How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?
Discussion
I have an original 1.6 Superlight (2000 EU2 K-series with the Caterham Super Sport kit), which has covered just over 40,000 miles.
On track the car is really quick though the bends and really good on the brakes. However, down the straights and through the faster bends I really lose out to faster cars and can struggle to get confidently past quick cars.
My question is how much power makes for a genuinely fast 7?
I have had the green light to mod the car after I had to cancel a slot with Dave Andrews last year due to family life taking a priority, last year.
I know that the Caterham Super Sport ECU has the rev limit set too high for sustained rpm (@ 7600), so anticipate that I will need a bottom end rebuild to fit forged pistons in order to provide a suitable base for performance modifications.
With regard to performance modifications I anticipate that will involve head work, probably new cams and an ECU; just don't know what figure I am aiming for. The engine must be bomb proof / safe / reliable.
What I do know is that I really don't want to lose the sweet balance I have with the Superlight and the all round drive ability; which is something I have heard levied at some of the more powerful 7's.
Once I have some answers I can work out my budget but I really don't want to spend more than £5,000 all in; preferably less!
On track the car is really quick though the bends and really good on the brakes. However, down the straights and through the faster bends I really lose out to faster cars and can struggle to get confidently past quick cars.
My question is how much power makes for a genuinely fast 7?
I have had the green light to mod the car after I had to cancel a slot with Dave Andrews last year due to family life taking a priority, last year.
I know that the Caterham Super Sport ECU has the rev limit set too high for sustained rpm (@ 7600), so anticipate that I will need a bottom end rebuild to fit forged pistons in order to provide a suitable base for performance modifications.
With regard to performance modifications I anticipate that will involve head work, probably new cams and an ECU; just don't know what figure I am aiming for. The engine must be bomb proof / safe / reliable.
What I do know is that I really don't want to lose the sweet balance I have with the Superlight and the all round drive ability; which is something I have heard levied at some of the more powerful 7's.
Once I have some answers I can work out my budget but I really don't want to spend more than £5,000 all in; preferably less!
radical78 said:
about 180 will give you the power to overtake but still keep the balance you like if its already got super sport cams etc go to 1800cc that will be cheaper and safer than a lot of expensive tuning
So, to go to 1800cc is that 'just' a matter of new liners and pistons? Because if I am going to use forged pistons then it is just a case of factoring in new liners, which shouldn't cost too much more.Update: 1600 and 1800 K series engines apparently use the same pistons and liners and 1400 and 1600 K dries use the same crank. Therefore to convert a 1600 K series to 1800 requires a new crank is required. A quick open source search shows that QED sell a std 1800 crank for £540.
Edited by Green George on Monday 8th February 19:25
To be quite honest in my case a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and I will get some quotes and specs.
I would ideally like to use Dave Andrews but he is in such demand that a 6month + waiting list feels like a life time! I am based in the South East (just North of London) and my first thoughts are also to approach 7 Workshop, RatRace, James Whiting and or PT Sports cars. Is there anyone else I should be trying?
I would ideally like to use Dave Andrews but he is in such demand that a 6month + waiting list feels like a life time! I am based in the South East (just North of London) and my first thoughts are also to approach 7 Workshop, RatRace, James Whiting and or PT Sports cars. Is there anyone else I should be trying?
rubystone said:
Ratrace(Protune) build good engines. Had you thought about selling your car and buying an SLR/R400? A cheaper option when all's said and done and assuming yours is a genuine Superlight, you should be able to sell it easily enough. There's a great spec SLR in Blatchat at the moment.
Yes, it is a genuine Superlight and yes, I have looked at SLR's and R400's. I have concluded that to buy a new car would be a gamble especially when I know my car is excellent, being very well maintained and in fine fettle (there is a blog at http://www.pistonheads.com/members/showcar.asp?car... if you are interested). The Superlight is an excellent base as the spec is spot on. What I want to do is improve the performance whilst remaining true to the original design brief...
DVandrews said:
To convert 1600 to 1800 requires crank, rods and most likely pistons as removing from one rod and fitting to another is near impossible whole keeping the piston whole.
