Speeding Advice
Discussion
Drove 600kms Kalbarri to Perth yesterday and 5kms from home, where the 110kmh single lane goes into a 90kmh dual carrigeway (no I don't understand that either) some crazy bloke with what looked like a gun ran into the middle of my lane and stood there with his hand up.
After being beckoned off the road he shows me a hand held radar of 111kmh and gives me a ticket for $250 and 6 demerit points (double points over Easter - not that it was over Easter yet though).
I'm rather anoyed at this - have a clean license at the moment and wish to contest this on principle, the principle being they should bugger off and leave me alone and do some real policing.
Any advice ?
Insufficient signage in speed limit reduction ?
Calibration of radar gun (I saw him as soon as I came round a corner about 500m away, braked hard immediately, glanced at the speedo which was 95 and dropping, he was already out in the road - must have had 1 second to get a bead on me, maybe he'as also a marksman)?
Any options ?
After being beckoned off the road he shows me a hand held radar of 111kmh and gives me a ticket for $250 and 6 demerit points (double points over Easter - not that it was over Easter yet though).
I'm rather anoyed at this - have a clean license at the moment and wish to contest this on principle, the principle being they should bugger off and leave me alone and do some real policing.
Any advice ?
Insufficient signage in speed limit reduction ?
Calibration of radar gun (I saw him as soon as I came round a corner about 500m away, braked hard immediately, glanced at the speedo which was 95 and dropping, he was already out in the road - must have had 1 second to get a bead on me, maybe he'as also a marksman)?
Any options ?
Colonial said:
How long between the change in speed zones to when you got booked?
Just been back up the road and seems I was badly mistaken - it's 90 for about 10kms with at least 6 signs so there goes that excuse.
I guess in a way I was lucky because I had been travelling much much quicker earlier on the trip albeit on good roads with good visibility in a capable car with no other traffic around in the middle of nowhere.
Still annoyed yet and still toying with the idea of taking it too court even if only to argue that it's rather harsh.
ozzie dave said:
Check the cop is "certified" for the use of the gun, and check the gun was properly calibrated, this would have to be in court but they DO make mistakes and hope they are not chalenged.
How do I do this - do I just opt for court and when 6 mths later they give me the date turn up and ask whether the guy is certified and the gun was calibrated ? What if they just answer yes or will it mean an adjournment till they can come back with the relevant info ? Can I query this in writing before the court date ?
deviant said:
I always thought that cameras or hand held radar doobies had to be a certain distance from a change in the speed limit?
I would be questioning his ability to get a bead on you and take an accurate measurement if he was near a corner....did he get you in the few seconds he had from when you turned the corner? Or did he get you from an odd angle before the corner in which case the fine cant stick as he didnt use the radar properly.
I am sick of the super strict speed limits here...sometimes you need to accelerate beyond the speed limit to put yourself in a safe position on the road (normally to get past the person that just dawdled onto the highway doing 65) but the popo dont seem to care...
I would be questioning his ability to get a bead on you and take an accurate measurement if he was near a corner....did he get you in the few seconds he had from when you turned the corner? Or did he get you from an odd angle before the corner in which case the fine cant stick as he didnt use the radar properly.
I am sick of the super strict speed limits here...sometimes you need to accelerate beyond the speed limit to put yourself in a safe position on the road (normally to get past the person that just dawdled onto the highway doing 65) but the popo dont seem to care...
There is a slight lh corner going over the crest of a hill. I was overtaking a car and in the rh lane and the copper was on the left of the road 300 metres distant. I saw him immediately and hit the brakes and he almost immediately walked into the road. The crest is unsighted so he could have only got me the instant I appeared over the hill.
When pulled over he said the first reading was 114 and the second 111 whish is what he was giving me a ticket for.
I seriously doubt that he had time to get one reading let alone two but my word against his - although I did have others in the car.
How do I go about questioning whether or not he did get me - after all as someone said the reading could have been from any car in which case what can you do ?
