Caterham newbie / another 'which 7?' thread

[Pete247]

Hello all,

Caterham newbie here! I have recently decided to start looking for my very first seven so I thought I would introduce myself and also get some advice as to what to go for as my first seven. I know there are probably tons of 'Which 7 to buy' threads out there so forgive me for starting another, but as there is a whole plethora of engines/models/specifications, and it represents quite a big financial decision for me, I wanted to actually engage in some conversation and get some specific/tailored advice.

I had never really looked into Caterhams until the last couple of months, other than outside knowledge and watching them on top gear etc. When I first made the decision to get one, I thought I'll save about £10k and get a nice second hand one. I soon realised for that money your looking at modest power and/or 20+ years old. So I though, ok let's see how much I'd need for a seven that I wouldn't mind owning, say 5-15 years old, not too many miles and moderate power (140-180bhp) and I realised that I'd need between £15-20k! 'Jesus!' I said to myself. Just out of curiosity I thought I'd have a peak at new ones. To my delight I saw you could get entry level Roadsport kit for a meagre £20k. Great, it's decided then! I'm now getting a new kit and building it myself!! It didn't take long, however, after doing some research into specifications etc, that I have gone from a £20k Roadsport to wanting a Supersport R as my ultimate dream car. With the desired extras I'm looking at a not-so-modest £28k! However, I'd be looking at least 18months to save the necessary funds, more realistically 2 years. Initially I thought I could do that no probs. Then it dawned on me....I've just made a huge sacrifice in selling my Clio, lost all my dignity in driving round in a Swift and all for no immediate reward. All of a sudden I could not live with the prospect of driving around in a Swift for 2 years with no toy to play with to make up for it. So, after all that I have now come back to the idea of getting a second hand seven with a budget of £15k. I keep reading how well sevens hold their value so I see this as almost an investment, getting on the 'Caterham ladder' so to speak in almost exactly the same way as you have to get a pokey 1 bed house before buying your 4 bed family home. This route just seems to make more sense! If you think I am doing the right thing then please let me know?

Anyway, (for those of you still reading - sorry for the ramble) thanks for your time and I'd appreciate any comments you may have before I start talking about what to buy with my £15k

Pete

Edited by Smiffy7 on Thursday 13th March 07:57

Edited by Smiffy7 on Wednesday 19th March 07:58

[Pete247]

Thank you to all for the above comments.

I know some of you mentioned about hiring a caterham, well I have already made enquiries with Caterham South to do just this. The only problem was they didn't like the speeding points I acquired in 2010, and despite me pleading that they were all over 3 years old they couldn't accept it! I was quite disappointed as I was really looking forward to it and trying one out finally. Do you think I will be able to arrange several test drives of various cars with them instead??

Looking to which seven to buy, I totally appreciate the near unanimous advice along the lines of 'you don't need a lot of power to have fun', and I don't for one minute doubt the truth of the statement. However, if I was to get a seven with less than 140bhp, I'm fairly certain that after my first track day I'll wish I had more. I'm planning to keep my first seven for 3-5 years, so I think 140bhp will my preferred starting point. Off course I'll reserve the right to change my mind until I actually drive one!

So it would appear that on a budget of £15k I could be looking at a Caterham in one of 3 broad categories:
1) <140bhp, 5-10years old, <15,000miles, mostly 1.4-1.6 K-series (not seen any sigmas at this price)
2) 140-165bhp, 10-20years old, <20,000miles, mostly 1.6-1.8 K-series
3) 165-200+bhp, 15-25years old, up to 20,000+miles, 2.0 Vauxhall or 2.0 Zetec

Which of the above will likely hold most of its value in 3-5years time?

The other area which is really confusing for anyone new to Caterhams is the knowing the exact difference between spec models! For the current crop available you can view all the specs on the Caterham website, so I know the current Roadsport, Supersport & R400/500 inside out. Can anyone shed any light of the older generation of models/specs? I read on a K-series guide on Pistonheads that they put the engine in the following Caterhams:
- Classic
- Supersport
- Roadsport
- Sprint
- Superlight (+ R)
- VVC
- Clubsport
- Autosport
- Tracksport
....just a few then! Again, any of the above models likely to hold more value?

Regarding buying from private vs trade, are there any pros/cons other than the obvious for buying any other car, e.g. price?

Thanks again

[Pete247]

Thanks framerateuk for the advice, so low mileage is not always best in a Caterham! I see the logic in that.