New 1800 cranks can be had for around £250-300.
Dave
Thanks Dave for your advice. I am looking at all options and will be in contact in due course to see what you advise and find out what the waiting time is.... I fully anticipate concluding the wait will be worth the end result.New 1800 cranks can be had for around £250-300.
Dave
I do use an aero screen on track days (depending on the weather) as it does make a noticeable difference to the performance.
In my opinion with Caterhams, mileage is not as significant as condition allied to a full and detailed history. It took me a long time to find the right car with the right spec; which is why I am loathed to buy a SLR or R400 instead.
The important thing to me is to sympathetically modify the engine. Dave Andrews is very clear about the limitations of the standard K Series bottom end and the potential issues of using the Super Sports higher rev limit for sustained periods. So a set of forged pistons and associated work makes sense; and to my way of thinking if you are going to do that it is worth looking at the top end at the same time as the engine will be stripped down to do the bottom end.
In my opinion with Caterhams, mileage is not as significant as condition allied to a full and detailed history. It took me a long time to find the right car with the right spec; which is why I am loathed to buy a SLR or R400 instead.
The important thing to me is to sympathetically modify the engine. Dave Andrews is very clear about the limitations of the standard K Series bottom end and the potential issues of using the Super Sports higher rev limit for sustained periods. So a set of forged pistons and associated work makes sense; and to my way of thinking if you are going to do that it is worth looking at the top end at the same time as the engine will be stripped down to do the bottom end.
BertBert said:
I never really got the frustration of other cars on track with my 1600 exec superlight. In fact I quite enjoyed harrying them in the corners even if they pulled away on the straights. I suspect if the criteria is really to go past others on the straights easily, then you will need to get to 200-230bhp with an 1800k.
I'm not sure if it's feasible to get there from a 1600k with all the bits needed for £5k. I think I'd be looking to find one that's already done and change yours for it. Whole car that is.
If it were me, with that starting point, I'd stick with 1600, have a DVA (or other) job done on it with DTHTBs and aim for around 160bhp.
Bert
Good points well made; although I am almost certain my starting point will be the fitting of forged pistons for peace of mind and longevity.I'm not sure if it's feasible to get there from a 1600k with all the bits needed for £5k. I think I'd be looking to find one that's already done and change yours for it. Whole car that is.
If it were me, with that starting point, I'd stick with 1600, have a DVA (or other) job done on it with DTHTBs and aim for around 160bhp.
Bert
rubystone said:
An SL has a fixed spec btw so I don't see why you had a problem finding one with the exact spec (or are you talking about paint, dials and Tillets or leather?).
Thanks for your advice. I am aware of the SL spec and the various options that were offered by Caterham. As you have asked, the problem I refer to having was finding a 7 with the spec I wanted. I looked at a lot of 7's before the I found the right car which in my case I discovered was an SL; as it was pretty much the right spec out of the box; however finding one with the right history and provenance took a while as they are quite a rare 7.Anyway, returning to the original topic, I thank you all for your advice. I think I am aiming for between 160bhp and 180bhp and the advice from BERT BERT makes a lot of sense to me, with regard to "Forged pistons, mild port, sensible cams (*not sure if the standard Super Sport cams count), Jenveys, exhaust, 160+bhp. #Superscreamingfun".
Re. the suspension my car is on the original Bilstein springs and shocks which seems to be performing fine but I have read about Meteor Motorsports Nitron valving and I am already looking at investing in a set of Simon's Nitron NTR1's and I see that Simon can supply front and rear Powerflex polyurethane suspension bushes, which might make sense to do at the same time....
Edited by Green George on Wednesday 10th February 18:15
Edited by Green George on Wednesday 10th February 19:16
tankplanker said:
Are you able to reduce the weight of your 7, particularly unsprung weight? Nearly everything, not just straight line performance, will improve if you can reduce the weight. Adding more BHP will just improve acceleration.
