Daimler V8 Modern Ignition and Injection Conversion
Discussion
Hi Guys,
After many years of continplating a modern conversion (my father looked at TBI from the Rover 200 series back in the mid 90's) I have with the help of my father (Russ Carpenter) started work on a full modern fuel injection and ignition system.
We have guestimated
that we should be able to easily achieve 180bhp using a stock parts with minimal adaption (mainly cutting the inlet manifold down to accept a single throttle body.
The system is currently based around the Megasquirt ECU (much to everyones discussed i expect to hear but with the help of one of the key code writers onboard) but uses Ford OEM equipment to replace the old distributer and SU's primarily for easy of sourcing, low cost and easy upgrading for high performance US imported parts if required.
We are in the very infant stages atm but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on such a conversion.
The conversion will use semi-sequential injection and ignition all controlled by the ECU via wideband lambda. This will help to cut the emissions right down which may ultimately allow Daimler V8's to be used in modern rod conversions and kitcars.
The obvious benefits for SP250 and Saloon owners will be increased performance, economy and throttle response while reducing emissions.
Please leave me your comments, etc.
After many years of continplating a modern conversion (my father looked at TBI from the Rover 200 series back in the mid 90's) I have with the help of my father (Russ Carpenter) started work on a full modern fuel injection and ignition system.
We have guestimated
that we should be able to easily achieve 180bhp using a stock parts with minimal adaption (mainly cutting the inlet manifold down to accept a single throttle body.The system is currently based around the Megasquirt ECU (much to everyones discussed i expect to hear but with the help of one of the key code writers onboard) but uses Ford OEM equipment to replace the old distributer and SU's primarily for easy of sourcing, low cost and easy upgrading for high performance US imported parts if required.
We are in the very infant stages atm but I would be interested to hear peoples opinions on such a conversion.
The conversion will use semi-sequential injection and ignition all controlled by the ECU via wideband lambda. This will help to cut the emissions right down which may ultimately allow Daimler V8's to be used in modern rod conversions and kitcars.
The obvious benefits for SP250 and Saloon owners will be increased performance, economy and throttle response while reducing emissions.
Please leave me your comments, etc.
Thanks for the comments so far.
a8hex - i did browse the forums and look through those pages. Seems to me everyone makes a lot of work out of nothing really. But never the less interesting reading.
RW774 - I'm not suprised it has taken such a short time to find someone to jump on Megasquirt so quickly. In my opinion they all have their own pro's and con's but I'm lucky enough to have one of the original coders on board to assist development anyway. He himself has already created Rover V8 kits with great success. As for my horsepower gains (or lack of) I fail to see how you can suggest that. The sequential injection will assist with a more accurate fuel supply and with modern coils and timed ignition will be mapable exactly to the engine. Dont forget the SU's do the engine no favours and the inlet manifold strangles the engine horendously!!! With port injection the flow of the manifold and old carbs are no longer the issue and the new coils will make sure the engine fires better as the plug gaps can be widened to a more realistic gap. And who needs a submersible pump? An uprated remote pump (like is currently in the boot of the Daimlers) is fine. It just has to supply a realistic pressure to the fuel rail and let the Fuel Pressure Regulator handle the supply.
I get the impression you have somewhat underestimated our research and progress though. Flow rates have been calculated, injector spray patterns assest, coil discharge voltages calculated, pulse width figures calculated, etc etc. And as for the mechanical side there is no one better in his understanding than my father so we are well ahead already. Its not like this is just a shed build stab-in-the-dark.
But thankyou for your comments, all are taken on board with thanks.
Erich - Nice to hear from people who remember him. There was a car called the Hepolite Hustler, but dads car was the Glacier Grenade. 7.2 seconds at 180mph weren't bad times from a practically stock Daimler engine (admitedly on race fuels)
Its a shame British Layland didnt realise what an engine they had. They were convinced that 300 BHP was the best achievable before it would blow its self apart. We gave up argueing with them long before dad got to 1400 BHP. The funniest thing from the who saga was the fact they even checked the figures themselves calculating long hand and agreed with the calculations and result, but swore blind there must a mistake even with their calculations as it was only able to handle 300 BHP. Dad gave up argueing with them then.
Incase your interested to see the car as it ended its days visit www.russcarpenterracing.co.uk - loads of old pictures, etc there.
