Raceline duratec dry sump install
Discussion
So first thing I want to do with the car is install a dry sump. Caterham/Raceline sump ordered and delivered today. First problem - no instructions, so hoping people on here with experience of this sump can help out. I'll document the procedure as I go along also.
Firstly, here's what you receive (including optional breather blanking plate):
So my very first question (to make sure I ordered the tank correctly) - are the inlet/outlet to the passenger side of the engine?
I'm assuming I can assemble most of this off-engine, so here's what I've figured out. Easy stuff first - the inlet/outlet (-12 size):
Now the first part I really want someone to veryify - how to install the 2 baffles. In the kit there is a bag of small bolts, simple counting of holes to screws indicates these are for the baffles:
I assume the larger baffle gets laid down first directly onto the sump and the 4 button cap bolts secure it to the sump:
I'm then assuming the 5 little spacers go between the 2 baffles and the remaining 9 socket cap bolts + washers simply bolt it all together, meaning you have sump->large baffle->spacer->small baffle->washer->bolt:
I'd really like confirmation that this is the correct sequence and orientation of baffles, and if anyone can suggest tightening torques (for everything) that would be great?
Firstly, here's what you receive (including optional breather blanking plate):
So my very first question (to make sure I ordered the tank correctly) - are the inlet/outlet to the passenger side of the engine?
I'm assuming I can assemble most of this off-engine, so here's what I've figured out. Easy stuff first - the inlet/outlet (-12 size):
Now the first part I really want someone to veryify - how to install the 2 baffles. In the kit there is a bag of small bolts, simple counting of holes to screws indicates these are for the baffles:
I assume the larger baffle gets laid down first directly onto the sump and the 4 button cap bolts secure it to the sump:
I'm then assuming the 5 little spacers go between the 2 baffles and the remaining 9 socket cap bolts + washers simply bolt it all together, meaning you have sump->large baffle->spacer->small baffle->washer->bolt:
I'd really like confirmation that this is the correct sequence and orientation of baffles, and if anyone can suggest tightening torques (for everything) that would be great?
Edited by GreigM on Monday 16th June 16:14
Next up is a bag with these parts:
Which I assembled some like so:
and I assume they go into this hole in the sump:
to look like this:
I'm assuming this is just an inline filter which can catch crap in the oil before it screws the pump, and it can be removed to be checked/cleaned.
This leaves a small black blanking plug and a small aluminium plug/spacer like so:
Does it go in here? I'm assuming with the threaded part out in order to help removing it? Do I just tap in with a hammer?
Which I assembled some like so:
and I assume they go into this hole in the sump:
to look like this:
I'm assuming this is just an inline filter which can catch crap in the oil before it screws the pump, and it can be removed to be checked/cleaned.
This leaves a small black blanking plug and a small aluminium plug/spacer like so:
Does it go in here? I'm assuming with the threaded part out in order to help removing it? Do I just tap in with a hammer?
If so that leaves the small black blanking plug - I see nowhere on the sump for this, so presume it goes into the engine itself somewhere?
Next up I've got a bag of socket cap bolts, which I assume are the sump bolts themselves:
I'm assuming the 4 silver ones are the outer holes and the gold ones are the inner ones as loosely laid out below?
Again, any idea of tightening torque.
Also, no gasket was supplied - do these need a gasket or is it only RTV?
Next up I've got a bag of socket cap bolts, which I assume are the sump bolts themselves:
I'm assuming the 4 silver ones are the outer holes and the gold ones are the inner ones as loosely laid out below?
Again, any idea of tightening torque.
Also, no gasket was supplied - do these need a gasket or is it only RTV?
Final post for just now, fitting the pump to the sump - I'm assuming I should/can do this before dropping the old sump.