Grubbster said:

True there are many variants of the 7 out there but the specs are quite blurred as people take options and modify them a fair bit. For example my car would be listed as a 'Roadsport 140' but it now has 230bhp, LSD, big brakes, nitrons, lots of carbon etc so hard to compare. But there is certainly more interest in particular models - Superlights and R's tend to hold their value well and for you I think a Superlight R300 (K series) would make an excellent first 7 if you can find a nice one within budget. A lively 160 bhp, 6 speed box, maybe with LSD (this was optional) is probably one of the best all rounders in my opinion. The slightly older Superlight R has quite a bit more power (190) and again is a very popular choice. Don't discount the lower powered Superlght (K series 133) as with a 6 speed box, aeroscreen it still goes very nicely and easy to sell on (should you want to trade up to something more powerful after a year or 2)

You'll probably struggle to find either of these in budget so a K series Roadsport might be more likely, but if you can find one that's been sensibly upgraded you'll get more car for the money. I reckon you could find a sweet K series Roadsport 1.6 for a chunk under budget, then have a couple of thousand to fund a sensible engine upgrade (to 140-150 ish). This would probably mean living with a 5 speed box but to be honest that's not the end of the world.

Big power Vauxhalls probably make excellent value but I've no experience personally. You could get an ex-academy sigma 1.6 for the money (I just sold mine within your budget), but by the sound of it you'd soon want a bit more oomph. They are great value cars but pretty minimal spec.

Finally as others have said - seat time and instruction will make the biggest difference, I've seen well pedalled low powered 7's lap circuits quicker than some people manage in their R400's/500's.

Thanks for the suggestions. The Thought of an older R300 leaves me salivating, but like you say price is an issue - I've not seen a superlight for under £17.5k.

Although I would be doing most miles on the road I would like to try and do 2-3 track days per year, just to give you an idea of the level of 'track spec' I'd be looking for. But essentially my choice spec will include:
Lower floor
Q/R steering wheel
Harnesses
FIA roll bar
Wide track
Adjustable suspension
LSD
Heater
Weather gear
Which of the above are the more easier 'add ons' and which are more economical just to have on the car from the beginning? In other words, which should I be more concerned about being on the car when buying it?


What are peoples thoughts on ex academy cars? The more I look the more I like this...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
£3k under budget which would leave enough to get a decent upgrade later on. I see you can tune to a 1.6K to 155bhp for £2.5k fitted. Apart from a heater (and power) this seems to tick all the boxes! The advert specifies:
- 3.92 open differential
- Apollo tank for extra oil capacity
- Bilstein M1 race dampers
What is the technical significance of the above item over 'stock' items? Other than the obvious extra oil and firmer dampers answers, rather what difference does it make to living with/driving the car?

Edited by Pete247 on Monday 10th March 13:07

[Pete247]

BertBert said:

I'm a big fan of relatively small horsepower caterhams. They are just brilliant. It was how it was meant to be. All this R6whatever is just crazy talk.

I hadn't driven a 7 for a couple of years and drove a 120bhp ex academy car that had been wide-tracked at the front and a 6 speed box put in. What a fantastic car! Utterly brilliant. You don't even need the widetrack and 6 speeds (although I love the 6 speeder).

Look at this http://www.blatchat.com/t.asp?id=238492 for 10k. Honestly what's not to like?
Bert

Thanks BertBert, do you know if this is still for sale? Any pics available? Regarding the following spec:
- Adjustable suspension kit (front & rear)
- Race Chassis with Side impact protection and internal bracing system.
- Honeycomb driver-side floor, and fuel tank protection.
Is any/all the above standard on all 'academy' spec cars?

[Pete247]

Helluvaname said:

I'd also really recommend joining the Lotus 7 Club, and getting along to a local meeting. As you said "I wanted to actually engage in some conversation and get some specific/tailored advice" and you'll find some very knowledgeable and experienced owners to discuss ideas with there.

The social side of the L7C is really good as well with quite a lot of events, meets, blats, etc, and you'll probably save your membership fee in insureance discouts - plus as a pre-purchase cost it's worht it's weight in gold!

Thanks! I did try registering to post on the Blatchat forum. Am I right in thinking you need to pay the £50 membership to even just post on the forum?

[Pete247]

ghibbett said:

Gotta admit, on paper that looks a real winner. I cannot imagine you'd lose any money on that at all. Engine can be DVA'd and the diff, whilst not being an LSD, is at least a 3.92 so will certainly improve acceleration. For £12k that's a winner in my book.

You've got me all excited now!! So what exactly is the difference between this and a standard Roadsport? You mention the diff, how does this, errrr, differ from the stock item? Also, the Bilstein M1 race dampers, presumably these are uprated from that found on the Roadsport? And the Apollo tank?