On a side note, if anyone has any old pictures of my dad and his dragster (trouble, More trouble, EVen more trouble or Glacier Grenade) from the 70's - 00's and can spare a copy digital or otherwise I'd greatly appreciate it.
a8hex - i did browse the forums and look through those pages. Seems to me everyone makes a lot of work out of nothing really. But never the less interesting reading.
RW774 - I'm not suprised it has taken such a short time to find someone to jump on Megasquirt so quickly. In my opinion they all have their own pro's and con's but I'm lucky enough to have one of the original coders on board to assist development anyway. He himself has already created Rover V8 kits with great success. As for my horsepower gains (or lack of) I fail to see how you can suggest that. The sequential injection will assist with a more accurate fuel supply and with modern coils and timed ignition will be mapable exactly to the engine. Dont forget the SU's do the engine no favours and the inlet manifold strangles the engine horendously!!! With port injection the flow of the manifold and old carbs are no longer the issue and the new coils will make sure the engine fires better as the plug gaps can be widened to a more realistic gap. And who needs a submersible pump? An uprated remote pump (like is currently in the boot of the Daimlers) is fine. It just has to supply a realistic pressure to the fuel rail and let the Fuel Pressure Regulator handle the supply.
I get the impression you have somewhat underestimated our research and progress though. Flow rates have been calculated, injector spray patterns assest, coil discharge voltages calculated, pulse width figures calculated, etc etc. And as for the mechanical side there is no one better in his understanding than my father so we are well ahead already. Its not like this is just a shed build stab-in-the-dark.
But thankyou for your comments, all are taken on board with thanks.
Erich - Nice to hear from people who remember him. There was a car called the Hepolite Hustler, but dads car was the Glacier Grenade. 7.2 seconds at 180mph weren't bad times from a practically stock Daimler engine (admitedly on race fuels)
Its a shame British Layland didnt realise what an engine they had. They were convinced that 300 BHP was the best achievable before it would blow its self apart. We gave up argueing with them long before dad got to 1400 BHP. The funniest thing from the who saga was the fact they even checked the figures themselves calculating long hand and agreed with the calculations and result, but swore blind there must a mistake even with their calculations as it was only able to handle 300 BHP. Dad gave up argueing with them then.
Incase your interested to see the car as it ended its days visit www.russcarpenterracing.co.uk - loads of old pictures, etc there.
On a side note, if anyone has any old pictures of my dad and his dragster (trouble, More trouble, EVen more trouble or Glacier Grenade) from the 70's - 00's and can spare a copy digital or otherwise I'd greatly appreciate it.
Intersting reply.
Having spoke to literally dozens of coders I make my point that everyone recommends the one they can get to work and use. Everyone has their own preference. Back-up for MS will be kindly suplied by Phil Ringwood (original MS Extra coder) ready to assist at the end of a phone and computer. He's already writing our core settings for us.
As for experiance I have nothing more to say on that front. Its apparent you have already decided we're novices and thats your decision.
As for getting what you pay for I think your find that both the Emerald and Megasquirt ECU's are priced roughly the same around the £500 mark (give or take £50 depending where you go)
I understand the idea behind twin TB but the loss is minimal in all areas as far as we're concerned. We have other things that can be sorted that would make more of a differance. Exhaust manifolds to start with!!
I totally agree banked injection is adequate but semi-sequential never the less better, expecially with the evential progression on to a supercharged version (can't wait to hear the criticism on that idea). But that is a later idea, for now we're focusing on a NA kit.
And as for pump and swirl pot, neither are an issue. The fuel pump isn't as noisy as you try to make out if fitted correctly and the swirl pot is not required as long as you have a good fuel supply. Beside the hassle of fitting a modern pump to the tank.
I have noticed however your a Jag man which may explain some of the tabooing to this project. Its amazing how jag people can be with us "poor" Daimler owners
Perhaps as you are experianced in retro fitting Jag mk2's with fuel injection you could shed some light on which pump you use in the tank to offer the swirl pot built in while allowing easy instalation in the old system?
Any advise would be appreciated at the end of the day.
If anyone else has any constructive criticism please do comment.
