Engine upgrades - power and smoothness
Discussion
Hello,
I have only replaced the induction track so far with the full smooth bore ACT pipe kit.
Was reading the Kits & Classics page recently after seeing a You Tube video of a sorted Chimaera that had had lots of work done there. Seems they do a Lucas remap and upgraded trumpet bases. It mentions upgrades for teh 5.0 and the 4.0l.
I have a 450. I would like to improve the driveability mostly (have the throttle pot disconnected at the moment, which massively improved over-run smoothness but is only a temporary fix really) but would also like to get an increase in torque/bhp.
So what's the best bang for your buck at the moment ?
Improve the induction further (trumpet bases, porting, bigger AFM) ?
Improve ignition (coil packs etc) ?
ECU change (megasquirt, Lucas remap)?
Forced induction ?
I'm guessing the first three would improve driveability.
Like to hear from anyone who has the knowledge / experience with any of the above changes (or any better ones!) or knows a good garage that can discuss the options.
Cheers.
I have only replaced the induction track so far with the full smooth bore ACT pipe kit.
Was reading the Kits & Classics page recently after seeing a You Tube video of a sorted Chimaera that had had lots of work done there. Seems they do a Lucas remap and upgraded trumpet bases. It mentions upgrades for teh 5.0 and the 4.0l.
I have a 450. I would like to improve the driveability mostly (have the throttle pot disconnected at the moment, which massively improved over-run smoothness but is only a temporary fix really) but would also like to get an increase in torque/bhp.
So what's the best bang for your buck at the moment ?
Improve the induction further (trumpet bases, porting, bigger AFM) ?
Improve ignition (coil packs etc) ?
ECU change (megasquirt, Lucas remap)?
Forced induction ?
I'm guessing the first three would improve driveability.
Like to hear from anyone who has the knowledge / experience with any of the above changes (or any better ones!) or knows a good garage that can discuss the options.
Cheers.
Just spent nearly £3k on service and improvements. Oddly, that makes me feel like spending more on the car. No idea why ? It also needs a full respray as the clear coat has suddenly started failing.
So budget would be around £2k. I like fiddling with the car myself but realistically, I don't have that much time to do it.
So budget would be around £2k. I like fiddling with the car myself but realistically, I don't have that much time to do it.
900T-R said:
I'd advise to leave the fuel injection alone if it works properly - it's cleverer than most people give it credit for and if properly mapped there is little if anything to be gained with a system change that can bring its own string of loose ends to tie up - and replace the archaic ignition timing with a mapped system - either Omex ignition with a 36/2 trigger wheel and coil packs or the USB mappable 123tune 'distributor' which is essentially a replacement distributor with no changes needing to be made whatsoever - on the flipside this still runs a rotor and cap.
Interesting ideas there 900T - not heard of those systems. Are you running / have run either of these ?My Lucas system appears to be running correctly and I have fitted a brand new Land Rover AFM as the old one packed up. The only minor annoyance is the high revving issue that occassionally appeared but I have solved that by setting the stepper position manually with RG and disconnecting it. RG shows all the sensors to be within range and it never cuts out / stalls or any of the other problems. There has always been a hint of a misfire. If you hold a slightly higher rev, you can hear the odd slight drop in revs but never been able to trace the cause.
When you say get the Lucas system properly mapped, do you mean get the ECU chip replaced for a programmable one. If yes, what options would you recommend / have tried successfully ?
Edited by taylormj4 on Monday 23 May 15:04
Dominic TVRetto said:
...does this not sound like the engine might not be working as it should be - and it might be an idea to get this issue fixed and see if there is a noticeable change in character/performance first..?
If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
Agreed, something is not right but I had thought this must be an inherent problem with the Lucas system that would be rectified by changing to a different ECU chip. Using Rovergauge software, I can see that all the sensors are working. I can take the TPS through its full range and see there are no open circuit spots or other problems. I can step the stepper motor throughout its range manually and all OK / not sticking. The target idle is correct and the speed sensor is working. So unless there is something that RG does not read that is upsetting things, I can't find a fault that would cause the high idle.If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
The car has just been in for a service at a well know TVR centre and I mentioned the stepper was disconnected. However I had already tried all the tests and tricks they suggested could resolve the problem and they didn't have Rovergauge.
I agree with your point, if it is a fault it should be fixed first but I am struggling to find anything else that it could be that hasn't been checked and I am not into replacing parts randomnly to see if it resolves.
