Crosflow powered 7 - won't start

Crosflow powered 7 - won't start

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Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
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My 1996 7 doesn't want to start after its winter layover. The starter motor is turning over well but the engine won't fire. It's on Twin Weber DCOE 40s.

Any suggestions?

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Thursday 16th February 2017
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Thanks for all your suggestions.

I'll see if I can check through any of those issues over the next few days.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Saturday 18th February 2017
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I have to say, I've had my Seven for over 20 years and this is the first time ever I've had this problem after the winter layover.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Sunday 19th February 2017
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I spent all morning cleaning out the carbs and the fuel filters. I also removed all the spark plugs and cleaned them up.

Still no joy.

I then decided to see if I could see fuel being sprayed into the carbs when I manipulated the throttle control springs. I imagine I should be able to see the spray through the chamber where the fuel filters are located. I could see nothing.

Would this be indicative of a fuel pump issue?

The one thing I didn't do was remove and check the distributor. On a twin Weber Crossflow the distributor is located directly behind the front carb and this really needs to be removed in order to get at the distributor. I just don't have the confidence to remove a whole carb and, more importantly, be sure I could put it back on correctly.


Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Sunday 19th February 2017
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Equus said:
Were the float chambers of the carbs full of fuel when you took the tops off to clean them out? The carburettors have floats in them, with a valve that acts like the ball valve on your toilet cistern. Provided the fuel is getting to the carbs, and the float valves haven't stuck, the float chamber of the carburettor should be swimming in petrol... you can't miss it! If the float chambers are not full of petrol, then clearly the petrol isn't reaching them from the fuel tank.

Are you on a mechanical or electric fuel pump?

Very basic faultfinding:

First, are you sure there's fuel in the tank?

Disconnect the fuel pipe where it enters the carb (direct it into a bottle or something to catch the fuel, and also disconnect the low tension leads from the coil, so you don't have a spark is a good idea!), then switch the ignition on. If you have an electric pump, you'll hear it operating, and fuel should start coming through the pipe and collecting in the bottle. If a mechanical pump, you'll need to actually turn the engine over using the starter motor.

If fuel isn't coming out of the pipe by this point, you have a fuel supply problem (no fuel, blocked fuel pipe, non-functional fuel pump).

Second: do you have a spark?:

Take a spark plug out and rest it on top of the exhaust manifold. Turn the engine over on the starter. You should see the spark plug sparking. If it isn't you have an ignition problem.

If you have fuel getting to the carburettors and a nice, strong spark getting to the plugs, then the problem is most likely to be with the carburettors (blocked jets) or stale fuel.
The fuel tank is about 1/4 full. It is registering on the dash fuel meter.

I think the fuel pump on the 1600 Crossflow with twin carbs is mechanical.

The engine is turning over on the starter motor. It just won't fire up.

I can't really rest a plug on the exhaust manifold AND turn the ignition over at the same as my arms aren't long enough smile

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Sunday 19th February 2017
quotequote all
Equus said:
Your arms shouldn't be anywhere near the plug (or the plug lead) - that's the idea of resting it on top of the exhaust manifold!

If you're holding it at the time, you might well get a big enough belt of electricity (especially for an old bugger like you, and especially if you have electronic ignition fitted) to kill you!!

So long as you can see the electrode of the spark plug as you're turning the engine over, and the metal body (not electrode!) of the plug is in contact with some bare metal part of the engine, you should be able to see the spark as you stand beside the cockpit and turn the car over on the starter. In fact you'll probably hear it, too, if you have your hearing aid turned on - it sounds like the piezo electric clicking of the spark on a gas cooker hob.

No disrespect, but if you need to be asking these questions, I'm inclined to suggest that you need to get someone in who knows what they're doing.
That's exactly why I'm asking. If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't be asking.

You don't need to be rude about it.

I will be getting a garage to look at it now as I recognise what I can and can't do.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Sunday 19th February 2017
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Aeroscreens said:
Hi Eric,

I've mentioned your problem to Brent you says he'll try pop round in a few days to see if he can sort out your problem
Thank you very much. Even though Brent lives locally I haven't seen him for quite a while.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
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Equus said:
Sorry - I didn't realise you were asking: there was no question mark on the end of your statement that your arms weren't long enough to reach.

Not intending to be rude, but whilst the basic faultfinding is really simple (if you've got a spark and petrol, it should run, so it's just a matter of finding out which is missing, and where), it involves playing with flammable liquids and very high voltages, so if you're likely to do silly things like holding a spark plug in your hand as the live ignition system tries to fire it, you're best not touching anything and getting someone in.
If I'd known what to do, I wouldn't have opened the thread in the first place. Although I'm no mechanic and freely admit it, I have taken part in car maintenance and repair courses, including one that was for a whole year. At no point was I ever advised to carry out any sort of test using spark plugs lying on exhaust manifolds - probably because the teachers would not have been silly enough to advise such a tactic.

As it is, I had no intention of doing this because, in the back of my mind, it did seem not quite "right".

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
quotequote all
Maybe they were concerned about the dangers and didn't want to be sued if some pupil electrocuted themselvessmile

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
quotequote all
Grumbly said:
Eric, I work in Aldershot and believe you are local? If you are stuck I'd be happy to pop over one evenening to see if we could at least narrow the posibilities a bit.
That would be very kind of you. I'll e-mail you my details so we can get in touch.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
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It looks like a solution may be imminent - hopefully. Thank you Mike - and to all the others who provided useful information.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
quotequote all
BertBert said:
My point was questioning whether the x-flow caterham had a choke!
Simple answer - no.

And cars have "whizzy bits"?

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
quotequote all
Equus said:
Eric Mc said:
And cars have "whizzy bits"?
Well some do. Yours is failing to whiz at the moment, Eric.

It may not be whizzing, but it is chugging a bit.

(You see, I'm well versed in this technical lingo).

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Monday 20th February 2017
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Mine doesn't leak (much).

But then, it doesn't work either (at the moment).

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Thursday 23rd February 2017
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Many thanks to Mike for popping over last night and checking out my car. We are pretty sure the fault has been identified - a broken distributor cap. So, a new cap and rotor arm will be on order today.

Thanks also to all who have suggested various theories over the past few fays

I'll let you know if and when everything is sorted.

GO PISTONHEADS.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Friday 24th February 2017
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Central electrode is gone - completely. It must have broken and fallen off.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Friday 24th February 2017
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Thanks for explaining the technical problems more correctly.

I can't wait to get the distributor on and firing the 7 up - fingers crossed.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Friday 24th February 2017
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I definitely will. I'm expecting the bits to arrive in the first half of next week.

I'll post some pictures up of the old distributor so you can see what state it was in as well.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Friday 3rd March 2017
quotequote all
Not yet.

I fitted the new distributor cap but no joy.

However, I may not have everything connected correctly so will give it another go when I get the chance.

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,033 posts

265 months

Saturday 4th March 2017
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Grumbly said:
Eric, would you like a second pair of eyes on the connections?
I had a very busy week last week so couldn't really spare any time to try and arrange anything.

I'll drop you a line during the week if that's OK.

Your assistance is very much appreciated.