Once in the UK coming out of London I was followed by cops and as I knew they were behind me I stuck exactly to the limit. With a mile to go before the Mway entrance they dropped back - then sped up to way past the limit, slowed, pulled behind and pulled me over. Showed me the in car speed thingy at way over the limit and gave me a ticket, and that's the truth. Just paid it as couldn't be bothered going to the magistrates in London.
I intend to take a stand on this and as such have written to the Infringement Office, as advised to do when I queried what the process was, stating that the officer didn't have time to get a reading, that I was too far away anyway, was he qualified to use it and was it calibrated as I was only travelling at 100km/h - still over the limit but because of a downhill incline and trying to complete an overtaking manouvre safely without getting in the way of other drivers.
I also questioned the safety of pulling someone over to the grass and trees on a median strip between high speed dual carriageways (well they seem to think it's high speed), not giving me the opportunity to explain the circumstances or query the reading, sending me out into the outside lane after giving me the ticket with no protection from oncoming vehicles and the advisability in general of having police officers walk into the middle of a high speed dual carriageway to flag down "speeding" drivers.
Apparently they will investigate and get back to me prior to me having to decide whether to contest in court or pay the fine.
I have just received notification that they will write to me soon for a court date for another outstanding infringement I have. Early December, pulled at 112 on the freeway by an unmarked car. Idiot Officer gave me the choice of taking the speeding (1 point $100) or failing to move over (2 points $50). I knew I had no chance on the speeding so took the failing to move over - this is not failing to pull over for a police car, just failing to move into an inside lane. I stated at the time that I was in the middle lane and he must have written his notes up on top of the ticket because it has come through on the carbon copy - driver stated was in the middle lane as an excuse.
Checked the law next day and there is no offence for driving at the speed limit in the middle lane of a three lane freeway - offence is if you stay in the outside lane. Elected for court which has now taken 5 months for me to be sent a letter telling me they will send another letter when a court date has been arranged.
This delay may be useful for some drivers as the demerit points only apply at the point the matter is dealt with by a court or the fine paid. If you are sitting on 10 and pick up a 3 point fine but are due to have some points drop off within 6 months just elect to challenge in court and string it out - may save losing your license.
I also questioned the safety of pulling someone over to the grass and trees on a median strip between high speed dual carriageways (well they seem to think it's high speed), not giving me the opportunity to explain the circumstances or query the reading, sending me out into the outside lane after giving me the ticket with no protection from oncoming vehicles and the advisability in general of having police officers walk into the middle of a high speed dual carriageway to flag down "speeding" drivers.
Apparently they will investigate and get back to me prior to me having to decide whether to contest in court or pay the fine.
I have just received notification that they will write to me soon for a court date for another outstanding infringement I have. Early December, pulled at 112 on the freeway by an unmarked car. Idiot Officer gave me the choice of taking the speeding (1 point $100) or failing to move over (2 points $50). I knew I had no chance on the speeding so took the failing to move over - this is not failing to pull over for a police car, just failing to move into an inside lane. I stated at the time that I was in the middle lane and he must have written his notes up on top of the ticket because it has come through on the carbon copy - driver stated was in the middle lane as an excuse.
Checked the law next day and there is no offence for driving at the speed limit in the middle lane of a three lane freeway - offence is if you stay in the outside lane. Elected for court which has now taken 5 months for me to be sent a letter telling me they will send another letter when a court date has been arranged.
This delay may be useful for some drivers as the demerit points only apply at the point the matter is dealt with by a court or the fine paid. If you are sitting on 10 and pick up a 3 point fine but are due to have some points drop off within 6 months just elect to challenge in court and string it out - may save losing your license.
Hi Nick,
I know what you are saying - I've never been troubled in the TVR nor any of the other cars I have used regularly until I took the company option and now have a Hyundai Sonata V6. Clean license up until that point but driving back from Kalbarri was a case in point - I found driving at 90 my attention was wandering whereas slightly quicker I was actually focussed on what I was doing.