Any other difference I should know about?

Is a heater easily retro fitted?

[Pete247]

I am really coming round to the idea of starting with something small and basic like this green/yellow ex academy car, with some of my favoured choice spec items, then using the change from my budget to do an engine upgrade to around the 150bhp mark. I think this will serve me well for 4-5 years before upgrading to a 2.0 duratec down the line.

This is one avenue to go down, but as I previously mentioned, I could also look into older larger engine sevens. If it wasn't for the green interior I think I would go and buy this tomorrow:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...

Also sticking with Vauxhall:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
or
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
The second of these I suspect would be a bit of an animal!! And the first one in French Racing Blue seems like outstanding value for money.

Or looking outside the box with a Zetec:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...

With all the above 2.0 options I can't help but feel you would be getting a lot more car for the money. But all are about 10 years older and generally a lot more miles. Does reliability become a factor when you approach older / higher mileage sevens?

Also, are there any other websites worth looking at for used Caterhams other than Pistonheads or Caterham website?

Edited by Pete247 on Monday 10th March 15:28

[Pete247]

framerateuk said:

The 2.0 Vauxhall is quite a heavy engine from what I've read. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but those who own them have said it feels different to other sevens because of the extra weight up front.

I think an ex adacemy car could suit you well, you could sell on for very little loss if you decided you wanted more power eventually. I still don't feel my 140 Supersport needs any more power, and I'm doing about 5 trackdays a year.

How experienced are you with trackdays? I honestly can't recommend starting with a "slower" car enough. You'll learn a lot. I got passed and left standing by an Sigma Academy car at Pembrey recently, with less power than mine and less grippy tyres - the driver made all the difference! There's a great sense of satisfaction catching up to "faster" cars because you've been driving faster on the corners where it matters .

I've done some reading up on the VX engine vs the K and it seems like it's a trade of between reliability vs handling performance - the handling wins for me!

I've done 3-4 track days and Brands and Donny, so not the greatest of experience but enough to leave me wanting more.

I agree with you that the ex academy car will suit me and my requirement, particularly the extra spec found on the one discussed earlier...
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/c...
£12k
PROS:
- Price
- Great spec
CONS:
- No heater
- No hood

I wouldn't know the answer to this having only been looking for Caterhams for a few weeks, but (assuming v.good condition) am I likely to find a better deal than this pop up in the coming months? I have a bit of a compulsive nature when it comes to things I really want and if I am able to get it I don't usually have the patience to wait around for it! If this really is a good value for money deal I'm tempted to go and see it this weekend with the view to buy.

I have seen a couple of others which are equally as tempting, but are more expensive and have different 'CONS' relative to my desired spec....
http://www.sevensandclassics.com/showroom/caterham...
£14.5k
PROS:
- Better exhaust??
- Hood
- Heater
CONS:
- Standard suspension
- Age/mileage
- Price

Or....
http://www.sevensandclassics.com/showroom/coming-s...
£15k
PROS:
- Supersport!
- 135bhp
CONS:
- Cloth seats
- Age

Which of the above 3 cars do people think is the best deal for me?

[Pete247]

Grubbster said:

The Academy car for £12k looks like a good intro to 7's. The 3.9 diff was fitted as standard with the 5 speed box (and the 3.6 with the 6 speed). M1 dampers are a little stiffer than the 'normal' M0, they look the same and being an ex-academy car they will have adjustable height platforms which means you can get the car flat floored (which will be handy on track). It says wide-track, from the picture it looks standard to me but it's not easy to tell and to be honest I wouldn't worry either way to begin with. Apollo tank needed for track use so nice to see that plus the wheels are lighter and nicer than the Minilite style (although they are 15" I think and often 13's are preferred). Tillets, removeable wheel, battery master switch, FIA roll over bar - all good! If it is all up together and mechanically sound then it would serve you well and hardly lose value.

If you wanted to upgrade rather than replace then a bit more power from DVA and a LSD (either 2nd hand or about £1000 new) would be nice in a couple of years - or if you really like the idea of big power then sell the car as it is and move on.

Go get a test drive and if you can take someone who knows what they are looking at with you that would make sense.

Great advice, thank you Grubbster. Probably and obvious question but can I ask what you mean by getting it flat floored? Regarding the wide track, is there a way you can tell the difference with the untrained eye? I'm at Heathrow on Saturday so it would be rude not to swing by for a test drive!!

Did you have any comments on the other two, the BRG Roadsport 130 and Supersport 135? Both are a bit more expensive. Would you say the ex academy is still the better deal? I was thinking about test driving these too but they are the other side of London at Brands. Or I was even thinking about stopping by at Caterham South for some test drives...