Having spoke to literally dozens of coders I make my point that everyone recommends the one they can get to work and use. Everyone has their own preference. Back-up for MS will be kindly suplied by Phil Ringwood (original MS Extra coder) ready to assist at the end of a phone and computer. He's already writing our core settings for us.
As for experiance I have nothing more to say on that front. Its apparent you have already decided we're novices and thats your decision.
As for getting what you pay for I think your find that both the Emerald and Megasquirt ECU's are priced roughly the same around the £500 mark (give or take £50 depending where you go)
I understand the idea behind twin TB but the loss is minimal in all areas as far as we're concerned. We have other things that can be sorted that would make more of a differance. Exhaust manifolds to start with!!
I totally agree banked injection is adequate but semi-sequential never the less better, expecially with the evential progression on to a supercharged version (can't wait to hear the criticism on that idea). But that is a later idea, for now we're focusing on a NA kit.
And as for pump and swirl pot, neither are an issue. The fuel pump isn't as noisy as you try to make out if fitted correctly and the swirl pot is not required as long as you have a good fuel supply. Beside the hassle of fitting a modern pump to the tank.
I have noticed however your a Jag man which may explain some of the tabooing to this project. Its amazing how jag people can be with us "poor" Daimler owners
Perhaps as you are experianced in retro fitting Jag mk2's with fuel injection you could shed some light on which pump you use in the tank to offer the swirl pot built in while allowing easy instalation in the old system?
Any advise would be appreciated at the end of the day.
If anyone else has any constructive criticism please do comment.
Hi Guys,
brian g - thanks for the kind words. I'll update this forum page as we progress. I'm hoping to have a running example by xmas but we'll see if work commitments allows this.
The supercharger we were think of was the Eaton M62 or M90 (similar to the Jag XK supercharger).
The nice things about these are they will sit on top of a stock manifold (with a little adaption) and have rear entry so should easily fit nicely under the bonnet without the need to cut anything on the body. If you can let me know the model number of your GM v6 blower i will look into it. We're only planning on running 6-7 psi so should just about avoid the need for cooling. Although we have got ideas in the pipeline should it be required.
As for manifolds, nothing as of yet is planned. There have been discussions about making a custom 4-1 pipe setup but until we have everything else we want/need this will not be looked at.
As for the 4.5 I wouldnt worry there aren't many around now days. Don't get me wrong, they were lovely engines (as nice as the 2.5) but teh reason dad didn't use a 4.5 back in the early 70's was because they were a bugger to get spares for then. Now days its impossible, literaly!!!!!
RW774 - I'll take heed of you point. I'm hoping that it wont be required but I'll keep your recommendation in mind. Believe me I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong should I fit one. I know from great experiance how these pumps can suffer. Its one of the first thing my dad does when he has a customer who can't start a daimler, so much so he always carrys one with him. We recently obtained a beautiful mk2 daimler saloon from an old customer of my dad who had past away. It had a virtually brand new pump fitted which had already burn't out through running dry. The old owner hadn't changed it because he'd assumed it couldn't be the new pump that was faulty. That was the only reason it hadn't been on teh road for 2 years. Such a shame because he'd really looked after it as well.
I'm assuming your father was a pre-British Leyland apprentice when Daimler was still Daimler Motor Company Ltd. Coventry. What a lucky man to work with such a prestigious car company back then. Just a shame that as with all British marques the management couldn't run the company right.
I am impressed with your knowledge of Daimler. Its a shame Lyons couldn't see fit to use the daimler lumps in his beloved jags otherwise the fortunes could have been very different for Jaguar in the 70's and 80's. He is supposed to have finally scrapped the engine usage when a 4.5 was fitted to a mk10 and out performed the jag version considerably. NVM, thats history.
I'm sure the fact that the engine was so costly to produce didnt help either. My father has got a full breakdown of the chemical values, etc of the metals used in the engine somewhere, he had a friend who worked for a petrol chemical company in the 70's to test it in their labs. I can't remember off the top of my head however what metals were used. All i can remember is the quality is extremely good, thus why they are so strong!
I think everyone can agree the Dart (though beautiful) was the death throws of the company. Thats why Jag brought out the version B straight after they bought Daimler because of the safety risks.
Anyway, as soon as we start getting things together I'll update people on progress.
brian g - thanks for the kind words. I'll update this forum page as we progress. I'm hoping to have a running example by xmas but we'll see if work commitments allows this.
