Trying to keep H.M.S. Morale afloat!
Discussion
The fun and games begin! Those who know me will know since I rebuilt the S1, I've had issues with a rattly engine. Not normal-for-an-old-Cologne-rattly. Rattly like, horribly rattly. Drives fine, behaves fine, sounds bloody awful!
Having checked the valve clearances about 5,302 times now, I'm into the next stage; I fitted a solid alloy cam gear set, and a Piper BP270 fast road cam when I rebuilt the engine. I've heard from other people who believe one or the other can cause the horrible noise. Matey from Tickover seemed to think the Piper cams have an aggressive 'off' ramp, which is why they preferred Kent. Other people said the alloy pulley was fine, it's just the steel one that whines a bit. Others said 'oh no, the alloy ones chatter like buggery'! It is a chattering noise that I've got, in fairness.
So, I am now into the realms of stripping down the front of the car, to change the alloy gear back to a used standard one, just to see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, I have to take it all apart again to change the camshaft for a standard one, and there's no guarantee that will cure it either! And.....there is the chance that the crank gear will also need changing - the steel pulley works with the original crank gear, but the alloy one came with a replacement, which I fitted. Now I don't know whether the replacement was needed because, alloy being softer than steel, it needs a new surface to bed in against, or because the pitch of the helical gears is different. If it does turn out to be different, I'll need to drop the sump off to change that too, just to see if my noise goes away, and that means either removing the engine (no thanks) or cutting the lower brace and modifying it to be a removable one (more likely). And that, boys and girls, is why I've been in a grump with my S for over a year - all this work, and I might still have to live with a horrible chattering noise!
Having checked the valve clearances about 5,302 times now, I'm into the next stage; I fitted a solid alloy cam gear set, and a Piper BP270 fast road cam when I rebuilt the engine. I've heard from other people who believe one or the other can cause the horrible noise. Matey from Tickover seemed to think the Piper cams have an aggressive 'off' ramp, which is why they preferred Kent. Other people said the alloy pulley was fine, it's just the steel one that whines a bit. Others said 'oh no, the alloy ones chatter like buggery'! It is a chattering noise that I've got, in fairness.
So, I am now into the realms of stripping down the front of the car, to change the alloy gear back to a used standard one, just to see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't, I have to take it all apart again to change the camshaft for a standard one, and there's no guarantee that will cure it either! And.....there is the chance that the crank gear will also need changing - the steel pulley works with the original crank gear, but the alloy one came with a replacement, which I fitted. Now I don't know whether the replacement was needed because, alloy being softer than steel, it needs a new surface to bed in against, or because the pitch of the helical gears is different. If it does turn out to be different, I'll need to drop the sump off to change that too, just to see if my noise goes away, and that means either removing the engine (no thanks) or cutting the lower brace and modifying it to be a removable one (more likely). And that, boys and girls, is why I've been in a grump with my S for over a year - all this work, and I might still have to live with a horrible chattering noise!
Valve springs are piper ones as per the cam kit.
I now have a good used wheel. I only changed it for solid as I dropped my origin and couldn't find a replacement. I didn't want to risk a weakened gear.
First stage is to fit the fibre one to the current setup, if the bottom gear allows it. See what happens. I'll probably make a flow chart!
I now have a good used wheel. I only changed it for solid as I dropped my origin and couldn't find a replacement. I didn't want to risk a weakened gear.
First stage is to fit the fibre one to the current setup, if the bottom gear allows it. See what happens. I'll probably make a flow chart!
Well, H.M.S. Morale hit a mine today, and is taking on water.
Sump has to come off
The crank gear is cut very slightly differently, and it's not suitable for the original fibre gear. My dreams of popping a fibre gear wheel back on and finding it sounding sweeter than the idea of Bianca Kajlich soaked in Golden Syrup are in tatters!
Now I'm either faced with the prospect of trying to find time to cut the lower beam out of the (freshly refurbished) chassis and modify it so it's a removable part, or I remove the engine. I don't really like the idea of cutting that brace out, but I like the idea of taking the engine out even less, and if I find a sensible way of doing the brace, I might be able to start incorporating the design into future chassis restos.
Bugger.
Sump has to come off
The crank gear is cut very slightly differently, and it's not suitable for the original fibre gear. My dreams of popping a fibre gear wheel back on and finding it sounding sweeter than the idea of Bianca Kajlich soaked in Golden Syrup are in tatters!
Now I'm either faced with the prospect of trying to find time to cut the lower beam out of the (freshly refurbished) chassis and modify it so it's a removable part, or I remove the engine. I don't really like the idea of cutting that brace out, but I like the idea of taking the engine out even less, and if I find a sensible way of doing the brace, I might be able to start incorporating the design into future chassis restos.
Bugger.
It was an alloy gear set. I didn't buy the steel one because (and you're going to love this).....I didn't want it to sound crap.
I know.
As for the removable member, I'm pretty much decided to do it, but I just want to figure out the best way to do it. Looking at the chassis, it can only really reinforce the distance between the lower chassis rails laterally, and possibly (at a stretch) spread the load transmitted by the engine mounts. The Cologne's a heavy old lump, so having that brace there sures things up a bit. I certainly wouldn't want to do without it. I just need to figure out a way of replacing it. I have a couple of ideas in my head, will sit on the can tonight and have a think
I know.
As for the removable member, I'm pretty much decided to do it, but I just want to figure out the best way to do it. Looking at the chassis, it can only really reinforce the distance between the lower chassis rails laterally, and possibly (at a stretch) spread the load transmitted by the engine mounts. The Cologne's a heavy old lump, so having that brace there sures things up a bit. I certainly wouldn't want to do without it. I just need to figure out a way of replacing it. I have a couple of ideas in my head, will sit on the can tonight and have a think
phillpot said:
And I thought it was only there because, when making a chassis, it's easier to feed one length of tube through from outrigger to outrigger rather than two "stubs" terminating at the main chassis rails 
It's much easier just welding some lengths of tube onto the side of the chassis rail, trust me! Trying to feed it through from one side to the other is actually harder to get right.Personally I think it's just to spread the load of the engine it's being thrown up and down over bumps etc.
From a structural POV, I also like TVRees' design.
I don't think it'll work for me though, as I still have my engine in, and won't be able to seam weld all the way around the circumference of the tube.
At the moment, I'm thinking more along the lines of Philpot's idea, only with a right angle on the bottom of each of the mounting plates to give them more strength. I might also install some bolts vertically into the chassis rail, as well as horizontally, all with crush tubes.
I'll continue to think. And cry.
I don't think it'll work for me though, as I still have my engine in, and won't be able to seam weld all the way around the circumference of the tube.
At the moment, I'm thinking more along the lines of Philpot's idea, only with a right angle on the bottom of each of the mounting plates to give them more strength. I might also install some bolts vertically into the chassis rail, as well as horizontally, all with crush tubes.
I'll continue to think. And cry.
Alan Whitaker said:
Hi Richard
Sounds like you will have a nice car when done, On the Composite cam gear (fibre gear), I don't like them at all, I used to make my own gears (when I had the machines to do it), I always made Steel straight cut ones with a Vernier adjustment for accurate cam timing, I am sure these will be available from someone.
I do think Mike's idea is good if you have done all the painting but would go for a flange type fixing if it was a bare chassis.
Alan
I'm putting faith in the fibre Sounds like you will have a nice car when done, On the Composite cam gear (fibre gear), I don't like them at all, I used to make my own gears (when I had the machines to do it), I always made Steel straight cut ones with a Vernier adjustment for accurate cam timing, I am sure these will be available from someone.
I do think Mike's idea is good if you have done all the painting but would go for a flange type fixing if it was a bare chassis.
Alan
In fairness, from the research I've done (and I've done A LOT) nobody has ever actually had a fibre gear failure on a Cologne. Essex engine, yes. Really common, but not on the Cologne. In fact the only person who's ever told me they've seen a failure themselves, was the chap who sold it to me....Boosted LS1 said:
OP have you got hydraulic lifters? If so I'll assume you checked the preloads. You only set them the one time, some people go round the engine several times which buggers everything up especially the clearances.
No, mechanical lifters on the 2.8. We do quite a lot of cam changes on the RV8s, and the joys of setting pre-loads phillpot said:
Going back to the noise issue I'd definitely go back to standard cam gear and, yes, Piper 270 cam is noisey!
You're the only person who's told me (other than the chap at Tickover) that the 270 is noisey! Is that a certainty, based on experience? Only reason for asking is I was planning to try leaving the cam in there, and just changing the gears.phillpot said:
Not mentioned it earlier because I took it from this quote that others, not just Tickover, had mentioned cam can be noisey?
what valve clearances are you using? think Piper recommend 0.018" inlet and 0.020" exhaust(which is 2 thou more than standard)
I've pulled mine down to 14/16 in an attempt to hush it up a bit.
Balls. what valve clearances are you using? think Piper recommend 0.018" inlet and 0.020" exhaust(which is 2 thou more than standard)
I've pulled mine down to 14/16 in an attempt to hush it up a bit.
To change the cam as well makes it an even bigger job. I might leave it in there, hook it all back up enough to test it and if the noise remains continue to swap the cam over for a used standard one I have. I can't use my original as it was re-profiled to make the BP270.
Was using standard clearances, as advised by Piper. Because it was a regrind, the BCD changed pretty dramatically, so I had to go round them all anyway. Have done them about 4 times since hoping that I've made a massive mistake somewhere!
Well, I went and did it
Had a think about designs, and I think though TVRees' layout is the best structurally, it's not possible to do a neat job of it with the engine in-situ.
So, I went this way:
50x50 square box section, exactly the same as the brace a little further in front of it, then slotted into an eyelet either end. Got the idea from the V8S and Chimaera/Griffith chassis', which use a similar design on the removable brace in front of the wishbone. On those, there are two M10 bolts either end, positioned on a diagonal plane which reduces the chances of torsional twist. I considered this, but the brace under the engine on an S doesn't deal with torsional stress - it's just a brace to keep the chassis rails tied together (and to be quite honest, when I cut it out the chassis didn't flinch! Normally, ANY section of TVR chassis you cut out results in a quiet 'twang' if you don't brace it!)
So, it'll be one fat 7/16 bolt either end and the brace will press in at the ends to keep things square. It hurt to cut my mint chassis, but I had to do it in order to remove the lower crank gear, and now I have I'm happy I made the right choice. it also hurt to weld it, literally - galvanised chassis + welder= hot lumps of molten metal up your sleeves
Gears are now swapped, sump's back on so I've decided to rig it all back up and see if the noise goes just by changing the cam gear. If it doesn't, I'll change the cam and curse the bloody thing some more, and only soften the blow slightly by flogging the alloy gear set (which I'll then know is ok and not the cause of the noise) and continue to replace the cam (if that doesn't cure it, there will be an S-shaped bonfire in Fareham that night).
if the noise does go, I'll dance around in the yard to the Art Of Noise and throw the alloy gear kit into the nearest hedge. Then I'll tell Piper what I think of their camshaft before rebuilding the car and enjoying what's left of the summer.
Time will tell....
Had a think about designs, and I think though TVRees' layout is the best structurally, it's not possible to do a neat job of it with the engine in-situ.
So, I went this way:
50x50 square box section, exactly the same as the brace a little further in front of it, then slotted into an eyelet either end. Got the idea from the V8S and Chimaera/Griffith chassis', which use a similar design on the removable brace in front of the wishbone. On those, there are two M10 bolts either end, positioned on a diagonal plane which reduces the chances of torsional twist. I considered this, but the brace under the engine on an S doesn't deal with torsional stress - it's just a brace to keep the chassis rails tied together (and to be quite honest, when I cut it out the chassis didn't flinch! Normally, ANY section of TVR chassis you cut out results in a quiet 'twang' if you don't brace it!)
So, it'll be one fat 7/16 bolt either end and the brace will press in at the ends to keep things square. It hurt to cut my mint chassis, but I had to do it in order to remove the lower crank gear, and now I have I'm happy I made the right choice. it also hurt to weld it, literally - galvanised chassis + welder= hot lumps of molten metal up your sleeves
Gears are now swapped, sump's back on so I've decided to rig it all back up and see if the noise goes just by changing the cam gear. If it doesn't, I'll change the cam and curse the bloody thing some more, and only soften the blow slightly by flogging the alloy gear set (which I'll then know is ok and not the cause of the noise) and continue to replace the cam (if that doesn't cure it, there will be an S-shaped bonfire in Fareham that night).
if the noise does go, I'll dance around in the yard to the Art Of Noise and throw the alloy gear kit into the nearest hedge. Then I'll tell Piper what I think of their camshaft before rebuilding the car and enjoying what's left of the summer.
Time will tell....
Edited by Kitchski on Monday 11th July 20:50
glenrobbo said:
Barry says that Mat Smith told him that tappets are like children:
If you can't hear them, they're up to no good!
A tappy engine is a happy engine, as they say! It's pretty sweet now though, and that's with no front end on it. Once the bonnet's back on it will be even quieter.If you can't hear them, they're up to no good!
Kushty! Glad HMS Morale is steaming full speed ahead again Richard! 
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