Obviously it was avoidable, they always are, my point being that they shouldn't have to be. On an almost daily basis I put up with idiots doing doughnuts through my "quiet" suburb, see examples of what to me should be license removing behaviour on these major arterial roads and yet never, ever see a police presence. If the measures that were taken genuinely reduced danger to other road users, pedestrians and property then I would be behind them 100% - as I am reduced limits in suburban areas. But they aren't.
Amongst other things I run a vehicle fleet at work with 120 cars and therefore receive both insurance claims and traffic infringements for all drivers. Those that I know are good safe drivers occasionally get speeding infringements, those that I know are bad drivers regularly submit insurance claims, some of which involve injury.
I know which group should be under pressure from road safety advocates and I know which group is actually under pressure on the roads and somewhere it's all going badly wrong.
Off my soapbox now - hopefully see you Sunday at the British Car Day - I imagine we can play spot the speed camera on the way as they will be out in force.
Regards
PS By police presence I don't mean cameras, I refer to actual police in cars or on bikes using common sense to pull people who shouldn't be allowed to own a car.
I know what you are saying - I've never been troubled in the TVR nor any of the other cars I have used regularly until I took the company option and now have a Hyundai Sonata V6. Clean license up until that point but driving back from Kalbarri was a case in point - I found driving at 90 my attention was wandering whereas slightly quicker I was actually focussed on what I was doing.
Obviously it was avoidable, they always are, my point being that they shouldn't have to be. On an almost daily basis I put up with idiots doing doughnuts through my "quiet" suburb, see examples of what to me should be license removing behaviour on these major arterial roads and yet never, ever see a police presence. If the measures that were taken genuinely reduced danger to other road users, pedestrians and property then I would be behind them 100% - as I am reduced limits in suburban areas. But they aren't.
Amongst other things I run a vehicle fleet at work with 120 cars and therefore receive both insurance claims and traffic infringements for all drivers. Those that I know are good safe drivers occasionally get speeding infringements, those that I know are bad drivers regularly submit insurance claims, some of which involve injury.
I know which group should be under pressure from road safety advocates and I know which group is actually under pressure on the roads and somewhere it's all going badly wrong.
Off my soapbox now - hopefully see you Sunday at the British Car Day - I imagine we can play spot the speed camera on the way as they will be out in force.
Regards
PS By police presence I don't mean cameras, I refer to actual police in cars or on bikes using common sense to pull people who shouldn't be allowed to own a car.
Edited by chunder on Friday 18th May 02:16
British Car Day at Gingin - 3rd Sunday in May every year. Good turnout this year as well, especially TVR with 6 there including an 03 Tuscan which generated a lot of interest.
Was a great run there, 3 cars with 13.5 litres and some 1000hp between them, all trundling along clear roads in rural areas at 90kmh.
Was a great run there, 3 cars with 13.5 litres and some 1000hp between them, all trundling along clear roads in rural areas at 90kmh.
Pasco said:
Yep put me off coming over to tell you the struth !!
Any new's Chunder ?
I received a final demand with a further $13 fine !Any new's Chunder ?
I queried this as I hadn't had my queries answered and was told the final demand was the answer - that the copper had responded to my queries by stating that the fine still stood.
I told them this was unacceptable, that I needed ANSWERS to my queries before I knew whether to pay the fine or go to court and in the end they agreed, have put the fine on hold pending a written response to my queries.
I have the other one in court on 21st Aug where I was fined $50 and 2 points for failing to move over from the right hand lane when I had the opportunity - even though I was in the middle lane and it actually states that on the ticket I was given as the coppers notes came through on the carbon copy. He has now issued a statement which says that I offered no defebce at the time, whilst on the carbon in his handwriting it says sriver stated he was in the middle lane. This is perjury and I am currently in the process of giving him the opportunity to drop the infringement.
Will let you know how I go on both counts - I don't fancy sitting on 8 points for 3 years.
Pasco said:
Any news for us Chunder ?
Hi - 21st August is the court date for this one.As far as I am aware the rules that were in place at the time (offence was Dec 17th 2006) state that it is an offence to drive in the right hand lane of a freeway where there is sufficient room for you to move left.
