Does anyone know the history of this caterham?

[Nerra]

Had my eye on this for a while now but being in Sheffield, I can't exactly 'nip down' and have a look. Thought it would be worth asking the question as someone might have known the previous owner etc etc.

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/1114846.htm

I'm sure I would probably have better luck on blatchat but I'm still sorting my membership and so I can't post yet.

[Nerra]

Thanks Rubystone, thats definitely worth knowing. Would you say its a bad thing if it did come from an ex-race car? I know race engines are pushed really hard but in most cases they are also maintained to a much higher standard, what are your thoughts?

Do you think its value is affected negatively due to the engine conversion? I'm almost surprised it hasn't sold and so I'm looking for the negatives, maybe I'm just too cynical

[Nerra]

Tango7 said:

I know the previous owner of this car. I believe he only got rid of it through lack of use and moved on to a Lotus Exige S. If you are serious about buying it, I can drop him a line to see if he will get in touch.

That would be fantastic Tango as I am very serious about buying it.

[Nerra]

BertBert said:

Yep, looks a good age/condition to buy- good price perf. With that level of performance though, you need to make sure of the history and current condition of the engine thus avoiding the potential for expensive rebuilds.

Bert

Thanks Bert. Hopefully if I do get in touch with the previous owner those question will be answered.

[Nerra]

Chris71 said:

If that's in good nic I'd be very tempted. That seemed to be the sort of price that base-spec Superlights were going for when I was looking.

Actually of the two Superlights I nearly bought for that sort of price one turned out to be a kit built Roadsport illegally passed off by the factory as a Superlight and the other, which was a genuine example, suddenly dissapeared off the market when the owner decided it was worth substantially more... Rant over.

Did you end up buying one Chris? How long ago were you looking? How did you find out about the Roadsport?

[Nerra]

It did seem like quite an optimistic number for said engine. Personally I'm not bothered if it only makes around 210 but it will definitely give me something to haggle on if they have claimed its 245bhp and its not.

I guess the next question is, if the dyno plot is correct then is it healthy for said engine to be running at that sort of power?

[Nerra]

Chris71 said:

Nerra said:

Chris71 said:

If that's in good nic I'd be very tempted. That seemed to be the sort of price that base-spec Superlights were going for when I was looking.

Actually of the two Superlights I nearly bought for that sort of price one turned out to be a kit built Roadsport illegally passed off by the factory as a Superlight and the other, which was a genuine example, suddenly dissapeared off the market when the owner decided it was worth substantially more... Rant over.

Did you end up buying one Chris? How long ago were you looking? How did you find out about the Roadsport?

Not a Superlight, no, I bought an ex-race Roadsport A, with most of the same toys on it. I spent about 2 months looking and saw about 6 cars in the flesh during that time. As usual with secondhand cars, the condition didn't always correlate to the age, the price or indeed the description on the ad, so beware!

The car that I nearly bought from the factory was quite a saga. The short answer is I got a friend to do an HPI check and this revealed various things including the chassis number.

Take a look at this: http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?ChassisNumbers

Going on the above I was able to work out that it started life as a kit built 5-speed Roadsport. The HPI check also said it should be green. Caterham said it was a yellow 6-speed Superlight that had been through the company's Drive Experience program.

The guy I spoke to at Caterham (just before I did the HPI check) suddenly remembered something else he needed to do urgently when the subject of chassis numbers came up! By the time I got back to them that afternoon it had been sold to some other poor unfortunate. I say unfortunate ... it was actually a very smart car, fresh from a factory rebuild to near-Superlight spec, but it was still rather naughty of them to sell it as a real one, particularly at the price of a real one.

Wow, it just goes to show you've got to do all your checks no matter who you're buying from.

[Nerra]

fergus said:

Nerra said:

It did seem like quite an optimistic number for said engine. Personally I'm not bothered if it only makes around 210 but it will definitely give me something to haggle on if they have claimed its 245bhp and its not.

I guess the next question is, if the dyno plot is correct then is it healthy for said engine to be running at that sort of power?

It's as healthy as the amount of prep and strengthening mods that have gone into the motor. For that sort of power from a K, I'd want to see evidence of a full dynamic balance on the bottom end, steel rods and rod bolts, steel flywheel, forged pistons, steel oil pump rotor, possibly uprated big end bearings (depends who built the engine), mods to the gudgeon pin on the piston (allow it to float), liners being at correct height, etc, etc.

Find out who built the engine first if I was you. As has also been said, make sure it's a real superlight.

Thats a massive help, thanks fergus.

The advert says "Upgraded Exhaust System, Fully balance Crank / Flywheel" which would suggest some work has been done.

I think my best bet at the moment is if Tango comes through with his contact and then I can hopefully verify all this info and get the real low down on the vehicle.

I've not rang the garage yet but I don't have much faith in garages as they will normally tell you anything to get a sale.

I don't suppose any of you are near West Sussex? Would be handy to have someone with some real knowledge and experience by my side when I go to look at it.

[Nerra]

Well I gave the garage a quick ring and they claim to have a folder full of all the documents which support the work that has been done to the engine. I asked if I could have the number/name of the specialist who carried the work out so that I could give them a ring and the guy said he would ring me back after getting the info.

He said there is fine misting of oil on the sump and a slight rattle from a release bearing at the top of the clutch? I presume he's talking about the thrust bearing?
Apparently an overseas buyer who was previously interested wanted these sorting at their own (the buyers) cost so the garage got a quote from their specialist to carry out the work and it came to £900.
So the garage has turned round and said that if they do carry this work out that they will be adding it on to the price.

In my experience of thrust bearings, if thats what he's on about, they tend to rattle a bit anyway and the fine misting of oil is not a biggy, what do you guys think?

[Nerra]

casbar said:

My R300's clutch/gearbox sounds like a bag of nails when the engine is running and out of gear, nothing to worry about. Well if it is, mines been like it for 4 years

Fine mist of oil - would say they all do that, and I'd guess not an issue to sort out, could be coming from anywhere, but again, mine tends to have some oil underneath, probably from the gearbox I'd guess.

Thanks, thats good to know.

[Nerra]

Chris71 said:

Yep, Caterham powertrains can be quite vocal, don't forget the plate type limited slip diffs can be very noisy and that sometimes carries forwards to sound like a gearbox fault. The best thing is to go and have a look at cars of similar spec to the sort of thing you're hoping to buy and get an idea of what's normal. They do vary quite a lot and - assuming you're not already familiar with Caterhams - it would be good to get a feel for them.

Mine's not up to the sort of spec you're looking at, but you're welcome to come and kick some tyres if that's any help. Likewise, heading over to the local Lotus Seven Club meet would be a wise idea.

I don't know much about the longevity of the K-Series at high outputs, but the only one I looked at with circa 200bhp had receipts for numerous engine repairs (several head gaskets for example), so it's definitely worth reading into.

Thanks for the offer Chris, where abouts are you based?

[Nerra]

fergus said:

Nerra said:

He said there is fine misting of oil on the sump and a slight rattle from a release bearing at the top of the clutch? I presume he's talking about the thrust bearing?..... got a quote from their specialist to carry out the work and it came to £900.....
So the garage has turned round and said that if they do carry this work out that they will be adding it on to the price.

In my experience of thrust bearings, if thats what he's on about, they tend to rattle a bit anyway and the fine misting of oil is not a biggy, what do you guys think?

The thrust/clutch release bearing (CRB) is MAX £300 to do (even though the part is only circa £10). The source of the mist needs investigating, and I'd be surprised if it cost more than £50 to put right. Ask who provided the quote!

These were my thoughts exactly. In my experience the thrust bearing is often done at the same time as a clutch replacement.

The guy never got back to me (surprise, surprise) with the details of the garage who carried out the conversion so I'll have to get on the phone and hassle him again tomorrow

[Nerra]

BertBert said:

The most important thing about this car is the engine. A that bhp it has to have had a proper and expensive job done to get there.

Also it has a high cost risk going forward- that's top end power for a k.

From a buying pov, do you have a rationale for wanting that much power? It will give it a specific driving experience.

Many work on the more is better ethos. More is actually different. For me I'd rather run 160 ish hp. 245 is not my bag at all on the road.

Bert

I'm not looking for the most powerful caterham out there, I would be happy with 190bhp. I fully agree with you that more is definitely not always better. If this particular Caterham was making 190bhp I would still be interested as I like the spec, condition and colour

I imagine that an engine like this gets all its power through revving like hell in other words right at the top of the rev range. That would make it a lot more usable than an engine with a big turbo on for instance which could easily bite you in the arse if you're not careful.
So my thinking is that day to day I would simply not be taking it to 9000rpm (or where ever it redlines at) and so the engine would generally have a pretty easy life but then come the odd track day there would be a bit more range to play with.

From my bike engine experience, I know that engines tend to go pop when they are constantly over revved (valves start to stretch etc)and this almost always happens when racing as opposed to on the road. It was very common when riders switched from a 2 stroke over to a 4 stroke. If you short shift and keep well within the rev range then the engine would stay rock solid.

I appreciate the questions and the feedback. I'm here to learn and all your advice is greatly appreciated.

[Nerra]

fergus said:

BertBert said:

The most important thing about this car is the engine. A that bhp it has to have had a proper and expensive job done to get there.

Also it has a high cost risk going forward- that's top end power for a k.

DVA has done a 257hp K

PS doesn't necesseriliy mean Minister expensive, but granted, you'd want to see a ream of invoices!

According to the garage there is a massive folder of invoices. I'll definitely do some more investigating though.

[Nerra]

Chris71 said:

That's the great thing about Caterham ownership though - it's full of people who really know their stuff and there's no shortage of them. They're a very hands on and remarkably helpful bunch that I'm already much in-debted to.

Thats the impression I get and definitely one of the big reasons I want to own one.

[Nerra]

Right, I spoke to the guy at the garage and he has informed me that a chap named Simon Erland did the conversion. He was happy to pass on his contact details.

A quick google of the name brought this up...

http://www.elise-r.co.uk/category/king_k/

...which doesn't fill me with confidence. I also asked if the V5 showed it as being a 1.6 or a 1.8 and its still registered as a 1.6.

[Nerra]

fergus said:

Nerra said:

Right, I spoke to the guy at the garage and he has informed me that a chap named Simon Erland did the conversion. He was happy to pass on his contact details.

A quick google of the name brought this up...

http://www.elise-r.co.uk/category/king_k/

...which doesn't fill me with confidence. I also asked if the V5 showed it as being a 1.6 or a 1.8 and its still registered as a 1.6.

I think you may be wise to walk away from this car/engine combo. I don't think an Erland 245hp will be as reliable as a minister/DVA 245hp car.....

Do your homework prior to parting with any cash. If the engine goes pop, due to the likely hood of running non standard parts at that power, the cost of putting it right is likely to be higher!

I think you're right Fergus, time to start looking elsewhere.

[Nerra]

Incorrigible said:

Nerra said:

I don't suppose any of you are near West Sussex? Would be handy to have someone with some real knowledge and experience by my side when I go to look at it.

We're just round the corner (RH20 4HS) happy to help

Ben

Appreciate the offer Ben but it doesn't look like I'll be going for this one now.