The supercharger we were think of was the Eaton M62 or M90 (similar to the Jag XK supercharger).
The nice things about these are they will sit on top of a stock manifold (with a little adaption) and have rear entry so should easily fit nicely under the bonnet without the need to cut anything on the body. If you can let me know the model number of your GM v6 blower i will look into it. We're only planning on running 6-7 psi so should just about avoid the need for cooling. Although we have got ideas in the pipeline should it be required.
As for manifolds, nothing as of yet is planned. There have been discussions about making a custom 4-1 pipe setup but until we have everything else we want/need this will not be looked at.
As for the 4.5 I wouldnt worry there aren't many around now days. Don't get me wrong, they were lovely engines (as nice as the 2.5) but teh reason dad didn't use a 4.5 back in the early 70's was because they were a bugger to get spares for then. Now days its impossible, literaly!!!!!
RW774 - I'll take heed of you point. I'm hoping that it wont be required but I'll keep your recommendation in mind. Believe me I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong should I fit one. I know from great experiance how these pumps can suffer. Its one of the first thing my dad does when he has a customer who can't start a daimler, so much so he always carrys one with him. We recently obtained a beautiful mk2 daimler saloon from an old customer of my dad who had past away. It had a virtually brand new pump fitted which had already burn't out through running dry. The old owner hadn't changed it because he'd assumed it couldn't be the new pump that was faulty. That was the only reason it hadn't been on teh road for 2 years. Such a shame because he'd really looked after it as well.
I'm assuming your father was a pre-British Leyland apprentice when Daimler was still Daimler Motor Company Ltd. Coventry. What a lucky man to work with such a prestigious car company back then. Just a shame that as with all British marques the management couldn't run the company right.
I am impressed with your knowledge of Daimler. Its a shame Lyons couldn't see fit to use the daimler lumps in his beloved jags otherwise the fortunes could have been very different for Jaguar in the 70's and 80's. He is supposed to have finally scrapped the engine usage when a 4.5 was fitted to a mk10 and out performed the jag version considerably. NVM, thats history.
I'm sure the fact that the engine was so costly to produce didnt help either. My father has got a full breakdown of the chemical values, etc of the metals used in the engine somewhere, he had a friend who worked for a petrol chemical company in the 70's to test it in their labs. I can't remember off the top of my head however what metals were used. All i can remember is the quality is extremely good, thus why they are so strong!
I think everyone can agree the Dart (though beautiful) was the death throws of the company. Thats why Jag brought out the version B straight after they bought Daimler because of the safety risks.
Anyway, as soon as we start getting things together I'll update people on progress.
Hi guys,
a8hex - a twin screw hasn't even been looked at if I'm compleately honest. We looked at Eatons primarily because we have been given a Jag unit from a 2002 XK which is vertually brand new! Then with a bit of digging found rebuilt secondhand M90's from the states which we can get imported for less than £200.
Purely on a financial basis they're exceptional value!
RW774 - What a shame all that equipment and books have gone. They'd be worth a small fortune now days, not to mention the technological insight to be gained.
Chrome Moly is correct!!! Much impressed. The only thing my dad did to make the engine take 1400BHP was to fill in the rods because he began to break them at 1000BHP, fit a 4 bolt main caps and Triumph Bonnie pistons to up the compression ratio for the race fuel. I'd like to see a "stock" engine obtain anywhere close to that nowdays practically as it left the factory!!! Even the yank and jap motors that get close to that tuned end up with aftermarket billet and machined everything specially designed to take the power.
Jimski - sounds like your in another world to us I'm afraid. Its a lovely piece of software from what chance i've had to look around it but alas am unable to obtain a copy. But you sound like you've studied mechanical sciences!!!! We're from the old school of 60's & 70's night school and self taught engineering. Its experiance and old school know-how which lines our roads. Any help you could offer us would be appreciated
As for flow rates and ignition curves its a case of hunting for similar horse power applications and finding the injectors to fit your needs from the field (We've ended up with mustang injectors). Flow rates are easily obtained then by hunting the part coding which will list a realm of information from everywhere inc. Bosch (if you use Bosch injectors then all the better). They can supply you all the info you need. Just drop them an email if you can't find it on their website. They are very helpful!!!!! Bosch may be able to reccomend an injector for you if you can supply them the info they need on application, dimensions, etc.
a8hex - a twin screw hasn't even been looked at if I'm compleately honest. We looked at Eatons primarily because we have been given a Jag unit from a 2002 XK which is vertually brand new! Then with a bit of digging found rebuilt secondhand M90's from the states which we can get imported for less than £200.
