1952 "droop snoot" C type
Discussion
I'd like to thank everybody here for their support and encouragement on this project. Following the sale of my long nose Lynx D type at the end of last year the car is now well advanced and will be at Stoneleigh this weekend, albeit without bodywork as just a rolling chassis. The engine is finished, the gearbox (close ratio 1952) is found, the wiring loom, in fact everything apart from an original C type steering wheel which hopefully will come to light perhaps at Beaulieu or somewhere this year. If not, well, copies are available. In a couple of weeks the car will go to CKL developments for the body to be made and hopefully the car will be finished at the end of November.Here are a couple of photos so far:-
The carbs were found on Ebay and the rest either made or bought in from specialist suppliers. The first outing is programmed for Hartley Wintney on the 1st January next. Once again, thanks to all for your encouragement.
The carbs were found on Ebay and the rest either made or bought in from specialist suppliers. The first outing is programmed for Hartley Wintney on the 1st January next. Once again, thanks to all for your encouragement.
Ah, yes and no is the answer to your question! All C types except the famous 1953 team cars had drum brakes. Only those three cars had discs and it was the first time that the 24 hour race had been won by a car with disc brakes. Similarly, if you look at the bonnet of the '53 cars there is a bonnet scoop since those cars had 3 40DCO3 Webers instead of two 2" SU H8 sand cast carbs.
Just the usual promises of delivery and nothing arrives frankly. The top plate for the gearbox for example, which is completely different to an XK120. That was promised months back but nothing has arrived. However, that isn't holding things up much because the people who are building the body (the buck first) have two real C types in their workshop so they can start building the buck on one of those. I am now resigned to just waiting things out and hoping that it will be ready for the end of the year. At least at the moment I am bill free! As and when there is news to post I'll do so but don't hold your breath.
Now there are two thoughts on Turrino wheels made by wire wheel services. I suggest you read the Blockley Tyre site about an accident. It is rumoured, no more, that this was caused by (perhaps) Turrino wheels being slightly undersized causing the tyre to slip and turn ripping the valve out of the tube. From a wheel and tyre expert I heard that the wheels were not responsible and that the car had the wrong type of inner tubes - too thin and that one exploded. Be that as it may my wheels have been measured against a London taxi wheel and an MWS 16 inch steel XK wheel by an expert and found to be fractionally under size - 12mm approximately. His opinion is that they are perfectly adequte for the job and that the tyre will hold, not slip. Now a 16 inch steel wheel is about £140 (I think) but these, with alloy rims, are £750 each but that is what the car had at the time and so that it must be. For FIA papers I guess they accept the steel wheels since I have seen a few C types (real ones) wearing them but to me that isn't the point - I want the car to be an exact copy. Borrani are an alternative but extremely expensive. Anyway, Wire wheel Services have made these wheels for Stirling Moss for over 20 years and he has never had a problem so I doubt I will either. This car is to race once if I can get it accepted - Le Mans Classic 2010 since Le Mans is the only place the car ever raced. Other than that it is for my enjoyment. Wheels are a personal matter of choice, but the manufacturers were extrememly attentive and even phoned to ask exactly what offset we wanted so they would be exactly correct. I have however taken Julian Majoub's advice and bought my rim tape and inner tubes from him.
Gnostic Ascent said:
Lowdrag you have probably answered this question elsewhere but i am interested to know why you have gone to the trouble of building your own C-Type rather than directing a build by Lynx or TWR or Heritage or......
I am guessing from your replies to other posts (you are an incredible officianado of the Jaguar mark) that you are after a vehicle that is identical to an original C-type in all ways.
To start from the beginning of your post Lynx haven't existed for nearly two years now and their build costs were extortionate and the cars are nowhere near correct. Their last XKSS was sold for £260,000 I believe and a Lnyx C is about £100,000 if you can find one (only five made). TWR, Heritage build "replicas" in the loosest sense; they use a Mk 2 rear axle which is 4 ins wider than a C type, they use a synchro box, they don't use the correct chassis or engine, in fact they are more correctly termed a pastiche in my humble opinion. Most are in plastic too. The final thing is for me their choice of carburettors which really explains their ethos; three Weber 45DCOE cost £1,000 but three correct 40DCO3 cost £7,500. From a distance the main manufacturers of C types cars look like a C type, but get close and they are completely wrong. It is like comparing a fake Rolex to a real one; the second hand sweeps on a real one and ticks on the quartz replicas.I am guessing from your replies to other posts (you are an incredible officianado of the Jaguar mark) that you are after a vehicle that is identical to an original C-type in all ways.