N7GTX said:
If you still have the plug extenders fitted, now would be a good time to get rid of them. They cause a lot of poor running. Replace with quality leads and fit heat socks to keep them safe from the exhaust manifold heat.
No, got rid of the horrible things several years back when the socks idea first came up on the forums.Have Bosch leads protected by thermal socks and have added lots of lead separators to keep all the leads well separated and away from any metal engine parts that could cause accelerated insulation break down.
900T-R said:
Mark Adams and Jools (Kits and Classics) do 'live' CUX14 remaps on the rolling road.
In addition, when booking a rolling road session with either is proving impractical due to location/time constraints, Mark Adams can make you a 'generic' chip based on your car's engine spec (with the addition of an uprated fuel pressure regulated in some cases, like 500s that tend to need a higher fuel pressure before they can be mapped correctly at the top end) that will be bang on most of times in my experience, as the fuel requirements of the RV8 are actually quite relaxed. I have several customers with a chip/induction package from ACT (with Mark Adams chips), all are running well and make good numbers on the rolling road, but if it is not quite right you return the rolling road results (power/torque and air/fuel ratio graphs) to him and he'll get you a new map free of charge.
I'm running the USB mappable 123tune distributor from 123ignition, it's a nicely made piece that does what it says on the tin and with half an hour's worth of rolling road mapping on the lap top with the provided software, my 4.3 got 20+ extra bhp everywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 rpm (which was all we measured), where with the mechanical distributor the engine peaked at 274 hp @5,500 rpm (dropping back to 260 hp @6,000) it made 300 hp @ 6,000 with the mapped ignition.
Interesting stuff thanks - not hear of 123tune. Will look into that. Does the increase at the top end revs come at the loss of low down torque? I am keener on low down off-the-line grunt as that's the range I use the car in more. The roads I drive on offer short blips between corners so I don't get to get the revs up in the higher 1000s very often.In addition, when booking a rolling road session with either is proving impractical due to location/time constraints, Mark Adams can make you a 'generic' chip based on your car's engine spec (with the addition of an uprated fuel pressure regulated in some cases, like 500s that tend to need a higher fuel pressure before they can be mapped correctly at the top end) that will be bang on most of times in my experience, as the fuel requirements of the RV8 are actually quite relaxed. I have several customers with a chip/induction package from ACT (with Mark Adams chips), all are running well and make good numbers on the rolling road, but if it is not quite right you return the rolling road results (power/torque and air/fuel ratio graphs) to him and he'll get you a new map free of charge.
I'm running the USB mappable 123tune distributor from 123ignition, it's a nicely made piece that does what it says on the tin and with half an hour's worth of rolling road mapping on the lap top with the provided software, my 4.3 got 20+ extra bhp everywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 rpm (which was all we measured), where with the mechanical distributor the engine peaked at 274 hp @5,500 rpm (dropping back to 260 hp @6,000) it made 300 hp @ 6,000 with the mapped ignition.
davep said:
Totally agree with this advice.
Also, running 14CUX with a disconnected TPS causes the fuelling control firmware to use a fixed 'get you home' default value (576 mV) for the throttle position, as a result of this important features such as acceleration enhancement and deceleration fuel cut-off are disabled. If fuelling during over-run is erratic try swapping out the TPS for a known good one. The firmware puts a lot of effort into working out the direction and rate of throttle plate travel and whether it is closed or not (for stepper motor control) so it is worth having the TPS enabled.
Ah. Thanks Dave. My original post was completely incorrect. It's the stepper motor that I have disconnected not the TPS. Sorry everyone. Now your posts make more sense. Of course, disconnecting the TPS would cause all sorts of issues and yes would definitely need fixing. Oops. What a div !Also, running 14CUX with a disconnected TPS causes the fuelling control firmware to use a fixed 'get you home' default value (576 mV) for the throttle position, as a result of this important features such as acceleration enhancement and deceleration fuel cut-off are disabled. If fuelling during over-run is erratic try swapping out the TPS for a known good one. The firmware puts a lot of effort into working out the direction and rate of throttle plate travel and whether it is closed or not (for stepper motor control) so it is worth having the TPS enabled.
