Europa - didn't this sell a few weeks ago?
Discussion
C43 said:
not many around so you are doing very well if you get a good one, look reasonable to me.
C43
I think the black one is probably not far off, low mileage and it is from a dealer. C43
The orange one (lovely car) is way over imho, despite the custom paint job. I think it's similar to people during the housing boom putting their house on the market at a ridiculous price to see if anyone is daft enough to pay it
However, as you say there aren't many around so who knows, it is supply and demand and there isn't much supply! Would be interesting to know if he's had any serious offers. s2kjock said:
Shame about that as it the only Europa remotely near me - red one in Newcastle also looks similarly daftly priced.
Here you go, location still no good but shows there are still some sensibly priced ones around! http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3866524.htm
s2kjock said:
I like the look of that one, but as I am in Jockland it's a long way - I'd really like to sit in one/have a closer look at one nearer home before committing to travel and buying.
Good luck, hopefully a 'sensibly' priced one will come up a bit closer...I'm sure there will be others.Just my 2p...the Lotus name obviously and justifiably so carries a certain prestige / cachet. This combined with the Europa being a rare car, and which was not favourably reviewed at launch but is now regarded as somewhat of a modern classic by those 'in the know' makes some owners slightly 'precious' (imo). I'm a fan, and it's a great car and I'd like to own one, but would I spend £25k on one - erm no.
Wootan said:
This was my car, the dealer sold on my behalf. Not sure why it's relisted but it is definitely sold.
I'd be interested to hear what you thought of the car (if you don't mind sharing obviously)...I thought that one looked lovely...it's back on their website too:http://www.pure-lotus.co.uk/used-cars/lotus-europa...
Wootan said:
I was at the dealers today, it has definitely sold.
I part ex'd my s1 Elise about 10 months ago for the Europa, I absolutely loved the Elise but always wanted a little more power. All I can say really is the Europa wasn't for me. It was much quicker than the Elise but didn't feel anything like as exciting to drive and once the novelty of the extra power wore off I started to get bored, and the engine mapping just got annoying. I can totally see why it would be a brilliant everyday sports car and why some people love them; but for a weekend toy it just didn't ring my bell and if you are going to spend £20,000 on a toy you should love it.
That's interesting to hear, I think yours is the first negative comment I've read about the Europa (from an owner/ex-owner that is) - I've read nothing but praise elsewhere. I can understand your view though, a lot of people comment on a Europa being usable as an 'every day' car (maybe this compromises it slightly), whereas even the most ardent fans tend to admit that an Elise requires a bit of commitment to use as an every-day car. I was looking at Elises last night, and I think £25k would purchase quite a nice one. I'm still in the Europa camp personally, I'd prefer something a bit more usable every day....that's assuming there are any left sensibly priced !I part ex'd my s1 Elise about 10 months ago for the Europa, I absolutely loved the Elise but always wanted a little more power. All I can say really is the Europa wasn't for me. It was much quicker than the Elise but didn't feel anything like as exciting to drive and once the novelty of the extra power wore off I started to get bored, and the engine mapping just got annoying. I can totally see why it would be a brilliant everyday sports car and why some people love them; but for a weekend toy it just didn't ring my bell and if you are going to spend £20,000 on a toy you should love it.
M5Fan said:
That's interesting to hear, I think yours is the first negative comment I've read about the Europa (from an owner/ex-owner that is) - I've read nothing but praise elsewhere. I can understand your view though, a lot of people comment on a Europa being usable as an 'every day' car (maybe this compromises it slightly), whereas even the most ardent fans tend to admit that an Elise requires a bit of commitment to use as an every-day car. I was looking at Elises last night, and I think £25k would purchase quite a nice one. I'm still in the Europa camp personally, I'd prefer something a bit more usable every day....that's assuming there are any left sensibly priced !
I think I'm starting to veer towards the Elise for £25k you could have this:http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3588966.htm
or this:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3858480.htm
hmmm.....
C43 said:
oh this could be a very long thread if you are arguing the toss between Europa and Elise....
I drive a Europa every day but have a S1 when my Europa is being serviced. When I get in the Elise it does may me smile, they really are amazing cars the the Elise I use has lots of upgrades on it, but really there is only one area were the Elise wins over a well sorted Europa, and that is the roof comes off. If you are not worried by that the Europa is easier to get in, quieter, quicker, slightly better handling and prettier....if you want a quicker car than a Europa then you will need a 260 cup.
C43
What's the spec of the Elise? How about this one...I think this would probably be fast enough for me ! I drive a Europa every day but have a S1 when my Europa is being serviced. When I get in the Elise it does may me smile, they really are amazing cars the the Elise I use has lots of upgrades on it, but really there is only one area were the Elise wins over a well sorted Europa, and that is the roof comes off. If you are not worried by that the Europa is easier to get in, quieter, quicker, slightly better handling and prettier....if you want a quicker car than a Europa then you will need a 260 cup.
C43
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3844762.htm
Wootan said:
It's each their own really but the handling on a standard s1 Elise is far better than a standard Europa in my opinion. I drove a 111r the other day and it felt every bit as quick as the Europa and no less comfortable, perhaps a little louder. I'm not for a second saying the Europa is bad car, it just didn't do it for me. I just think it doesn't know what it is and has tried to be all things to all men and as result it just does everything OK. Not sure what I will get to replace it, I could really do with a 2+2 but don't want a 911 so any suggestions gratefully received.
This is what you need, let's hope they build it! The picture from the back looks fantastic.. http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/our-cars/future-range/...
F0RG3DP15TON said:
The Europa is starting to look like a decent invest in car terms, there is a really nice SE just gone up for sale: http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/sales/3883621.htm and it is out at 25K too.
Given how rare the car is I really think it is a future appreciating classic. Most owners that post about the car love it. A few decent mods and the car goes from good to great.
Performance wise I think an Exige driver would have a tough time trying to pull away from one. One thing that is really good about the car is that it is so usable on a daily basis, you can get a decent boot full of shopping in the back with ease.
If you are looking for a Lotus you can truly be happy using on a daily basis you'll be hard pushed to beat the Europa in that respect, unless you jump up to an Evora but then you are lookin at an extra £8k - £10k for the cheapest ones.
You should have included these details in the advert Given how rare the car is I really think it is a future appreciating classic. Most owners that post about the car love it. A few decent mods and the car goes from good to great.
Performance wise I think an Exige driver would have a tough time trying to pull away from one. One thing that is really good about the car is that it is so usable on a daily basis, you can get a decent boot full of shopping in the back with ease.
If you are looking for a Lotus you can truly be happy using on a daily basis you'll be hard pushed to beat the Europa in that respect, unless you jump up to an Evora but then you are lookin at an extra £8k - £10k for the cheapest ones.
(as well as the overhang dimensions etc !) F0RG3DP15TON said:
LOL, it's not my car. (no idea what made you think that) just so you know I also laughed at the dimensions stuff in the advert. 
I just happen to be in the market for a new Lotus, I'm actually looking at the Evora, but this thread has been interesting to follow as I remember 4 years ago the Europa was changing hands for only £16k.
From all the ones on sale the orange looks quality and is the best looking one but the other one is an SE.
Just wanted to add my 2 pence.
Ok...it was just that your first post was about what many would agree is quite a rare sports car (100~ in the UK, about a dozen or so for the SE advert you linked to). If you'd said , "A Honda Civic is a good second-hand buy" I wouldn't have commented I just happen to be in the market for a new Lotus, I'm actually looking at the Evora, but this thread has been interesting to follow as I remember 4 years ago the Europa was changing hands for only £16k.
From all the ones on sale the orange looks quality and is the best looking one but the other one is an SE.
Just wanted to add my 2 pence.
If you are linked in some way to the seller though, advise them to have a reality check, if the SE price is based on the orange one (who is equally deluded imo) they need to come down by 7-8k.
This thread started about a black Europa at ~20k which an existing Europa owner thought was pricey - there has since been another Europa owner comment that £17k is achievable, which I think is about right. The SE interior does look nice, but performance-wise an upgraded S is equivalent without the higher VED.
F0RG3DP15TON said:
Nah mate, not linked to the seller in anyway. If I was I'd recommend he updated his add and take the dimensions out
I guess prices are always going to come down to supply and demand. If people want the car and that's the price then what real choice do they have? I'm betting the 25k ones can be haggled down as you don't get if you don't try.