Purely on a financial basis they're exceptional value!
RW774 - What a shame all that equipment and books have gone. They'd be worth a small fortune now days, not to mention the technological insight to be gained.
Chrome Moly is correct!!! Much impressed. The only thing my dad did to make the engine take 1400BHP was to fill in the rods because he began to break them at 1000BHP, fit a 4 bolt main caps and Triumph Bonnie pistons to up the compression ratio for the race fuel. I'd like to see a "stock" engine obtain anywhere close to that nowdays practically as it left the factory!!! Even the yank and jap motors that get close to that tuned end up with aftermarket billet and machined everything specially designed to take the power.
Jimski - sounds like your in another world to us I'm afraid. Its a lovely piece of software from what chance i've had to look around it but alas am unable to obtain a copy. But you sound like you've studied mechanical sciences!!!! We're from the old school of 60's & 70's night school and self taught engineering. Its experiance and old school know-how which lines our roads. Any help you could offer us would be appreciated
As for flow rates and ignition curves its a case of hunting for similar horse power applications and finding the injectors to fit your needs from the field (We've ended up with mustang injectors). Flow rates are easily obtained then by hunting the part coding which will list a realm of information from everywhere inc. Bosch (if you use Bosch injectors then all the better). They can supply you all the info you need. Just drop them an email if you can't find it on their website. They are very helpful!!!!! Bosch may be able to reccomend an injector for you if you can supply them the info they need on application, dimensions, etc.
Hi Brian,
To be quite honest we're rushed off our feet at the moment.
Dad has finally realised he's not 20 anymore and has to start to take things at a relistic pace for a 64 year old.
So things have backed up a touch because of it.
I'm just about ready to start to put it all together, its just a matter of him having the time and energy to start work on the necessary mods to the inlet manifold, etc.
While at the Classic Car Show at the NEC this year we were kindly donated an original 1960's Manual fuel injection system that was in development. It runs along the lines of the motorbike throttle body conversions that are used these days on the megasquirt system. We've had a good look through it and have plans on making a demo engine with it when we've finished our first generation management system.
With us looking to take the race car out for a few meetings this year its slowly getting put back.
I'm impressed you noticed that we're looking to be at Nagstaligia at the Pod. How did you see that?
Its still unknown if we can run that weekend.
Dad's wanting to give me a go in the car so as long as I can fit in the car safely, I'll be on the lookout for a Nomex Racesuit. Should be a tidy sum, especially as I'm such a big bloke. We're hoping to be able to import one from the US. But gotta find one that will fit first.
Eitherway,
As soon as i can I'll update on my progress,
Andrew
To be quite honest we're rushed off our feet at the moment.
Dad has finally realised he's not 20 anymore and has to start to take things at a relistic pace for a 64 year old.
So things have backed up a touch because of it.
I'm just about ready to start to put it all together, its just a matter of him having the time and energy to start work on the necessary mods to the inlet manifold, etc.
While at the Classic Car Show at the NEC this year we were kindly donated an original 1960's Manual fuel injection system that was in development. It runs along the lines of the motorbike throttle body conversions that are used these days on the megasquirt system. We've had a good look through it and have plans on making a demo engine with it when we've finished our first generation management system.
With us looking to take the race car out for a few meetings this year its slowly getting put back.
I'm impressed you noticed that we're looking to be at Nagstaligia at the Pod. How did you see that?
Its still unknown if we can run that weekend.
Dad's wanting to give me a go in the car so as long as I can fit in the car safely, I'll be on the lookout for a Nomex Racesuit. Should be a tidy sum, especially as I'm such a big bloke. We're hoping to be able to import one from the US. But gotta find one that will fit first.
Eitherway,
As soon as i can I'll update on my progress,
Andrew
Edited by CarpenterRacing on Wednesday 5th January 19:14
Hi Fandango,
Unfortunately due to illness of both myself and my father it got postponed for quite some time.
Ironically I've been working on it quite a bit lately and it is almost ready for test bedding.