Yex 450 said:
OP, I'm moving along the same path to a degree. At my last service I was told that my camshaft has 3 worn lobes, 2 of them quite badly. Discussing options with Dan Taylor who looks after my car I am going to have a new 885 camshaft fitted along with ported heads at the same time. We have discussed what sized porting to a degree but not agreed on anything as yet as I wasn't too sure what I was going to do next. However, I am eventually going to get Dom and his team to put an MBE system on the car so would anticipate that porting everything out to 45mm, adding a 72mm plenum and appropriate trumpets would be a good idea ahead of the MBE install.
Before I kick off the work I put the car on a set of rollers and it came out with 245.5BHP and 260LBS of torque in it's current form, which is standard apart from a smooth bore elbow. Once I've had Dan fit the new camshaft and heads etc. I'll put the car on the same set of rollers again and see what my £££'s have bought me and I'll also have a new set of numbers from Dom's RR once he has fitted the MBE system. A picture of an investment and what it gets you so to speak
If you can wait until late June for the first bit to be done you may get an idea of that you get for your money.
Thanks Yex. Sounds like someone is looking after you there and interested in your car. I must say I would like to get my car looked after by somewhere like that and really knows their stuff. I tried several of the known TVR garages over the years and haven't found anywhere that I have been happy with yet sadly. Where is Dom based if you recommend him ?Before I kick off the work I put the car on a set of rollers and it came out with 245.5BHP and 260LBS of torque in it's current form, which is standard apart from a smooth bore elbow. Once I've had Dan fit the new camshaft and heads etc. I'll put the car on the same set of rollers again and see what my £££'s have bought me and I'll also have a new set of numbers from Dom's RR once he has fitted the MBE system. A picture of an investment and what it gets you so to speak
If you can wait until late June for the first bit to be done you may get an idea of that you get for your money.
I should have added to earlier post that I had a RR session at Southways nearly 3 years ago after they did a chassis refurb for me and from memory, I think I was up at around 270bhp, which seemed correct for a 450, so engine and management can't be far off.
The shunting thing is the main thing I would like to get rid of, that's what I meant by smoothness. So I could drive at a constant speed at 30mph without the tiresome shunt and get a smooth overrun with the stepper reconnected.
Only downside I have found to disconnecting the stepper is having to manually hold a high idle for 30secs on cold start up in the winter, so not a big problem.
Once the shunt was sorted, then I'd like to explore increases to low down torque.
Sounds like ignition and ECU are the way forward. I asked about inlet tracts as I had heard mention that the clearances and trumpet layout in the plenum could be one of the causes of shunting.
Kits and Classics seem to offer a Lucas remap service for £250, seems a good starting point ?
Anyone used anyone else that they would recommend ?
The shunting thing is the main thing I would like to get rid of, that's what I meant by smoothness. So I could drive at a constant speed at 30mph without the tiresome shunt and get a smooth overrun with the stepper reconnected.
Only downside I have found to disconnecting the stepper is having to manually hold a high idle for 30secs on cold start up in the winter, so not a big problem.
Once the shunt was sorted, then I'd like to explore increases to low down torque.
Sounds like ignition and ECU are the way forward. I asked about inlet tracts as I had heard mention that the clearances and trumpet layout in the plenum could be one of the causes of shunting.
Kits and Classics seem to offer a Lucas remap service for £250, seems a good starting point ?
Anyone used anyone else that they would recommend ?
blitzracing said:
RoverGauge should identify the high idle condition, as it gives a value for the target idle that will change depending on if the car is moving or engine temp- so first thing check the target idle and see if it matches the actual idle. Assuming they do, but the target idle is too high, this can be a badly adjusted throttle pot, or wrong speed input from the TVR speedo calibration unit, making it look like the cars moving when its not. This can be seen by a speed reading on RoverGauge when the car is stationary.
As for the ignition timing- that's an interesting one. I assume TVR did not go to the effort of modifying the bob weight to maximise the advance for a light weight car like the TVR, not a 2 tonne RangeRover that has very conservative timing to keep everything safe. From memory the stock dizzy runs about 28' of peak advance, where as the 3.9 can take 34' peak. If you take a stock dizzy and set it on peak advance, you end up with too much static advance in the process, so Im assuming BHP increase with the 123 comes from maximising the advance. You can do the same thing by filing the bob weight stops with the aid of a protractor to increase the peak advance on the stock dizzy, but you simply add few degrees of degrees to the top of the stock timing advance advance as the RPM rises-. Messing around with the springs to change the rate of advance is a whole different ball game as you have to strip the dizzy each time you make a change before doing a power check, and best not attempted as mapped ignition is easily available.