I was in the middle lane so it wasn't an offence.
Proving it is the hard part (although I do have the copper's handwritten notes on my carbon copy of the ticket - "driver stated was in middle lane" -even though his subsequent statement for the court case says that the driver did not give a valid defence at the time).
Will let you know how I go - assuming I will have internet access after the court appearance. The way the law is heading I fear hanging.
Edited by chunder on Monday 30th July 16:08
Ok - on the 21st (for the driving in the rh lane - even though I was in the middle) I attended as per the paperwork. I won't go into all the details but the ensuing farce meant I walked out, was found guilty in my absence, got the decision subsequently overturned because of the wrong advice I was given by the Court clerk and now have a new date of 21st Sept -which I have already pleaded not guilty to in writing so will await a date for the actual case to be heard.
The long story is mildly amusing, I just don't have enough time to go through it. The process is a complete farce though.
For the speeding that was the original reason for posting it was all put on hold until the police investigated my queries. They have now come back to me in writing and also phoned me at work the day I received the letter.
Went something like this - having investigated all of the issues raised we believe the case still stands and the Sergeant has indicated he wishes it to proceed to court. HOWEVER, we did find a MINOR administrative error and with the type of radar gun used the reading should have been reduced by 2kmh whereas the Sergeant only reduced it by 1kmh. This took the offence down to the next bracket i.e. 2 points less and $100 less and a new infringement notice has been sent out.
Whilst I didn't get it completely thrown out or receive a point by point response to the issues I raised I'm going to cut my losses on this one and consider it a small win.
I just wonder how many more drivers are out there having been issued tickets incorrectly and where that 1kmh difference takes it below the offence threshold or down to a lesser level ?
Maybe the police should look back through all the tickets issued by this Sergeant using the same radar gun - do you reckon I should ask them to do that or maybe ask the West Australian to put a little notice in their motoring section asking people to write in if they have a ticket from Sergeant # ?
The long story is mildly amusing, I just don't have enough time to go through it. The process is a complete farce though.
For the speeding that was the original reason for posting it was all put on hold until the police investigated my queries. They have now come back to me in writing and also phoned me at work the day I received the letter.
Went something like this - having investigated all of the issues raised we believe the case still stands and the Sergeant has indicated he wishes it to proceed to court. HOWEVER, we did find a MINOR administrative error and with the type of radar gun used the reading should have been reduced by 2kmh whereas the Sergeant only reduced it by 1kmh. This took the offence down to the next bracket i.e. 2 points less and $100 less and a new infringement notice has been sent out.
Whilst I didn't get it completely thrown out or receive a point by point response to the issues I raised I'm going to cut my losses on this one and consider it a small win.
I just wonder how many more drivers are out there having been issued tickets incorrectly and where that 1kmh difference takes it below the offence threshold or down to a lesser level ?
Maybe the police should look back through all the tickets issued by this Sergeant using the same radar gun - do you reckon I should ask them to do that or maybe ask the West Australian to put a little notice in their motoring section asking people to write in if they have a ticket from Sergeant # ?
Jader,
Query it - the law is an ass but exists to protect the majority of the public. If the majority of the public query it or disagree then eventually it will change.
Have you been given an opportunity recently to check the accuracy of your speedo - well advertised points on major roads with auto radar and a big sign showing the speed you were doing ?
If not how the hell can anyone tell whether the car they just bought is accurate especially if they were travelling same speed or slower than surrounding traffic. When I had to take my import over the pits it failed for a whole heap of crap - sidelights too bright - had to change 10W bulbs to 5 W bulbs amongst other things. Never checked the accuracy of the speedo though.
By querying it the worse is the delay will give you a chance to save up for the fine !
Good luck.
Query it - the law is an ass but exists to protect the majority of the public. If the majority of the public query it or disagree then eventually it will change.
Have you been given an opportunity recently to check the accuracy of your speedo - well advertised points on major roads with auto radar and a big sign showing the speed you were doing ?