Ever since Chris Randell started racing one and created a whole load of mods for the car it has just become very popular again.
You're right, it's about what people are willing to pay. I believe there's an export market to Europe as well, so exchange rates could also be a factor. I guess prices are always going to come down to supply and demand. If people want the car and that's the price then what real choice do they have? I'm betting the 25k ones can be haggled down as you don't get if you don't try.
Ever since Chris Randell started racing one and created a whole load of mods for the car it has just become very popular again.
I mentioned on this thread previously an analogy to people putting houses up at silly prices during the housing boom - it's can be an eye-opener to see what a house has been advertised for compared to what it actually sells for.
Personally, I think if you're in the market for a rare car such as a Europa you will do your homework - I don't think someone will rock up, look at an advert and say "25k, that must be what they're worth, where do I sign?"
Wootan said:
Good Europa's do sell for 20k + at a dealers not sure how well they sell privately. It will be very interesting to see how the values are affected when Evora's get to 25k which I reckon will happen in the next 12 months as they're already touching 30; I know where my money would go!
Will be interesting to see what happens...£32k, 15k miles from a dealer: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3859704.htmIs this anyone on here, this is lovely: http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3567631.htm
How do the Europa and Evora compare? I hadn't really considered an Evora thinking they would be too much, if they're steadily coming down though they may soon be within reach.
Is the Evora in a different league? Obviously I can see the running costs being more...there's a lot more supply though compared to the Europa, there appear to be loads to choose from.
Is the Evora in a different league? Obviously I can see the running costs being more...there's a lot more supply though compared to the Europa, there appear to be loads to choose from.
C43 said:
Driven both. Europa feels quicker, more focused. Evora slightly bigger, better ride and easier to drift around. Biggest difference is gearchange, Europa great, Evora rubbish. (now I will get flamed
C43
What's the issue with the gearchange, is it a Toyota gearbox - I would have thought it would be like a rifle-bolt action, or is it only Honda who can make them like that? C43
fatwomble - I'd be interested to hear how the sale of yours is going, have you had many offers? I noticed the red one (black wheels) has sold.
Toaster said:
Just thinking how to answer this, because the driving experience is down to personal perception, they are both good cars both as they say Lotus DNA everything you read about the Evora is true and if we are not careful another missed classic by the masses.
The Europa is/was not everyones idea of a modern tourer, we know the interior is the same dimensions as the elise/exige it is a little softer certainly than the exige and has additional sound proofing and some extra trim. Originally the car had a lot of criticism it was not the car the press wanted and some on here made harsh comments and clearly the masses did not warm to it with only 450 ish sold.
Having said that I loved the Europa as an everyday car, some asked how i put up with it e.g. noise and getting in/out well I am supple enough and enjoyed the feedback / engine noise and drive ability of the car the boot can take a flight bag and a PC rucksack and with the 'hamster' cheeks a bit more could also be added. The down side was the crashing and skipping over bumps and you have to be mindful in the wet of what you are driving. If you have a female passanger and they are dressed up for an evening out you had better make sure the door sill is clean, don't get me wrong the driving experience is good for the driver.
The Evora has a grown up interior modern styling and a nice leather dash, has instruments that you would expect on a modern car is it slower than a Europa? no I would not say it is, in fact its smooth V6 power all the way through no sudden acceleration or flatspot that has been mentioned, it this smooth acceleration I think that is mistaken for the Evora being 'slower' along with how refined the cabin is, don't get me wrong the howl of the V6 is fantastic particuarly with the later exhausts but its not as manic as the Europa 4 pot its just refined. The Brakes are 100 x better solid firm and secure you know you will stop and out brake a Europa! The steering I reckon is on par with my Caterham and that is saying a lot, the press have raved over it I would say you get almost as much feedback and its telepathic it really is that good. Another criticism of the Europa is the engine vibration at certain speeds when slowing no such issue with the Evora.
I had a 130 mile journey last week in appalling rain the car felt solid and planted compared to the Europa, Lotus have spent a lot of money developing this car it shows, it shows in the handling the refinement and performance and as an every day car it is liked by the passenger my Wife liked the Europa but loves the Evora. If anyone is going to upgrade from an Elise/Europa/Exige you won't be disappointed.