Other thing to think about is switching to paddles, my Indy has full bore throttle up and downshifts via the paddles, it is way faster than using a normal gear stick and makes a big difference for longer stretches of acceleration.
Tank platter I like your thinking but I am a big lad at about 110 kgs! I must endeavour to do something about that before focusing on the 7!Other thing to think about is switching to paddles, my Indy has full bore throttle up and downshifts via the paddles, it is way faster than using a normal gear stick and makes a big difference for longer stretches of acceleration.
I believe Meteor Motorsport does a paddle shift conversion https://www.meteormotorsport.com/caterham/caterham... not cheap but looks Gucci!
)I have been looking at the various DVA options and along with a bottom end rebuild to incorporate forged pistons and modified (fully floating) rods (£1400?), I am torn between the K04 (160 bhp+ on a 1600cc and £2970 with air box and 10% added as prices are out of date) and K05 (175 bhp+ on a 1600cc and £3850). I anticipate that both would require a rolling road session once run in at £???.
Don't forget that the opinions expressed here are 'subjective' and rarely objective. The value of SL's have definitely strengthened in the last couple of years from around the low £16,000 mark (trade) to the high £17,000 to mid £18,000 mark (trade).
As ever the real value is what someone will actually pay and I am sure I am not alone in buying on specification, history and provenance; and being willing to pay a premium for the right car.
A sympathetically modified SL or R series Caterham is neither unusual nor or sold more cheaply than a standard model; after all Caterham's tend not be all the same. If the car has the right modifications carried out professionally by the right people i.e. Dave Andrews with a K series engine the market finds this to be not only acceptable but also in some cases worth a premium.
Let me give you an example. There are apparently well documented issues with using the increased rev limit of a Super Sport (SS) equipped K series cars for prolonged periods. The rev limit is too high as the standard pistons have a high probability of expiring at RPM over 7200, in fact many of the SS cars used on track had issues with pistons breaking and had them replaced with Omega forged pistons. In this scenario It stands to reason that most people would want to know that this issue had been sorted out, properly, by a recognised marque expert.
As ever the real value is what someone will actually pay and I am sure I am not alone in buying on specification, history and provenance; and being willing to pay a premium for the right car.
A sympathetically modified SL or R series Caterham is neither unusual nor or sold more cheaply than a standard model; after all Caterham's tend not be all the same. If the car has the right modifications carried out professionally by the right people i.e. Dave Andrews with a K series engine the market finds this to be not only acceptable but also in some cases worth a premium.
Let me give you an example. There are apparently well documented issues with using the increased rev limit of a Super Sport (SS) equipped K series cars for prolonged periods. The rev limit is too high as the standard pistons have a high probability of expiring at RPM over 7200, in fact many of the SS cars used on track had issues with pistons breaking and had them replaced with Omega forged pistons. In this scenario It stands to reason that most people would want to know that this issue had been sorted out, properly, by a recognised marque expert.
As interesting as what comments are about what Caterham might be worth (or not). Perhaps, it would be be sensible to start a new topic or replying to a topic more suited to that subject, rather than this topic which is "How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?" That way it will help people find the information they are actually looking for when searching, as opposed to having to trawl through off topic chit chat...
rubystone said:
You don't need more power, you just need tuition in how to drive the car you already have. So forget about the extra power, join L7CGB, do a club trackday, take the free tuition on offer, follow the lines the guys on that day are taking and learn how to drive the car you have.
Thank you for your (off topic) replies, they are very entertaining; But, this topic really is entitled "How much power does it take to make a really quick 7?" However, as you have made a number of points, let me respond;I am an existing member of the L7C (with the same username).
I do do track days;
I do take tuition;
I have started a separate topic within the Track Days folder entitled "Advice please - 3rd party track day instruction".
BertBert said:
Not at all. It's all about personal choice. I much prefer lower powered caterhams - 140-170 bhp. I've only been as high as 230, but I far preferred my k-1600 to the R500. So horses for courses!
Bert
Wise words. I think a lot of people agree that the 7 sweet spot is 160-180 bhp. But it is all subjective.Bert
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