[Pete247]

Thanks guys, great point about the footware. My football trainers should be up for the job.

I've been looking at those two for some time and my eye has been on both. They seem a bit overpriced compared to other traders on Pistonhead though, and the mileage the VVC was offputting - im guessing i'll lose a big chunck of cash after 4 years amd 20k miles?

My new no.1 favorite now is the audi green supersport 135 linked above... wonder when it will be 'available'??

[Pete247]

framerateuk said:

I doubt you'd lose too much, but Caterham's prices will always be higher than private. Keep in mind Caterham will give you a short warranty (3 months I believe) too which you'll need to make sure you use to your advantage to get it all perfect.

Whatever you buy, you need to make sure you've got some cash aside as something will almost definitely crop up that will need fixing. My first service ended up costing £450, plus I had to replace a windscreen thanks to some cracks, new rear tyres, so on top of my car I ended up paying about £1700 within about 3 months. I also needed to replace the throttle cable, throttle stop and seat runners. Nothing major, but again they all cost extra over the price of the car!

I suppose the warranty makes the deal a little sweeter. Were any of the above items not covered under the warranty? (assuming you got it from CC) Anyone else had experience with the CC used car warranty? What's covered and what's not?

Buying your first Caterham has got to be one of the hardest things a man can do! I've been set on getting about a dozen different cars already...

[Pete247]

framerateuk said:

Your best bet is to spot what needs to be sorted on the car before you buy and get Caterham to agree to fix them before you collect.

Things can always go wrong, there was one chap on here who bought a K-Series with low mileage and a couple of weeks later it was suffering from head gasket failure (quite common on the K-Series). It's well known how to sort the problem and keep it at bay (I suggest some searching on here/blatchat/google about it!), but it's still quite an expense to sort it.

I suppose thats another advantage of buying from CC. I don't suppose any private owner would agree to put anything right, and im guessing other caterham traders less willing.

I guess a head gasket would be covered by CC warranty?

I'm planning to arrange test drives at lunchtime for serval cars on Saturday. First stop will be the 12k ex academy, followed by a trip to caterham south where I'll look to drive the black/yellow roadsport and the blue VVC plus something more powerfull hopefully. Then if time permits and it's worth the slog a trip to S&C at Brands to see the BRG Roadsport 130 and the green superspot 135. I should have a good idea after all of that! :-)

[Pete247]

Oh by the way is there any classifieds worth looking at other than PH and CC?

[Pete247]

Overwhelming response by the way, thanks to everyone for sharing the knowledge and being so welcoming!

[Pete247]

Right.... so I have spoken to PT Sports Cars, Sevens & Classics and Caterham Cars South for some background and to arrange test drives for Saturday and this is what I found out:

CC
Dominic was not actually around to speak to so left a message to call me back, but I have provisionally arranged to see him late Saturday afternoon. I want to try the black/yellow Roadsport 125 and the blue VVC 150....maybe something else with a bit more punch too just to experience the difference.

PTSC
Spoke to a chap called Ian Payne, very nice guy. So he and his partner come from a Caterham racing background and only really specialise in ex race cars. I'm also informed (by S&C) that unlike CC or S&C, PTSC is not a proper dealership as such and therefore wouldn't offer the same service and warranty, a slight negative. Unfortunately, the green/yellow £12k ex academy will not be available to view this weekend as it has been sent back to the paint shop to have some bits rectified. As I am in the area I will still stop by for a chat and a look around though. Apparently it's had 1 owner who did the Academy season in 2006 before upgrading it to Roadsport A series and competed up until 2010, hence the wide track and uprated dampers. Ian knew of one accident which required substantial repair - a new rear basket. The car has been looked after and maintained by a professional team called Trackcars apparently. When it was retired in 2010 it was these guys who did the work to re-sell as a road car. Work included new panels, re-skin and re-spray, addition of lights/windscreen etc.

