audi is actually a much nicer car than I expected and having first driven it was thinking i might keep it longer
Hammersia said:
It's still called the small claims procedure.
If you're getting nowhere then just go to money claims online and file a claim, fees scale according to value of the claim but should be around £100. Keep it factual as per your description above. Nothing to lose imho.
I agree but think i need a bit of advice beforehand filling the claimIf you're getting nowhere then just go to money claims online and file a claim, fees scale according to value of the claim but should be around £100. Keep it factual as per your description above. Nothing to lose imho.
silentbrown said:
Two hopes, etc...
There's a mahoosive and long-running thread here on B8 S4's. Great cars (Mine's coming up to it's 9th birthday this year) - but the DSG box on early cars is a weak spot, and regular DSG oil changes are essential (every 35-40K - and they're NOT automatically done).
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Sorry, but buying a 2009 S4 with a known gearbox fault is monumentally rash.
The car was well maintained with a full main dealer service history from new with everything they ever said needed doing having been done. When you tell the dealer you are considering buying the car and wanting to reassure yourself that what they have said in their report will fix the gearbox and they say yes it will, I don't think it unreasonable to rely on that. Buying it without speaking to the garage would have been rash. There's a mahoosive and long-running thread here on B8 S4's. Great cars (Mine's coming up to it's 9th birthday this year) - but the DSG box on early cars is a weak spot, and regular DSG oil changes are essential (every 35-40K - and they're NOT automatically done).
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Sorry, but buying a 2009 S4 with a known gearbox fault is monumentally rash.
Edited by silentbrown on Monday 5th February 17:51
When they did the original report they were told the car was being sold and they were to report on what work needed doing.
I consider they had a duty of care and that is the main basis I shall claim on. The other basis is poor quality work. Some that failed inside the warranty period and some outside.
Tony_T said:
Is it definitely a 'G626' sensor? As that doesn't seem to throw up any results online.
Edit: Looks like its G676.
This lot are very well regarded for gearbox repairs
https://milta.co/
Sorry - yes it's the G676 sensor. Edit: Looks like its G676.
This lot are very well regarded for gearbox repairs
https://milta.co/
Edited by Tony_T on Tuesday 6th February 05:27
Edited by Tony_T on Tuesday 6th February 05:36
Thanks for the suggestion about Milta. After many phone calls I had found someone very competent who wasn't crazy money but i'll certainly give Milta a call to see what they would charge.
Austin_Metro said:
Thank you! Part of my degree decades ago was contract/tort law and the moment I saw Hedley Byrne v Heller a bulb went on! I had forgotten the details but i'm glad to see it affirms what I have been saying.
Certainly all of my professional career I have worked on the basis that if I am giving any advice to someone, friend or client, paid or not, then I need to be careful because people may rely on that advice I therefore have a liability.
Edited by davidcw58 on Tuesday 6th February 07:55
Forester1965 said:
Somebody kind might want to give Milta a heads up. Not sure I'd want to work on something for someone highly litigious over principles.
What a stupid comment. I am not highly litigious. My claim is perfectly valid and I have tried hard to sort it out with the garage. It is their refusal to accept any responsibility that has p**sed me off. The senior person at the dealership I am now dealing with has only been in the job a few weeks though so maybe has to demonstrate he's a tough cookie davidcw58 said:
I'm in dispute with an Audi dealership who are hell bent on trying to avoid their legal, contractual and moral obligations. I have now decided I will probably sue them for problems resulting from bad advice and workmanship. Anyone know a litigation solicitor who actually knows something about car mechanics? If they understand it will save a lot of time!
Thanks
Anyway, rather than everyone throwing in their opinions about there being no contract, I shouldn't have bought it, etc, .....all of which I know but aren't relevant, the posting was asking for the name of a solicitor. That would be more helpful..........Thanks
Forester1965 said:
You're going to have to argue that a second hand conversation via a receptionist meant Audi accepted a duty of care in advising you whether it was safe to buy the Audi. You'll also have to argue that simultaneously they had a contractual obligation to the seller, and that their duty of care to you (for free) via said receptionist tittle-tattle, overrrode that contractual, paid duty to seller.
Can't you see a fairly obvious problem with that?
I don't see that the duty to the seller and myself are really different.Can't you see a fairly obvious problem with that?
"Furthermore, if in a sphere in which a person is so placed that others could reasonably rely upon his judgment or his skill or upon his ability to make careful inquiry, a person takes it upon himself to give information or advice to, or allows his information or advice to be passed on to, another person who, as he knows or should know, will place reliance upon it, then a duty of care will arise. " I would hope that covers it. Time will tell.
If I mess up (which has happened twice in my career) then it is my fault and I accept responsibilty for it. I put my hand in my pocket and sort it out. Sadly most others don't do that.
vaud said:
OP
Try these guys: https://www.daslaw.co.uk/personal/how-can-we-help/...
Pay for some initial advice. Of course it's in their interest to sell you more but they might guide you towards hope/no hope.
I'll give them a call.Try these guys: https://www.daslaw.co.uk/personal/how-can-we-help/...
Pay for some initial advice. Of course it's in their interest to sell you more but they might guide you towards hope/no hope.
What I was really hoping for was a solicitor who picks up a spanner occasionally and has half a clue about car mechanics, hence my post on here. Maybe i'd have been better on one of the classic car forums.
Some Gump said:
Interesting thread.
Man looks at expensive but leggy car presumably going cheap but with a fault. Said cheap car has backstory of woe which may explain it's cheapness.
man asks seller to ask a garage who then says it's not that bad. Man is happy with taking this as risk mitigation on the old risk / reward decision.
Man decides to grab said bargain.
Learns it wasn't as bargimous as he thought, because it costs a lot to fix.
Decides to sue, asks for advice.
All advice is to not sue, no leg to stand on.
Man decides this is why all social media is bad.
There are so many errors in your assessment it is laughable. Starting with 'asks for advice'. and ending with 'decides all social media is bad' This experience has reminded me why I avoid social media! Read the OP where i asked for a solicitor suggestion and "This experience has reminded me why I avoid social media!" Not remotely the same as all social media is badMan looks at expensive but leggy car presumably going cheap but with a fault. Said cheap car has backstory of woe which may explain it's cheapness.
man asks seller to ask a garage who then says it's not that bad. Man is happy with taking this as risk mitigation on the old risk / reward decision.
Man decides to grab said bargain.
Learns it wasn't as bargimous as he thought, because it costs a lot to fix.
Decides to sue, asks for advice.
All advice is to not sue, no leg to stand on.
Man decides this is why all social media is bad.
You have just demonstrated exactly why I avoid social media. Too many people who cant read and state their misguided thinking as fact
Edited by davidcw58 on Tuesday 6th February 10:08
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