I have the pump itself, which is easy to site on the sump, it seems to be secured from underneath with 3 bolts, but the bag of bits I have left is this:
I'm assuming the 3 socket caps (2 silver, 1 black) are needed here, so guessing at their sizes I've loosely arranged them in these holes, but I would love someone to confirm this is correct:
that leaves me with these parts:
A weird kidney shaped metal thing, 2 screws and 2 collars/spacers - no clue what to do with any of these, can only gues the kidney thing fits on like this:
I have the pump itself, which is easy to site on the sump, it seems to be secured from underneath with 3 bolts, but the bag of bits I have left is this:
I'm assuming the 3 socket caps (2 silver, 1 black) are needed here, so guessing at their sizes I've loosely arranged them in these holes, but I would love someone to confirm this is correct:
that leaves me with these parts:
A weird kidney shaped metal thing, 2 screws and 2 collars/spacers - no clue what to do with any of these, can only gues the kidney thing fits on like this:
Thanks David. Wasn't planning on removing engine as I'm told this can be done easily without the need for removal, so will give that a try first - have the facility to remove the engine if needed, just would rather avoid it.
When you talk about an adapter that the new pump slides into - there is no adapter in the kit, I guess I'll figure all that out when I get the existing sump off. I have a feeling I'll be on the phone to raceline a fair bit!
When you talk about an adapter that the new pump slides into - there is no adapter in the kit, I guess I'll figure all that out when I get the existing sump off. I have a feeling I'll be on the phone to raceline a fair bit!
ah, that makes sense.....
Another question on general setup (not specifically for DCL, although his advice is most welcome). I've been measuring for hoses and the current oil cooler looks to only have -8 fittings (welded on, so can't change). Is there any real harm in leaving the cooler plumbed in as-is and just having the dry sump tank separate - so the oil cooler is now nothing really to do with the dry sump? Or is this fundamentally bad?
I don't want to reduce the hoses in the dry sump to go through the cooler (I figure there is a reason they were made -12), and I certainly don't want to have to buy a new cooler to make the hoses work - if thats the case it will be a modine/lamanova unit (which I'd rather not spend on at the moment).
Another question on general setup (not specifically for DCL, although his advice is most welcome). I've been measuring for hoses and the current oil cooler looks to only have -8 fittings (welded on, so can't change). Is there any real harm in leaving the cooler plumbed in as-is and just having the dry sump tank separate - so the oil cooler is now nothing really to do with the dry sump? Or is this fundamentally bad?
I don't want to reduce the hoses in the dry sump to go through the cooler (I figure there is a reason they were made -12), and I certainly don't want to have to buy a new cooler to make the hoses work - if thats the case it will be a modine/lamanova unit (which I'd rather not spend on at the moment).
scz4 said:
Sorry to hijack, but on a related topic how reliable are these dry sumps? I've read a bit online about belts snapping, coming off etc and then causing damage to the engine. Probably great for race or track cars, but are you better off with a baffled sump for road use and the occasional track day?
This is why I've gone for this sump, there is no external pump and no belt to come off/snap. Generally though, as long as the design is good and the belt is changed at correct intervals there should be no issues - a lot of people have problems as they don't ever change the belt.REALIST123 said:
Excuse my ignorance but what drives the pump on your set up, and is this what Caterham fit to the engines now coming out of their factory, or are they belt driven?
Its a single internal pump to do both pressure and scavenge...yes, it is what caterham fit in factory now.mic said:
It can easily be fitted without taking the engine out. Use wellseal to fit the oil pump plate to the block and where the pump mates to the sump. The button head screws go through both plates on the outer side. When you fit the finger filter fit it with the seam facing the back. After the initial running remove this filter and check for any silcon debris.
Thanks for this mic, button head screws now moved and filter turned so seam is at back.Ok, started the install today, so know a little more - just updating this to help anyone else.
The black blanking screw - this is the first thing to go in, under the baffles towards the back of the sump (gearbox end) it fills a little inspection hole - can't get this wrong. Its a tapered fit so gets tight quickly.
The baffles as above are correct, however as mic aluded to the screws weren't correct. On closer inspection you get 3 types of small black screws:
4x button head
5x long socket cap
4x shorter socket cap
9x washers
The washers go with the socket caps. The longer ones go through both plates + spacers (middle holes) - the shorter ones go through only the bottom baffle and the button caps go through both baffles where they are touching. A little bit of threadlock doesn't go amiss here.
As suspected the small aluminium plug taps into the hole at the front of the sump with a little sealant.