As for mapping the 14CUX, id avoid anything that is a "best guess" map Ive seen some pretty bad results, but the problem is you pay a lot of money for one, then you cant actually measure what its doing easily. On catalysts cars good mapping will keep the lambda trim to a minimum, and then add enough fuel to get peak power above 3400 rpm when the ECU goes open loop. As the car is constantly trimming the mixture below 3400rpm , you cant easily see if the best guess map is any good at all as the ECU covers up any errors. The TVR mapping tends to run a bit rich at just over peak RPM, (due to reduced volumetric efficiency and keeping the injector pulse at max) so the power drops off a bit faster than needed- so can gain a fraction by reducing the fuel, but you reduce the safety margins in the process and its only a few hundred RPM where you should not be holding an RV8 engine anyway.
You have much more scope if you don't have catalyst, and can run the green map, then you can tweak the mixture to your hearts content to get the best power / economy and race car pops and bangs on the overrun, but MOT time could cause a problem. Assuming your 14CUX is working OK in the first place, a trip to kits and classics could maximise the mapping for a fraction of the cost of a new ECU.
Hi Mark,As for the ignition timing- that's an interesting one. I assume TVR did not go to the effort of modifying the bob weight to maximise the advance for a light weight car like the TVR, not a 2 tonne RangeRover that has very conservative timing to keep everything safe. From memory the stock dizzy runs about 28' of peak advance, where as the 3.9 can take 34' peak. If you take a stock dizzy and set it on peak advance, you end up with too much static advance in the process, so Im assuming BHP increase with the 123 comes from maximising the advance. You can do the same thing by filing the bob weight stops with the aid of a protractor to increase the peak advance on the stock dizzy, but you simply add few degrees of degrees to the top of the stock timing advance advance as the RPM rises-. Messing around with the springs to change the rate of advance is a whole different ball game as you have to strip the dizzy each time you make a change before doing a power check, and best not attempted as mapped ignition is easily available.
As for mapping the 14CUX, id avoid anything that is a "best guess" map Ive seen some pretty bad results, but the problem is you pay a lot of money for one, then you cant actually measure what its doing easily. On catalysts cars good mapping will keep the lambda trim to a minimum, and then add enough fuel to get peak power above 3400 rpm when the ECU goes open loop. As the car is constantly trimming the mixture below 3400rpm , you cant easily see if the best guess map is any good at all as the ECU covers up any errors. The TVR mapping tends to run a bit rich at just over peak RPM, (due to reduced volumetric efficiency and keeping the injector pulse at max) so the power drops off a bit faster than needed- so can gain a fraction by reducing the fuel, but you reduce the safety margins in the process and its only a few hundred RPM where you should not be holding an RV8 engine anyway.
You have much more scope if you don't have catalyst, and can run the green map, then you can tweak the mixture to your hearts content to get the best power / economy and race car pops and bangs on the overrun, but MOT time could cause a problem. Assuming your 14CUX is working OK in the first place, a trip to kits and classics could maximise the mapping for a fraction of the cost of a new ECU.
I have kept an eye on the target idle and it always seems to be correct. The road speed appears to be correct to and stopping the car is the one thing that brings the idle back down. However, drive off and the high rev appears again. At it's worst it was trying for 1800rpm so teh car would drive itself along and you would be braking against the engine to maintain 30mph and no overrun braking to be had.
My car is a 1997 catalyst and the TPS is the non-slotted design. I tried slotting and adjusting the TPS to get the right voltage at idle but then was told that this is pointless as the ECU learns the TPS voltage at idle so no point in adjusting it. Is that correct ?
The one thing that seemed to make the difference was resetting the base idle but I think that may have been a fluke as it later came back and no base idle setting would cure it.
QBee said:
Get Jools @ Kits and Classics to sort it out. He knows what he is doing, can remap the 14 CUX, and has his own rolling road, for which he seems to forget to charge (when I had my 14 CUX first re-mapped by Mark Adams, 65% of the cost was hiring the RR he uses in Shrewsbury). I realise Chesterfield is a bit of a drive from South Wayels, as I did Newark - Newport - Newark on Sunday, so best let the train take the strain and leave the car with him for a few days.
And once it is running properly, if your wallet needs to go on a diet I am sure he will oblige with an Emerald installation for you, but as said above, get it running properly first.
