Inside a Camera Van
Discussion
This morning whilst at work, I was driving down a section of 40mph limit dual carriageway which has recently had two Gatso speed
Cameras installed, one in either direction now insitu for about 3 months. 400 meters past one of the Gatso Cameras was a Safety partnership camera van. It was clearly visible from well before the Gatso site if you were looking ahead far enough and the rear of the van was painted in the yellow and orange chevrons that adorn marked Police vehicles.
I decided to stop and ask questions of the operator in the back of the van. He was a civilian employee and was very forthcoming with information. It was raining hard at the time and the traffic was reasonably busy.
The camera itself was attached to an LTI20/20 laser device. The camera is connected to a VHS video recorder which is recording continually, all traffic going past the rear of the van. The operator although civilian was alone and no Police officer was present, apart from me.
I asked the following questions.
"I understood that only a Police officer has the capability of assessing speed and having it corroborated by a second device."
Reply "I think that has recently changed to allow civilians to take on the work alone"
"What is the threshold that you are told to put into the device where tickets are then issued."
Reply "10% plus 4mph, which takes it to 48mph for a ticket"
"Can the laser be interupted by other technology around, i.e. electrical disturbance or laser jammers in cars?"
reply " If the laser fails to lock on, then I release the trigger and fire it again until I get a reading. There are 9 error codes which come up on the system if it fails to lock on, I have never had one tell me its been jammed."
"How far away can you capture the offending vehicle?"
Reply " It depends on the lens fitted to the camera. The one I am using today is a 30mm lens and will record the registration number at about 250 to 300 meters. A 50mm lens will capture at over 500 to 800 meters. We also have a device to cut out glare caused by someone having their headlamps on full beam."
" How long have you been here this morning and how many have you captured?"
reply, "I have been here for about 1 1/2 hours and have activated the laser 130 times. Over that period I imagine I will have recorded about 80 vehicles exceeding the threshold speed. I am surprised myself as I was here yesterday at the same time and captured about the same number, why do people not learn?"
Whilst I was sat in the van for about 20 minutes or so, I witnessed several vehicles not only activate the Gatso camera behind the van, some of speed in excess of 60mph but fail to reduce speed on passing the Camera van.
The camera was being activated from within the van with the doors shut, the small rear window on one of the rear doors was hinged at the bottom and dropped backwards into the van, allowing the laser and camera lens unobstructed view to its target.
The laser had to be targetted on individual cars which appeared to be travelling too fast and the vehicle concerned individually shot by the operator. The video machine was capable of printing out an instant still photgraph taken from the videotape as the laser was activated.
Vehicles travelling in the opposite direction were also in the frame of the laser target and were captured travelling away from the camera van. The speed on the photo was preceded by a minus sign to signify it was a shot up the backside.
Motorcyles were not devoid of attention. When two operators are in the van, if a motor cycle is captured approaching the camera van from behind it, the second operator records the registration as it passes and writes out a statement form as notes at the time of the offending registration number. Motorcycles travelling on the opposite carriageway were captured as easily as other vehicles.
There is no policy in this force of sitting on top of motorway bridges to capture traffic on the motorway carriageway. During the lighter evenings this summer, with the use of the device to reduce glare from headlights, the vans will be used into the late evening and not just until 1800.
To be honest, I was astounded at the number of vehicles that came through this camera site, not only the mobile one but many activating the Gatso 400 meters prior to the camera van at well in excess of the limit. This area is well publicised for being a prime spot for enforcement, not only from the camera van but also by Traffic Police officers with hand held laser devices at all times of the day and night.
It has also been the venue for several fatalities and lots of serious injury accidents.
My conclusions were that many of the people captured on the camera in the time I was in the van were probably local traffic knowing about the dangers of the road and its speed (van) hazards. It was raining hard and visibility was reasonable but not good (good enough for me to see the van before I passed the Gatso camera 400 meters away)
Most of those caught this morning by that van must have been driving with their thumbs up their ar5e (especailly those that were captured by the Gatso prior to the camera van
).
What does it take to get people to understand that if they continue to exceed the limits in areas that are regular and well publicised speed enforcement areas, they will be processed and £60 or more removed from their wallets?
Sheep? Baaaaaaaaaaaa
For the information of Toad-oftoadhall, the two offences are looked upon as one in this force. In fact the operator told me that he had placed a dummy unit in the Gatso so that it appeared to capture drivers but no camera was installed, only the flash.
>>> Edited by madcop on Wednesday 4th June 20:03
Cameras installed, one in either direction now insitu for about 3 months. 400 meters past one of the Gatso Cameras was a Safety partnership camera van. It was clearly visible from well before the Gatso site if you were looking ahead far enough and the rear of the van was painted in the yellow and orange chevrons that adorn marked Police vehicles.
I decided to stop and ask questions of the operator in the back of the van. He was a civilian employee and was very forthcoming with information. It was raining hard at the time and the traffic was reasonably busy.