The two little spacers/collars go between the pump and the sump itself - to fit them we gently placed the pump in place with the spacers and tightened the bolts evenly (i.e. 90 degrees each at a time) which effectively "pressed" the collars into place.
One thing I didn't realise is you have to remove the front engine cover - so off with the belts, pulley wheels, tensioners etc and then the big tight crank pulley/bolt (tough to get off, took 2 of us and big set of stilsons and a huge breaker bar).
Once you have the timing cover off its all fairly obvious - undo the sprocket bolt on the existing old pump and carefully remove sprocket and let chain dangle. Be careful as if for any reason the timing chain comes off you're screwed. Then remove the old pump by 4 long bolts - the pump/bolts won't be reused. There is a gasket at the back of the pump which comes off too.
Let all the old oil drain out, clean up the surface behind where the pump was, apply wellseal to the surface and the aluminium pump bracket then screw the bracket on - 17-18lb/ft torque to tighten the 2 screws.
Before fitting new pump pour a little oil into it (tiny amount) and turn pump by hand just to lubricate as they are dry assembled and this stops a little wear on initial start.
Now offer up the new pump to the bracket and wiggle into place. Get sprocket/chain and fit to pump (be aware it is keyed - get the correct side to the pump to make the flat parts align) - once done tighten sprocket bolt to 20lb/ft.
Thats as far as we got today.....all that is left to do is apply wellseal to pump/sump mating faces, attach the sump to the bottom of the engine (we are using a hylomar aerospace sealant rather than RTV - hateful stuff), attach the front cover and tighten everything up.
We also removed the old oil cooler, the mocal filter sandwich plate and hoses feeding the cooler, and I'll install the correct cooler with -12 fittings in series between scavenge pump and tank.
The black blanking screw - this is the first thing to go in, under the baffles towards the back of the sump (gearbox end) it fills a little inspection hole - can't get this wrong. Its a tapered fit so gets tight quickly.
The baffles as above are correct, however as mic aluded to the screws weren't correct. On closer inspection you get 3 types of small black screws:
4x button head
5x long socket cap
4x shorter socket cap
9x washers
The washers go with the socket caps. The longer ones go through both plates + spacers (middle holes) - the shorter ones go through only the bottom baffle and the button caps go through both baffles where they are touching. A little bit of threadlock doesn't go amiss here.
As suspected the small aluminium plug taps into the hole at the front of the sump with a little sealant.
The two little spacers/collars go between the pump and the sump itself - to fit them we gently placed the pump in place with the spacers and tightened the bolts evenly (i.e. 90 degrees each at a time) which effectively "pressed" the collars into place.
One thing I didn't realise is you have to remove the front engine cover - so off with the belts, pulley wheels, tensioners etc and then the big tight crank pulley/bolt (tough to get off, took 2 of us and big set of stilsons and a huge breaker bar).
Once you have the timing cover off its all fairly obvious - undo the sprocket bolt on the existing old pump and carefully remove sprocket and let chain dangle. Be careful as if for any reason the timing chain comes off you're screwed. Then remove the old pump by 4 long bolts - the pump/bolts won't be reused. There is a gasket at the back of the pump which comes off too.
Let all the old oil drain out, clean up the surface behind where the pump was, apply wellseal to the surface and the aluminium pump bracket then screw the bracket on - 17-18lb/ft torque to tighten the 2 screws.
Before fitting new pump pour a little oil into it (tiny amount) and turn pump by hand just to lubricate as they are dry assembled and this stops a little wear on initial start.
Now offer up the new pump to the bracket and wiggle into place. Get sprocket/chain and fit to pump (be aware it is keyed - get the correct side to the pump to make the flat parts align) - once done tighten sprocket bolt to 20lb/ft.
Thats as far as we got today.....all that is left to do is apply wellseal to pump/sump mating faces, attach the sump to the bottom of the engine (we are using a hylomar aerospace sealant rather than RTV - hateful stuff), attach the front cover and tighten everything up.
We also removed the old oil cooler, the mocal filter sandwich plate and hoses feeding the cooler, and I'll install the correct cooler with -12 fittings in series between scavenge pump and tank.