If you want to know what a 450 running a TVR Power MBE system feels like, (and see a thoroughly well sorted Chim at the same time) contact Classichimi through the forums - that's what he has, he lives in Rugby, and is a decent chap. Never stops talking, which seems to be a TVR trait....of which i am as guilty myself
Thanks QBee. Does the Emerald system use much of the original Lucas set up (sensors, AFM etc) or is a complete swap out. If the latter, I'm just wondering if the work to get the Lucas system would be wasted if you are going to swap ?And once it is running properly, if your wallet needs to go on a diet I am sure he will oblige with an Emerald installation for you, but as said above, get it running properly first.
If you want to know what a 450 running a TVR Power MBE system feels like, (and see a thoroughly well sorted Chim at the same time) contact Classichimi through the forums - that's what he has, he lives in Rugby, and is a decent chap. Never stops talking, which seems to be a TVR trait....of which i am as guilty myself
Just spoke with Jools at Kits & Classics: lovely guy, clearly very enthusiastic about what he does and credit to the chap he was really honest about the Lucas remap and its chances of curing the shunting. If my engine was running badly and/or I was after more power, that would be the way to go but curing shunting is still a pretty difficult thing to sort and not a consistent reason for it across cars.
He did mention some interesting ideas that I have not heard of before such as trying a run with no vacuum advance, altering the position of the plenum take-off for the vacuum and fiddling with the dizzy position.
So looks like I'll have to live with the shunting and then maybe see Jools or TVR Power if I want to extract a bit more power but as Jools said, as I've already done the full ACT inlet install, I'm looking at high £1000s to get significant power increases, i.e. over say another 25hp extra.
Apparently, the 450s are a bit variable anyhow. Some have 38mm bases, some have 45, some have ported heads, some don't. Think I'll have to strip mine down and have a look - quite intrigued now to see what I have.
For now, I'm going to keep an eye on the engine more closely with RG and see if I can catch it when the idle is high and find out what's going on there.
He did mention some interesting ideas that I have not heard of before such as trying a run with no vacuum advance, altering the position of the plenum take-off for the vacuum and fiddling with the dizzy position.
So looks like I'll have to live with the shunting and then maybe see Jools or TVR Power if I want to extract a bit more power but as Jools said, as I've already done the full ACT inlet install, I'm looking at high £1000s to get significant power increases, i.e. over say another 25hp extra.
Apparently, the 450s are a bit variable anyhow. Some have 38mm bases, some have 45, some have ported heads, some don't. Think I'll have to strip mine down and have a look - quite intrigued now to see what I have.
For now, I'm going to keep an eye on the engine more closely with RG and see if I can catch it when the idle is high and find out what's going on there.
blitzracing said:
So are you saying the target idle is 1800 rpm when the car is moving? Id think 1200 rpm would be more like it. The throttle pot does not need adjusting as long as its the the range shown on the RoverGauge documentation with the throttle shut- it has to be less than 10%. If the base idle is correct, the stepper motor is about 30%- 50% open on a warm engine at idle. If there is too much air going in it will be nearer fully closed (0 end), as its trying to restrict the air more than it should to control the idle speed.
Steve Heaths ECUmate manual covers the idle control in depth- page 38 onwards.
http://ecumate.com/docs/Ecumate%20inst.pdf
Sorry, badly worded...no, the target idle is always correct when I have looked at it on RG. Starts higher around 1150 on cold start and then comes down to under 1000. Typically the high idle problem occurs when I am not at home and cannot connect RG. Whenever I have used RG, the target idle is always correct. Guess I need to start carrying the laptop around with me so I can get on it when the idle rockets. TPS and stepper positions are within the ranges you have previously advise me of.Steve Heaths ECUmate manual covers the idle control in depth- page 38 onwards.
http://ecumate.com/docs/Ecumate%20inst.pdf
One quick question on RG whilst you're on....how do I find the latest version and update ?
Found these:
https://github.com/colinbourassa/rovergauge/releas...
https://github.com/colinbourassa/libcomm14cux/rele...
Do you have uninstall and reinstall ?
davep said:
Might be 'this is how you suck eggs' but set up RG with the faster diagnostic interface option and select the critical outputs only prior to doing a detailed data logging session. During the test run make a mental note of the time when the idle glitch occurred and concentrate on this specific time frame when analysing the log file results in Excel. Select the area where the glitch occurs and use Create Line Chart to get high resolution line graphs to compare all selected outputs at that specific instance in time.
I think I need to upgrade my RG. It's been quite a while since I downloaded it so it doesn't have the above functionality. SOunds good. I wasn't aware it could do what you describe.Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff