Message from Southways - please read

[Kitchski]

(Mods - not an advert, please don't remove)

Hi all,

If you had, or own a car that once had a chassis refurbishment (or renewed fuel lines alone) carried out by us, please read the attached link and get in touch. There's a chance your car is affected, and we want to check it out as soon as possible:

Recall Notice

We don't think there's a chance many cars will be, due to the fact we purchase in small quantities, so if there has been a dodgy batch of hose, we didn't buy much of it to start with.

Not a post I wanted to make, and rest assured we're thoroughly pissed-off that something we had no control over is going to be something that invariably harms us as a business. And we're a very small business.

Please read the link, get in touch if you think you're affected and let us check it out before you go bombing around for the summer. If your car is affected, we'll re-pipe it as a warranty job, regardless of mileage covered or time elapsed since the refurbishment. No cost to you.

Thanks

Rich

[Kitchski]

Top Gear TVR said:

hi - have you ever worked on K331 NES?

Nope, never had that one through the door.

But seriously - check the hoses anyway!

[Kitchski]

GreenV8S said:

I have no connection with your business, but if I was a customer then I would be very reassured by your response.

If it's any consolation, I had a batch of hose from Pirtek that was supposed to be unleaded-friendly but started to degrade within 18 months - I suspect you're far from the only people to see the problem.

Cheers. I think it's likely lots of people are going to be affected. We wouldn't have noticed if it weren't for the fact we tend to ask people to bring cars back in 500miles or so after we've done a refurb on a chassis, just to allow for any nuts or bolts that need nipping up, hose clips that have seated etc. Had a Griffith in last week (hoses in the photo were from it) and was pretty shocked to see the state of them. It's the people who've used it simply for a repair that worry me, as they have no reason to suspect it's anything other than a long-term solution.

I'm passing everything we know/will learn over to the Practical Classics team. Hopefully if nothing else, it will get more people to check their own cars if they make a bit of noise about it.

[Kitchski]

Scoobimax said:

Ditto - sign of a quality and conscientious company.

I doubt you've worked on K712 BWO but worth just checking.

Cheers,

Max

Cheers Max!

Nope, haven't had the plesure on your latest steed. Check your lines though, especially as it hasn't been used much!

[Kitchski]

Le TVR said:

Feel very sorry for Rich that he has been left to pick up this fall-out from what is obviously defective hose. My one has about ten times the cracking compared to the photo in the notice and it had already started to weep fuel in less than 1000km. It may be related to the ethanol content of modern fuels which can be up to 5% on fuel that is not marked as E something! I suspect that the certification of hoses needs looking at? Either that or we have another case of Chinese counterfeit approval marks.....

Rich has been exemplary throughout and I am very happy that it was his company that did all the restoration of my car.
Not your fault Rich but well done for how you are dealing with it

Thanks Pete

[Kitchski]

gifdy said:

Thanks for putting this warning out on a public forum - you could have restricted the circulation to only your customers so appreciate your openness. I'll be checking mine this weekend.

The main reason for this was to try and reach the people we don't have contact details for. That includes customers from before our IT system change, and customers who've sold their cars on (amazingly, people do this after shelling out on making the chassis mint!)

I'm also in talks with Practical Classic magazine, and I'm hoping they'll run a feature on ethanol and fuel lines in general.

[Kitchski]

TurboTony said:

Richard. Is it wise to change to a hose suitable for ethanol? I know that R9 is designed to be OK but would it be worth going to a higher spec? As an example here is one but other suppliers are on the web:

http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/ethanol-proo...


although I cannot remember if our hose is 8mm! Has any one experienced any problems with the large diameter pipe from the tank?

There are some interesting articles about ethanol, although there is a focus on carburettors which I guess would rule out that double pumper Holley conversion!!!!

This is a very long article but it does make the point that some lower quality hoses had been re- marked as R9 so purchase from a reputable supplier:

http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm

Hi Tony, to my knowledge, DIN 73379-3D equates to SAE J30R9 anyway. If you read a bit further on in that Volksbolts link, you'll see the permittivity ratings place R9 at the top. R12 is also good, although much less commonly found, and the higher number doesn't always mean it's better for the job, as they have different operating parameters. One of them is designed to be submerged, for example, so suitable as a pick-up hose in a tank. R9 even outperforms A1-marine hose (though A1 is required for the supply hose from tank to pump as it's currently the best product available in that size).
J30R9 is, to my knowledge, the best spec we could use on our cars. For reference, the fuel hose I.D was originally listed in imperial measurements, and converted to metric comes out at 7.6mm. Sometimes it's labelled as 8mm, but I believe this is just a case of rounding up the sizes (pump supply hose on an S is 16mm.....or 15.7mm to be exact - something like that).