The camera itself was attached to an LTI20/20 laser device. The camera is connected to a VHS video recorder which is recording continually, all traffic going past the rear of the van. The operator although civilian was alone and no Police officer was present, apart from me.
I asked the following questions.
"I understood that only a Police officer has the capability of assessing speed and having it corroborated by a second device."
Reply "I think that has recently changed to allow civilians to take on the work alone"
"What is the threshold that you are told to put into the device where tickets are then issued."
Reply "10% plus 4mph, which takes it to 48mph for a ticket"
"Can the laser be interupted by other technology around, i.e. electrical disturbance or laser jammers in cars?"
reply " If the laser fails to lock on, then I release the trigger and fire it again until I get a reading. There are 9 error codes which come up on the system if it fails to lock on, I have never had one tell me its been jammed."
"How far away can you capture the offending vehicle?"
Reply " It depends on the lens fitted to the camera. The one I am using today is a 30mm lens and will record the registration number at about 250 to 300 meters. A 50mm lens will capture at over 500 to 800 meters. We also have a device to cut out glare caused by someone having their headlamps on full beam."
" How long have you been here this morning and how many have you captured?"
reply, "I have been here for about 1 1/2 hours and have activated the laser 130 times. Over that period I imagine I will have recorded about 80 vehicles exceeding the threshold speed. I am surprised myself as I was here yesterday at the same time and captured about the same number, why do people not learn?"
Whilst I was sat in the van for about 20 minutes or so, I witnessed several vehicles not only activate the Gatso camera behind the van, some of speed in excess of 60mph but fail to reduce speed on passing the Camera van.
The camera was being activated from within the van with the doors shut, the small rear window on one of the rear doors was hinged at the bottom and dropped backwards into the van, allowing the laser and camera lens unobstructed view to its target.
The laser had to be targetted on individual cars which appeared to be travelling too fast and the vehicle concerned individually shot by the operator. The video machine was capable of printing out an instant still photgraph taken from the videotape as the laser was activated.
Vehicles travelling in the opposite direction were also in the frame of the laser target and were captured travelling away from the camera van. The speed on the photo was preceded by a minus sign to signify it was a shot up the backside.
Motorcyles were not devoid of attention. When two operators are in the van, if a motor cycle is captured approaching the camera van from behind it, the second operator records the registration as it passes and writes out a statement form as notes at the time of the offending registration number. Motorcycles travelling on the opposite carriageway were captured as easily as other vehicles.
There is no policy in this force of sitting on top of motorway bridges to capture traffic on the motorway carriageway. During the lighter evenings this summer, with the use of the device to reduce glare from headlights, the vans will be used into the late evening and not just until 1800.
To be honest, I was astounded at the number of vehicles that came through this camera site, not only the mobile one but many activating the Gatso 400 meters prior to the camera van at well in excess of the limit. This area is well publicised for being a prime spot for enforcement, not only from the camera van but also by Traffic Police officers with hand held laser devices at all times of the day and night.
It has also been the venue for several fatalities and lots of serious injury accidents.
My conclusions were that many of the people captured on the camera in the time I was in the van were probably local traffic knowing about the dangers of the road and its speed (van) hazards. It was raining hard and visibility was reasonable but not good (good enough for me to see the van before I passed the Gatso camera 400 meters away)
Most of those caught this morning by that van must have been driving with their thumbs up their ar5e (especailly those that were captured by the Gatso prior to the camera van
). What does it take to get people to understand that if they continue to exceed the limits in areas that are regular and well publicised speed enforcement areas, they will be processed and £60 or more removed from their wallets?
Sheep? Baaaaaaaaaaaa
For the information of Toad-oftoadhall, the two offences are looked upon as one in this force. In fact the operator told me that he had placed a dummy unit in the Gatso so that it appeared to capture drivers but no camera was installed, only the flash.
>>> Edited by madcop on Wednesday 4th June 20:03
CarZee said:
He said the 50mm lens has a range of 500-800mtrs. I don't care who you are and what training you've had, how the fark are you supposed to spot the thing at that sort of distance. I think even 400mtrs is pushing it unless the road in front of you is clear of cars and other hazards, allowing you to gaze upon the middle distance rather than background processing it as you attend to more immediate dangers.
Carzee, we need to get together and polish the condensation from your glasses
I saw it well in advance as I was looking as far up the road as I could. The road has a very slight left hand curve but visibility is possible for well in advance of the camera vans position.
Seriously though, there are not many places that a camera van could site itself on the side of a dual carriageway or single laned road and capture at 800 meters. This would normally be used on bridges over dual carriageways or motorways and would be positioned out of one of the side windows, not allowing the observation of the chevrons to be seen.
The majority of those that I saw captured this morning were done so at between 150 and 200 meters from the van. If you cannot see it before then and realise what is happeneing, then maybe an eyesight test is appropriate with the NIP
mybrainhurts said: Thanks, MC, that was very interesting.
"It was raining hard and visibility was reasonable but not good (good enough for me to see the van before I passed the Gatso camera 400 meters away)"
Did you see the photos? Is the quality good in poor visibility?