My breather currently comes from the outlet in the top of the engine and is t-pieced to the breather under the induction side which goes out to a catch tank (sports bottle 
), so I will need this blanking plate.
Sounds easy enough, just re-route the top outlet to the dry sump tank (which has a 2nd outlet down to the catch tank) and install the blanking plate.
), so I will need this blanking plate.Sounds easy enough, just re-route the top outlet to the dry sump tank (which has a 2nd outlet down to the catch tank) and install the blanking plate.
More progress today - sump and front cover fitted and sealed, pulleys re-assembled and new drive belt fitted. All that remains is to add hoses, fit oil tank and move header tank. Out of all of that I think moving the header tank is going to be the most complicated.
Does anyone know (or even better have pics) of where caterham place the header tank when an oil tank is fitted? I saw DCLs picture when he moved it to the side, is this what others do? How is it mounted, do Caterham sell a mount?
Final question, with the dry sump fitted the bell-housing sits a fair bit below the sump level - does anyone sell a skid plate or similar to reduce the abruptness of the impact should I hit a speed hump?
Does anyone know (or even better have pics) of where caterham place the header tank when an oil tank is fitted? I saw DCLs picture when he moved it to the side, is this what others do? How is it mounted, do Caterham sell a mount?
Final question, with the dry sump fitted the bell-housing sits a fair bit below the sump level - does anyone sell a skid plate or similar to reduce the abruptness of the impact should I hit a speed hump?
Ok, almost there. Hoses somewhat fitted but I wasn't happy with the position of one of them, so have ordered a few bits n pieces to make it easier.
One question for anyone who can answer. The breather outlet at the top of the engine is roughly 19mm, the breather inlet on the dry sump tank is 13mm. Will this matter? When having the tank speccd I spoke to Brise who advised having 2 breather ports on the top of the tank, so you could run from engine to tank, and have a 2nd one breathing the tank - they knew I was on a duratec and never asked what size these ports were to be, so I didn't specify. So am I ok to reduce the 19mm breather down to 13mm, or does this risk damage to the engine?
TBH I'm not overly impressed with the breather outlet position on this tank, it points straight forward to the top of the engine, making it a difficult fit - had I known it would come like this I may have done something different.
One question for anyone who can answer. The breather outlet at the top of the engine is roughly 19mm, the breather inlet on the dry sump tank is 13mm. Will this matter? When having the tank speccd I spoke to Brise who advised having 2 breather ports on the top of the tank, so you could run from engine to tank, and have a 2nd one breathing the tank - they knew I was on a duratec and never asked what size these ports were to be, so I didn't specify. So am I ok to reduce the 19mm breather down to 13mm, or does this risk damage to the engine?
TBH I'm not overly impressed with the breather outlet position on this tank, it points straight forward to the top of the engine, making it a difficult fit - had I known it would come like this I may have done something different.
DCL said:
I would have thought that 13mm will be adequate in most cases, but may depend on the condition of the engine. Also if you are revving to 8750 rpm, then I'd keep an eye on things - possibly testing it by leaving the engine end unfastened to see if it blows off. The crank seal on the Duratec is is bolted on at the rear and the front one is unlikely to move (and easy to replace) so it's unlikely you'll do any serious damage.
Thanks, I did figure you need less breather capacity because of the dry sump, but wanted to be sure...I'll test with it unfastened.Final fittings should be here tomorrow/friday,hoping to have it fired up at the weekend. The proximity of the sump inlet/outlet to the chassis bars (imperial chassis) has been a bit of an issue, but should be solved with speedflow fittings - pricey but substantially more compact than anything else.
It lives!!!
Had a bit of a panic at first start as it took a good few seconds to see pressure on the gauge but after that no problems. Pressure reading 50lb initially and dropping to 45 after a few minutes running. Revs up nicely, no visible leaks under idle.....now if I could just get the weather to cooperate so I can go for a drive!
NOT a job I'd want to do again.
Had a bit of a panic at first start as it took a good few seconds to see pressure on the gauge but after that no problems. Pressure reading 50lb initially and dropping to 45 after a few minutes running. Revs up nicely, no visible leaks under idle.....now if I could just get the weather to cooperate so I can go for a drive!
NOT a job I'd want to do again.
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