The Volksbolts article is well worth a read for everybody though. It's the best article I've found so far.

[Kitchski]

Le TVR said:

Quick heads-up but with mine the fuel filter was badly contaminated which was causing missfires and poor running (fuel pump was noticeebly louder...) see clause 3.2 in the qinetic report in the volksbolt link above.
If you have to change the hose, change the filter as well.

Thanks for the follow up Pete. Noted :-)

[Kitchski]

awep said:

Is there a certain procedure for checking the fuel lines?

Just a visual check on every rubber hose, especially on the outside of curved sections

[Kitchski]

Just to update this:

• So far we've have around 7 or 8 affected cars (including my own).
• The hose affected has only been the SAE J30R9 hose, which is unbranded and uses block capital white lettering.
• We've had an isolated case of a hose marked '400-series' fail, which was fitted to a single car. This is the only hose that has actually weeped any fuel and was only fitted to one car (and has now been rectified)
• One of the hoses was stamped 10/2014, yet had failed already.
• They're failing on the outside of swept curves, and around the bulges caused by the flares on the end of the copper/Kunifer pipes too.
• When they have fuel in them, they feel soft. Drain them and remove them, and they go rock hard.
• I've seen this type of hose for sale in Halfords, Euro Car Parts and on various online supplier's websites, as well as eBay and the like.
• We're now using Continental, Goodyear or Gates Barricade, the later of which we're hoping to set up a supply for.
• We *think* we've addressed all the affected cars now, but please double check if you're not sure, or even if you've done your hoses recently - one of our customers happened to mention he'd done it, and found his car was affected. He was only in for a service!
• The hose isn't failing internally, or causing any contamination of the fuel system. It's the inner membrane absorbing the Ethanol (we think) which is then drying out the outer membrane, causing the fracturing.

[Kitchski]

Another update on the ongoing fuel hose saga:

Not a recall as we think we've covered all ours now, but more of a heads up. Took a Chimaera in for a 6k service, and it appears to have had the fuel hoses over the bellhousing renewed in recent years, as you do if you're working in that area.

While the engine was running, I could see something amiss with the hoses, so advised the customer we change them due to the ongoing issues, and the fact some minor cracking was visible in the engine bay.

When we removed the hoses, I was surprised to see they were not the usual type that fails (unbranded, block capital white text saying "SAEJ30 R9 FUEL INJECTION HOSE 7.6MM" and the like. This stuff is branded as (as read on the hose itself):

"UNIVERSALKRAFTSTOFF FLENNOR GERMANY 7.0MM MULTICARBURANT 7.0MM UNIVERSELE BRANDSTOFF MULTIFUEL MULTI CARBURANTE 0210110"

Sounds like a Welsh village, eh?

No date stamp on the hose, and a quick Google search has yielded no additional info. It's possible that it's not suitable as fuel injection hose, but if a garage has fitted this (we're pretty sure we know who's done it, looking at the history) then a retail customer could easily be mistaken and have fitted it too.

The images are lifted from our Facebook page, and I'd urge you to use that as the first port of call when looking for info as that is the most up to date online platform we have. The website is too much of a faff to work with!

You don't need to sign in to Facebook to view the page, or give it any of your details - it's public access.

https://www.facebook.com/SouthwaysAutomotive/posts...

This is the hose as it sits on my desk:



This is the same hose with 20PSI inside:



(Chimaera's fuel system runs at 38PSI)

We now only install Gates Barricade hose on any of our jobs (or regular Gates fuel hose if Barricade isn't available). Barricade is designed to work with Bio-fuels and Marine fuels, and is an R14 grade hose, only with increased working pressure limits (225PSI).
We've had a few people ask if we are actually able to supply the Gates hose, as it's notoriously hard to source. We're not at a point where we could be classed as a stockist, but we may be able to help if you get stuck or have an emergency issue such as this.

So if you've got the above hose, or this hose:



....then you need to act. Now.

[Kitchski]

TVRees said:

Seems like a genuine German product. See here ....
http://www.flennor.de/produkte/benzinschlaeuche.ht... "Deutsche Qualität!"

But, thanks for the warning, that's always good to know.
From a Welshman who speaks German

Link doesn't work sadly, any chance of having a quick look to see if it is fuel injection hose? As that plays quite an important part in this.

Thanks

From an Englishman who's useless and can't speak any other languages

[Kitchski]

TVRees said:

Here's the link again for everyone ... in English

link

I tested the link and for me it was OK.

Cheers, that one works

Looks like it's medium pressure fuel injection hose. Should have been ok for 50PSI, but guessing the Ethanol has destroyed it.