As a Jaguar fanatic and journalist I have been involved with the marque in one way or another for thirty years yet I only really got to know about this car 10 years back, so little is there known about it. Now there are two Jaguars that don't exist in one form or another, real or replica; the 1952 C type and E1A, the first transitional prototype between the D and the E type. E1A would be an impossible project really since so little is known about it although a few bits were found in a scrapyard about 10 years back, but not enough to really understand the construction method of the car. So I took the decision that this car should exist and sold one of my Lynx D types to fund the project. We are at great pains to ensure that this car will be a clone of the original, not a replica, even down to sourcing the correct material for the seat covers - it isn't leather as you might think. I have five years of my time invested in the project so far including visits to the JDHT archives and internet searches for photos and so on. I am a bit stuck for 1952 air to pump up the tyres and the original tyres style (Dunlop Stabila) hasn't been made for over 50 years so in that respect it can't be original, but the chassis and all other parts will make this a correct C type and we shall be applying for FIA papers so it can race.
The reason? Well, the original car was hurriedly built for Le Mans and it raced once and once only before being scrapped. I have already asked Petersport if it can be accepted for the 2010 Le Mans Classic so that it can once again be seen on holy ground, the only place it was ever seen. I don't expect their answer for a year at least since they have this year's race to get out of the way first but I live in hope. I hope the car will give pleasure to a lot of people while not expecting it to win anything but that isn't the point of the whole thing. I guess you can call it my Mount Everest - because it was there.
Perhaps many might consider me daft and with good reason perhaps but to hell with it, we pass this way but once don't we? Hope this answers you as you would wish.
Edited by lowdrag on Friday 30th May 16:51
Here I quote Paul Skilleter on XKD 544. Incidentally, I have a personal loathing of the reference quoted above for C & D type history since it was lifted straight from Philip Porter's Sports Racing Car book and yet they give no credit on their site. Here goes:-
Sometimes a genuine frame appears that comes from a car never sold by Jaguar as a legal entity. One such in circulation is XKD 544, commonly known as the 'glass fibre D-type'. I personally am convinced (though absolute proof has yet to emerge) that this frame and other D-type parts were used by Jaguar's experimental department to produce an experimental glass fibre monocoque XK-SS. Minus its engine, the car in this form appears to have left the factory in the late 1950s or very early 1960s, but not under cover of an official invoice. In the 1970s the frame and other parts were built into a conventional production D-type and it has been successfully raced with FIA papers ever since.
In my opinion this car is a 'proper' D-type, having an unchallenged number, incorporates the original chassis frame and, so far as I am aware, has a continuous history as that car. However (and this element is not mere opinion), its provenance must also include the fact that it was never provenly sold as a legal entity by Jaguar Cars Ltd, which thus still technically owns the motor car identity XKD 544 - if it exists. Indeed this has been reflected in its price whenever it has changed hands, as it usually fetches some 20 - 25 per cent less than would be realised by a conventional production D-type. This is a perfectly satisfactory situation as the circumstances are appreciated by everyone.
Buried treasure
Sometimes a genuine frame appears that comes from a car never sold by Jaguar as a legal entity. One such in circulation is XKD 544, commonly known as the 'glass fibre D-type'. I personally am convinced (though absolute proof has yet to emerge) that this frame and other D-type parts were used by Jaguar's experimental department to produce an experimental glass fibre monocoque XK-SS. Minus its engine, the car in this form appears to have left the factory in the late 1950s or very early 1960s, but not under cover of an official invoice. In the 1970s the frame and other parts were built into a conventional production D-type and it has been successfully raced with FIA papers ever since.
In my opinion this car is a 'proper' D-type, having an unchallenged number, incorporates the original chassis frame and, so far as I am aware, has a continuous history as that car. However (and this element is not mere opinion), its provenance must also include the fact that it was never provenly sold as a legal entity by Jaguar Cars Ltd, which thus still technically owns the motor car identity XKD 544 - if it exists. Indeed this has been reflected in its price whenever it has changed hands, as it usually fetches some 20 - 25 per cent less than would be realised by a conventional production D-type. This is a perfectly satisfactory situation as the circumstances are appreciated by everyone.