If not how the hell can anyone tell whether the car they just bought is accurate especially if they were travelling same speed or slower than surrounding traffic. When I had to take my import over the pits it failed for a whole heap of crap - sidelights too bright - had to change 10W bulbs to 5 W bulbs amongst other things. Never checked the accuracy of the speedo though.
By querying it the worse is the delay will give you a chance to save up for the fine !
Good luck.
Pasco said:
Pasco said:
Pasco said:
Any news for us Chunder ?
How did it go Chunder Fingers Crossed for you 
Pasco
On the failing to move to the middle lane (although I was in the middle lane) I pleaded not guilty by post by the prescribed time back in Sept. I was told I would hear back within a few weeks with a court date for the hearing.
Not sure what has happened as I haven't heard a squeak.
I have a nagging suspicion it may have been put into the too hard basket, especially as I put down the details regarding the carbon copy etc on the affadavit I had to submit to get the original decision overturned.
Overall then -
Speeding - reduced due to operator error
Lane offence - 12 mths later and no idea so assume dropped
Actually had a call from the Prosecution service telling me I didn't need to turn up for my Jan 4th court appearance.
Not that I have even had notification of a court appearance, and I am still at the same address !
Anyway, I don't need to turn up because the police have dropped the charge, no reason, prosecution assume lack of evidence, I assume too hard and the fact I wasn't in the rh lane and can (kind of) prove it.
Drive responsibly but have fun and fight any pure revenue raisers !
Not that I have even had notification of a court appearance, and I am still at the same address !
Anyway, I don't need to turn up because the police have dropped the charge, no reason, prosecution assume lack of evidence, I assume too hard and the fact I wasn't in the rh lane and can (kind of) prove it.
Drive responsibly but have fun and fight any pure revenue raisers !
I should now change the title of this thread to stopping advice.
Followed my neighbour (middle aged female with kids in a station wagon) down the road, past the park in Edgewater to the T junction on Joondalup Drive, if anyone knows it.
We can clearly see 200 metres down the road to the next set of lights, everythings stopped, nothing on the road between us and the lights so we both turn onto the road to be confronted by the highway patrol waving at us to get off the road.
So I drive up the 2ft kerb thinking it's a random stop (I was stopped the day before driving back from Kalgoorlie - 600kms of dead straight boredom and I get pulled over in a small town for a RBT. As soon as I wound the window a breathalyser is shoved in and a voice says blow in this, no explanation or preamble. Of course I hadn't been drinking so assume blew clear although nothing was said other than remove the tube and wait and someone to take down your details. A policewoman walked up after a few minutes and asked whether she could take my details - I asked why they were required and apparently it was just name and drivers license no to prove I had a WA license. I gave her the tube back and asked her to dispose of it. The other annoying thing was that I heard her shout to the bloke after he had tested me not to pull anyone else over as they had now reached their quota.).
Traffic cop approaches and as I think it's only a random I ask whether I can go as I was late for work and desperate for fuel - I pointed out the empty gauge and warning light. He says no and that I just went through a stop sign without stopping and goes off to write out tickets for both cars. When he comes back and explains 3 points and $150 fine my wife had to restrain me.
The cop disagreed that it was a complete farce as apparently an accident had occurred recently when someone did an illegal U turn in front of the junction and someone went through the stop sign without stopping and hit them, hence why they were clamping down at that junction. He said a stop sign was like a red traffic light and did I make a habit of going through those, luckily I have had anger management training. Maybe they should put traffic lights there if they want people to stop, they seem to put them everywhere else, a set went in at a junction only round the corner recently as it was identified under the federal blackspot campaign - since installed I have seen 3 write offs and at least 10 smaller incidents with light poles needing replacing half a dozen times - never saw a single problem before it was listed a blackspot and had lights installed. Now you have to dodge the broken glass every time you go through the junction.
So now, instead of using my judgement when approaching this T junction, I am supposed to stop even if clear and then pull away. I refuse to do this on safety grounds as I can guarantee if I did that 10 times on one occasion someone is going to go up my arse.