Same question for the long lens?
Yes I did see the photos. In fact he took one of me on my passage towards him at 38 mph. It was captured at 200 meters and was very clear although it was raining.
I was not particularly recognisable in the photo but he explained that when the video tape is taken into the FPT office, the equipment used to print the photo gives a much better resolution than the one in the van.
My Police vehicle was marked and I parked it directly in front of the camera van. I could not be seen from the rear until fairly close but could be clearly seen by traffic from the other direction on the other carraigeway. I can only assume that those caught on the other carriageway must have been thinking that the camera van only targets vehicles that approach it from the rear and not the opposite direction. This is in fact wrong.
The operator told me that there are over 300 fixed camera sites in this force and only 30 cameras to place in them. That is why dummy units are installed which just activate the flash.
The operator told me that all they were interested in doing was slowing people down in built up areas. He is not on any performance target and would prefer it if everybody did not pass his van at in excess of the permitted limit for that area.
He also told me that he has only had a couple of instances where drivers have stopped and confronted him about what he is doing. He is supplied with a Police radio in case of trouble but has never had to use it.
He stated that occasionally when a builder type van with several occupants passes, he will get called a "wank3r" but that is no problem, because generally, he has that persons photograph within the video tape and thinks to himself "Who is the wank3r now then, if you couldn't see this van from that distance haha"
He stated that in forces that are in the capping off scheme, the vehicles used for mobile camera sites should be highly conspicuous with their markings.
This however is not a necessity. Those forces that are not in the capping off scheme do not bother to mark up the backs of the vans they use.
The operator told me that there are over 300 fixed camera sites in this force and only 30 cameras to place in them. That is why dummy units are installed which just activate the flash.
The operator told me that all they were interested in doing was slowing people down in built up areas. He is not on any performance target and would prefer it if everybody did not pass his van at in excess of the permitted limit for that area.
He also told me that he has only had a couple of instances where drivers have stopped and confronted him about what he is doing. He is supplied with a Police radio in case of trouble but has never had to use it.
He stated that occasionally when a builder type van with several occupants passes, he will get called a "wank3r" but that is no problem, because generally, he has that persons photograph within the video tape and thinks to himself "Who is the wank3r now then, if you couldn't see this van from that distance haha"
He stated that in forces that are in the capping off scheme, the vehicles used for mobile camera sites should be highly conspicuous with their markings.
This however is not a necessity. Those forces that are not in the capping off scheme do not bother to mark up the backs of the vans they use.
toad_oftoadhall said:
chrisgr31 said: The van doors are kept shut, therefore the rear livery can be seen. Therefore there is little excuse for not seeing the van as you drive towards it!
Yes but people assume i fthey see a marked police *van* in a layby it's searching for evidence of somehting...
...until you get close enought to see the scamera...
...'Searching for evidence of something'
: 
Speed maybe? 
profiler said: Did you ask the guy how many drunk, drugged, uninsured drivers he'd caught that day. How many vehicles passed unhindered with defective tyres, no MOT, etc...
And what woulfd the point of that have been?
It is not his job to deal with such offences or offenders. He is employed to reduce the problem which nationally damages more people than other offences if offenders are unlucky whilst committing it. there is no doubt that to hit something hard causes more damage than to hit it softly. It is a fact of Physics, something to do with Newtons laws of motion if I remember correctly
I accept that other offences such as the ones you are suggesting are serious and they are being targetted especially with the use of ANPR for insurance linked into the national insurance database and targetted patrols for known drink drivers/areas of prevalent behaviour.
Tyres and other vehicle defects require vehicles to be slowed considerably or in fact even stopped for examination. This leads to large traffic build up and those that are aware of and guilty of such offences and the checks often turn off before they get through them. They also require lots of staff to facilitate the checks and deal with offences found.
Dealing with a defective tyre requires measuring the particular defect and obtaining the serial numbers and other relevant information relating to the make and size of the tyre. It can take a good few minutes to sort out properly.
To do regular checks for vehicle defects would soon have large numbers of motorists complaining about the amount of time they had to spend in a traffic queue.
Still at least they would not be committing an offence of excess speed in the process
andytk said:
I thought they weren't allowed to operate lasers in the rain due to false reading from laser reflection/refraction from raindrops.
Whether or not they're allowed to I guess in this instance people were getting tickets in the rain.
There is no reason according to the operator to not use the device in the rain. The weather conditions are noted down on the log sheet the operator fills in when he sets the van up. they are also added to the pro-forma statement that he fills in if he is required to support the video evidence for a court hearing.
Rain would appear not to compromise the device. The rain could be clearly seen o the video monitor attached to the laser device.
If I recall correctly they don't use lasers on the continent when its raining. Maybe JMSG can back me up here.
That may well be the case, but not apparently in this country.
Not that I'd be speeding if its wet, my cars wet weather handling is attrocious. I was caught in a rainstorm last night on the motorway and I think its the first time I've ever driven along that stretch of road under the speed limit. It was that bad.
Andy
Very sensible.
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