Buried treasure
Edited by lowdrag on Friday 6th June 07:31
Here we go again! One part of a car here, one there, another somewhere else and then we have three cars with the same chassis number. Since the original car was never sold by Jaguar there will always be some doubts over its credibility as is reflected in the price but IMHO the glass fibre body CAN NEVER BE a real D type on a correct chassis. The construction of a D type is half monocoque and half chassis unlike an E type which is all monocoque and completely different to a C type which was full chassis. They must have severely modified and strengthened the original if it had a full glass fibre monocoque or else the car would have simply fallen to pieces. More likely part of the car was alloy and part glass. After all these years it is most unlikely that the new car would ever be considered the "real" XKD 544 becausae the other car has gained credence. Anyway, I'd love to know why you think the original glass fibre hull exists since according tom my records it was destroyed in the 1950's.Did you read it somewhere? I am intrigued.
We discussed long and hard whether to build a wire or wooden buck and the conclusion was that since we are not planning a series of these cars (heavens forbid!) that a wire buck would be cheaper and just as good, as you can see. The buck belongs to me and will be kept should at any time the car have an accident. This is though just the beginning since we'll finish the buck off on my own car when it arrives at the bodyshop this week. As you can see, the middle of the buck isn't complete up to the driver and that will be done shortly so we'll have a full buck. They only used this car because it was there and enabled them to start work until my car arrived.
Edited by lowdrag on Wednesday 25th June 16:22
RW774 said:
Hi Low drag,how is the C going ?
Slowly sadly. The wheeling machine has a bent shaft so the alloy was coming out corrugated. A new shaft has been made and hopefully work can commence again. The rear end is almost finished and then they attack the bonnet. With any luck we are still on for Retromobile but if not then at Race Retro at Stoneleigh 13/15 March 2009. Incidentally, 774 RW was also on a C type remember, not just the Hawthorn D type.
Edit: incidentally I only found out recently that the correct name for the car is the Series 2 C type.
Edited by lowdrag on Friday 3rd October 07:03
No photo showing on my screen email it to me.
Edit: Jagman, your guess is as good as mine. Here is a photo of the rear wing being wheeled and as you can see the machine is typically early 20th century and massive. It is a total mystery how the shaft became bent, but be that as it may a billet of steel had to be procured, then machined, then a bronze bush made so we could continue the project. It all takes time and it is somewhat galling, but I console myself in the thought that I wouldn't have wanted to drive it much anyway in the middle of winter!
Edit: Jagman, your guess is as good as mine. Here is a photo of the rear wing being wheeled and as you can see the machine is typically early 20th century and massive. It is a total mystery how the shaft became bent, but be that as it may a billet of steel had to be procured, then machined, then a bronze bush made so we could continue the project. It all takes time and it is somewhat galling, but I console myself in the thought that I wouldn't have wanted to drive it much anyway in the middle of winter!
Edited by lowdrag on Saturday 4th October 07:33
Having done a bit of research on you Paul, you are obviously well into the ethos of Jaguars and should know that there is really no such thing as a "new" C type or else all the replicas out there, no matter what marque, would be running around on Q plates. The answer is to buy a completely rusted out wreck of a car of the correct type and reuse the engine, gearbox and as many parts as you can so that you have a continuous history and so have no problems with the DVLA inspector. Yes, the chassis and body are new, but the running gear is contiguous and continuous. Now the Suffolk cars, both SS100's and the new C type use in the main old XJ or Mk 2 identities for the log book and while the car looks like an SS100 or C type it ain't according to the log book. My two Lynx cars were a 1967 2+2 E type (short nose) and a Mk X (long nose) on the V5's. Who cares anyway? Mine is an XK120 and that's all that matters. Many years back, the rules were much looser. Have you ever seen the D type registered XKD 545 J? This was exported new to the USA and returned in 1970. They didn't issue age related plates in the day so he managed to get his chassis number on the plate, but technically I guess it is a 1970 D type!
Sadly today I lost an auction on Fleabay for a photo of the car broken down on the Mulsanne but I had taken the trouble of copying the thumbnail just in case. It'll probably look awful but here is a photo of Ian Stewart at the approach Mulsanne after the car overheated for the first time. I've written to the purchaser asking if he'd like to share and explained why but I have an idea that the buyer is associated with the vendor if you know what I mean. As regards the car, it is now under way again now that the wheeling machine no longer makes only corrugated panels.
Edit: note the amazing level of security in those days of yore!
Edit: note the amazing level of security in those days of yore!
Edited by lowdrag on Wednesday 15th October 13:22
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