That and the fact that the WA drive safe book lists the offence as "failure to stop and give way at a stop sign", which I didn't, as there was nothing to give way to, will form my defense on this one.
Followed my neighbour (middle aged female with kids in a station wagon) down the road, past the park in Edgewater to the T junction on Joondalup Drive, if anyone knows it.
We can clearly see 200 metres down the road to the next set of lights, everythings stopped, nothing on the road between us and the lights so we both turn onto the road to be confronted by the highway patrol waving at us to get off the road.
So I drive up the 2ft kerb thinking it's a random stop (I was stopped the day before driving back from Kalgoorlie - 600kms of dead straight boredom and I get pulled over in a small town for a RBT. As soon as I wound the window a breathalyser is shoved in and a voice says blow in this, no explanation or preamble. Of course I hadn't been drinking so assume blew clear although nothing was said other than remove the tube and wait and someone to take down your details. A policewoman walked up after a few minutes and asked whether she could take my details - I asked why they were required and apparently it was just name and drivers license no to prove I had a WA license. I gave her the tube back and asked her to dispose of it. The other annoying thing was that I heard her shout to the bloke after he had tested me not to pull anyone else over as they had now reached their quota.).
Traffic cop approaches and as I think it's only a random I ask whether I can go as I was late for work and desperate for fuel - I pointed out the empty gauge and warning light. He says no and that I just went through a stop sign without stopping and goes off to write out tickets for both cars. When he comes back and explains 3 points and $150 fine my wife had to restrain me.
The cop disagreed that it was a complete farce as apparently an accident had occurred recently when someone did an illegal U turn in front of the junction and someone went through the stop sign without stopping and hit them, hence why they were clamping down at that junction. He said a stop sign was like a red traffic light and did I make a habit of going through those, luckily I have had anger management training. Maybe they should put traffic lights there if they want people to stop, they seem to put them everywhere else, a set went in at a junction only round the corner recently as it was identified under the federal blackspot campaign - since installed I have seen 3 write offs and at least 10 smaller incidents with light poles needing replacing half a dozen times - never saw a single problem before it was listed a blackspot and had lights installed. Now you have to dodge the broken glass every time you go through the junction.
So now, instead of using my judgement when approaching this T junction, I am supposed to stop even if clear and then pull away. I refuse to do this on safety grounds as I can guarantee if I did that 10 times on one occasion someone is going to go up my arse.
That and the fact that the WA drive safe book lists the offence as "failure to stop and give way at a stop sign", which I didn't, as there was nothing to give way to, will form my defense on this one.
Hi Deviant,
That's exactly the kind of thing that's going to happen when you can see clearly down the road at the junction.
Yet in East Perth heading out onto the Graham Farmer you get to the slip road over the top of the freeway which is then give way, not stop. Yet you can't see a thing as cars are coming from the right over a crest at high speed, from the other direction across the junction and you are normally blinded by cars sitting at the lights waiting to cross straight over.
You nearly have to stop every time but why would this be give way and others stop - I wouldn't mind so much if the bloody law was consistent and actually made sense.
That's exactly the kind of thing that's going to happen when you can see clearly down the road at the junction.
Yet in East Perth heading out onto the Graham Farmer you get to the slip road over the top of the freeway which is then give way, not stop. Yet you can't see a thing as cars are coming from the right over a crest at high speed, from the other direction across the junction and you are normally blinded by cars sitting at the lights waiting to cross straight over.
You nearly have to stop every time but why would this be give way and others stop - I wouldn't mind so much if the bloody law was consistent and actually made sense.
Fancy becoming an inaugral member of the PPRSG (Pistonheads Perth Road Safety Group) - how about we start listing all these inconsistencies and present them to main roads ?
Whoever they do have designing roundabouts hasn't got the hang of it yet either as ever noticed how there is a tightening radius on the exit rather than the entrance. I thought the idea was to slow traffic onto it not off of it.
Whoever they do have designing roundabouts hasn't got the hang of it yet either as ever noticed how there is a tightening radius on the exit rather than the entrance. I thought the idea was to slow traffic onto it not off of it.
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