I have done most of the hard bits but it wont be cheap to do when finished!
The ECU is £700, plus the injectors, wiring, and other bits needed will make it closer to £1500 in parts alone. Then there's the machining, welding, etc.
By the time its finished I can imagine it will cost £2500 easily if you did most of it yourself.
Then theres the tuning needed to get it running right! That will take quite some time and effort.
Please don't be under any illusion its a quick and easy fix because its not.
What it will do is allow you to gain more power from the engine but more importantly better emissions and far better fuel economy.
Unfortunately due to illness of both myself and my father it got postponed for quite some time.
Ironically I've been working on it quite a bit lately and it is almost ready for test bedding.
I have done most of the hard bits but it wont be cheap to do when finished!
The ECU is £700, plus the injectors, wiring, and other bits needed will make it closer to £1500 in parts alone. Then there's the machining, welding, etc.
By the time its finished I can imagine it will cost £2500 easily if you did most of it yourself.
Then theres the tuning needed to get it running right! That will take quite some time and effort.
Please don't be under any illusion its a quick and easy fix because its not.
What it will do is allow you to gain more power from the engine but more importantly better emissions and far better fuel economy.
Your right, the inlet is the worst part of the engine.
It was never ment to stay that way but the development team ran out of money and time to redesign it and so it went into production.
The issue arises due to the fact the manifold over fuels the outer cylinders and under fuels the inner cylinders due to its terrible angles within the manifold pipes. The fuel hits the outer wall and drops out flowing into the out cylinders.
Dad has always said you can potentially double the horsepower by running 8psi of boost which has always been done with a GMC 3/71 or Wade.
However we are now looking at the modern Eatons. Rear entry and quite shallow they will mount happily within the engine bay as they sit lower than the carbs and filters do as standard. That is what we plan to use after we get the NA injection Ignition system working reliably.
It was never ment to stay that way but the development team ran out of money and time to redesign it and so it went into production.
The issue arises due to the fact the manifold over fuels the outer cylinders and under fuels the inner cylinders due to its terrible angles within the manifold pipes. The fuel hits the outer wall and drops out flowing into the out cylinders.
Dad has always said you can potentially double the horsepower by running 8psi of boost which has always been done with a GMC 3/71 or Wade.
However we are now looking at the modern Eatons. Rear entry and quite shallow they will mount happily within the engine bay as they sit lower than the carbs and filters do as standard. That is what we plan to use after we get the NA injection Ignition system working reliably.
To be totally honest the cost of doing something like that compared to any prospective business just doesn't make it viable in my opinion.
Those who have this engine in their cars are generally happy to put up with it, those who aren't are generally rodders who will happily cut it about themselves anyway.
There are very few who are that seriously concerned as to avoid the engine because of it or fork out serious money for a short run of custom made manifolds to improve it.
The Ignition Injection system we're doing will struggle to make any money for us as a business venture due to the cost being quite high on top of what is already quite an expensive engine to rebuild anyway in comparable terms to other popular V8s. The only reason we're carrying it on is because we have a real interest in it for personal reasons.
There is a potential it will allow a Daimler transplant into more modern vehicles if it will make the emissions levels required, with the added benefit that if the law is ever changed because classic cars are deemed "too dirty" to allow unrestricted use of by the environmentalists then it could be argued that due to it reaching at least a fairly modern emissions rating (potentially equal to late 90's early 00's) it could be excempt from these restrictions.
Those who have this engine in their cars are generally happy to put up with it, those who aren't are generally rodders who will happily cut it about themselves anyway.
There are very few who are that seriously concerned as to avoid the engine because of it or fork out serious money for a short run of custom made manifolds to improve it.
The Ignition Injection system we're doing will struggle to make any money for us as a business venture due to the cost being quite high on top of what is already quite an expensive engine to rebuild anyway in comparable terms to other popular V8s. The only reason we're carrying it on is because we have a real interest in it for personal reasons.
There is a potential it will allow a Daimler transplant into more modern vehicles if it will make the emissions levels required, with the added benefit that if the law is ever changed because classic cars are deemed "too dirty" to allow unrestricted use of by the environmentalists then it could be argued that due to it reaching at least a fairly modern emissions rating (potentially equal to late 90's early 00's) it could be excempt from these restrictions.
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