Just thought the comments about the gear change Lotus have done an upgrade on the linkage so don't be too harsh untill you know you have tried one, the gear throw is still longer than the Europa but what the heck I don't think its any longer than a Golf!
Oh and the price......worth every penny, the maintenance costs do not seem that high except the rear tyres and they can be brought for 1/2 the price quoted if you shop around and they last a little longer if your not hooning around :-)
thanks, interesting to read about the Evora...they need to come down a bit more for me yet! What do you think of this Europa, roughly what does the 225 upgrade cost? The Europa is/was not everyones idea of a modern tourer, we know the interior is the same dimensions as the elise/exige it is a little softer certainly than the exige and has additional sound proofing and some extra trim. Originally the car had a lot of criticism it was not the car the press wanted and some on here made harsh comments and clearly the masses did not warm to it with only 450 ish sold.
Having said that I loved the Europa as an everyday car, some asked how i put up with it e.g. noise and getting in/out well I am supple enough and enjoyed the feedback / engine noise and drive ability of the car the boot can take a flight bag and a PC rucksack and with the 'hamster' cheeks a bit more could also be added. The down side was the crashing and skipping over bumps and you have to be mindful in the wet of what you are driving. If you have a female passanger and they are dressed up for an evening out you had better make sure the door sill is clean, don't get me wrong the driving experience is good for the driver.
The Evora has a grown up interior modern styling and a nice leather dash, has instruments that you would expect on a modern car is it slower than a Europa? no I would not say it is, in fact its smooth V6 power all the way through no sudden acceleration or flatspot that has been mentioned, it this smooth acceleration I think that is mistaken for the Evora being 'slower' along with how refined the cabin is, don't get me wrong the howl of the V6 is fantastic particuarly with the later exhausts but its not as manic as the Europa 4 pot its just refined. The Brakes are 100 x better solid firm and secure you know you will stop and out brake a Europa! The steering I reckon is on par with my Caterham and that is saying a lot, the press have raved over it I would say you get almost as much feedback and its telepathic it really is that good. Another criticism of the Europa is the engine vibration at certain speeds when slowing no such issue with the Evora.
I had a 130 mile journey last week in appalling rain the car felt solid and planted compared to the Europa, Lotus have spent a lot of money developing this car it shows, it shows in the handling the refinement and performance and as an every day car it is liked by the passenger my Wife liked the Europa but loves the Evora. If anyone is going to upgrade from an Elise/Europa/Exige you won't be disappointed.
Just thought the comments about the gear change Lotus have done an upgrade on the linkage so don't be too harsh untill you know you have tried one, the gear throw is still longer than the Europa but what the heck I don't think its any longer than a Golf!
Oh and the price......worth every penny, the maintenance costs do not seem that high except the rear tyres and they can be brought for 1/2 the price quoted if you shop around and they last a little longer if your not hooning around :-)
Edited by Toaster on Friday 11th May 20:23
Edited by Toaster on Friday 11th May 20:28
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3902354.htm
Edited by M5Fan on Monday 14th May 18:45
Edited by M5Fan on Monday 14th May 18:46
vxah said:
I would not bother with the 225 upgrade as it does not really cure the mid range flat spot these cars suffer from. With a Milltek I did show 237 bhp on the rollers at Castle sports cars but, the big dip around 3400 rpm was clear to see and feel. It seems the only way to improve the power is with a new management system.... That said MMG are working on some new software and i think Courtenay sport may have software by now?
I've read about the flat-spot on the original cars...I thought the 225 upgrade fixed this though, is that not the case then?vxah said:
Unfortunately it's not the case at all. I drove a 225 at the Cardiff dealer and it was really bad so i left it... Drove another one at Norwich and it was not as bad but i could feel it... Bought that one even though on a bad day a passenger might ask why you lifted just then? Not me, just the car! Seen a few dyno plots and it sticks out like a sore thumb, even on a stock 197hp.
Have binned the Lotus ecu now and all is smooth...
Is there a recommended ECU then? re. 237bhp, was this just with an ECU change? [edit] sorry just re-read, you changed the exhaust to get this figure??Have binned the Lotus ecu now and all is smooth...
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