S&C
Both the BRG Roadsport 130 and the met. green Supersport 135 sound like serious contenders for me! The RS 130 I have actually seen advertise by the last owner on Blatchat, however S&C have done quite a bit of work to it to get it up to 'showroom standard'. The previous AVO adjustable suspension was very tired and they have replace with all new standard Roadsport suspension and the front wishbones etc generally given a tidy up. It has new tyres all round and a new screen (also comes with interchangeable aeroscreen). Also the previous full roll cage as been swapped with a new FIA roll bar. From the Blatchat advert the owner notes Re. the engine upgrade "Engine has been to DVA, Ported and polished head which was hardness checked and skimmed. VVC Cams, head gasket done, cambelt, blue silicone hoses. 4-1 exhaust without cat (comes with standard exhaust too) exhaust is around 94db. Should be running around 130bhp." Other then that pretty much as advertised.
The SS 135 is indeed a genuine Supersport. Someone suspected previously that it might just have had a SS upgrade due to the minilight wheel and spare wheel, however, I was told the minilights were standard equipment on supersports of this age - can anyone confirm? And the spear wheel I guess was just an optional extra? The reason that it is not available at the moment is because it was found to have some bubbling paintwork to the underside of the side skin so this has been re-skinned and repainted - they are expecting in back this week so fingers crossed I can see/drive at the weekend!
The advantage of getting one from S&C is the 3 month warranty and the fact it will have a full 12k mile service including cam belt.

Anyone else of the opinion now that these 2 cars are a better deal for me than the ex academy?? I think for me the SS 135 is just about edging it, despite the standard cloth seats! (presumably easily upgradable?) It's not just about the extra power, having not competed in 5 seasons of racing has got to count for something?

Edited by Pete247 on Tuesday 11th March 15:40

Edited by Pete247 on Tuesday 11th March 15:40

[Pete247]

Coppice, which VVC do you mean?

Framerateuk, I too like the idea of the aeroscreen for trackdays - must make quite a difference over 70mph. Of course, there is at least one compromise with all 5 of the sevens mentioned (I've accepted the fact that unless you buy new you will rarely find one to your exact liking) and I've read/learnt that condition should always remain king when buying used. I hopefully seeing/driving 4-5 on Saturday so hopefully all this deliberating should be over!! I'm great at making decisions...

SidewaysSi, I also spoke to Callum at S&C and could agree with you more!

[Pete247]

ghibbett said:

ghibbett said:

http://uk.caterhamcars.com/pre-owned/1211-roadspor...

Actually looking again and this could be a bit of a winner:
Under budget
10k miles
Heater
Full weather gear
13"s
Wide track
Tillets
Q/R wheel
Trackday roll bar
Lowered floors

And all purchased from Caterham South. I actually think that looks a bit under-priced, especially as it's being sold by Caterham themselves.

You know what, I think you right (he says, changing his mind for the 28th time!)

I have been a proper geek/anorak tonight and actually wrote a Pros/Cons list of the 5 cars (well I figured my dignity was at rock bottom already driving round in a Swift!), thought it needed to be done as all the cars were beginning to blur into one! Might as well share it here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dmwf2d1dsp4ma1u/Pro-Con%...

As you can see the Black/yellow RS 120 from CC is a clear winner when it comes to the spec on paper, the only CON I could find being 120BHP. This is closely followed by the Green SS 135 from S&C and then the Blue RS VVC 150 from CC.

Would be interesting to hear thoughts on the list, any 'CONS' not worth worrying about?

Edited by Pete247 on Tuesday 11th March 22:20

Edited by Pete247 on Tuesday 11th March 22:21

[Pete247]

culminator said:

Good luck on Sat Pete. I also have been talking to Callum about a Seven I'm interested in. Seems a good guy and would make me want to deal with S&C.

Thanks! Will be a LONG day but very much looking forward to it.

I've bought enough used cars to know the fundamental things to look out for; anyone got any Caterham specific buying advice that I should know before Saturday? I don't know anybody else into Caterhams or kitcars that I can take with me

Edited by Pete247 on Wednesday 12th March 09:43

[Pete247]

coppice said:

The VVC 150 referred to above; it's nice engine- very torquey, almost Duratec like . My previous Seven had a SS K then a VVC and although the SS sounded like a 90s BTCC car (well, ish ) the VVC just pulled and pulled.

Thanks for the input Coppice. This one is currently my 3rd preference - the engine being the main thing keeping it from being 4th or 5th choice. It has high miles, it's the joint oldest, the most expensive and has the least optional extras to my liking.

[Pete247]

kenny.R400 said:

Pete, after speaking to the guys at S&C myself a few months back and knowing their previous history I've a hunch that whatever they have in stock will be of good quality, or I don't think they'd put their name to it.

As for tips, a 7 is easier to appraise than a Porsche or a TVR for instance, there's not an awful lot hidden.

If you find one, and it has a bit of history, it looks clean underneath and in the engine bay........and goes well then it'll be fine I reckon.
It then just comes down to which one you want and to get a good deal on it.

Good luck from me too.

Thanks Kenny. With places like S&C and CC South, is there any room for negotiation and haggling, or is the sticker price generally what they sell for? Or are you better of trying to get extra bits n bobs 'thrown in'?