Elise engine conversion: Honda v Duratec
Discussion
Say your k-series hypothetically blew it's gasket (as they all do) and you fancied a bit more power and reliability. My Elise is high mileage and a bit tatty well-used so I'm not "wasting" a nice one.
K20 and 2.0 duratec installations are similar in price, around 8k all-in to get a 200bhp installation.
Honda k20
Pros:
Tried and tested, lots of experience out there
200+ bhp
Very reliable package
6-spd box
Vtec yo!
Good demand 2nd hand when it comes to resale which helps value
Cons:
Heavy (+50kg to an s1 elise)
Issues with driveshafts?
Hard to find low-mileage engine/box nowadays
Duratec
Pros:
Lighter than the k20
Less invasive - uses same transmission/drivetrain
Crate engines available
Similar power delivery to k-series
Cons:
Less common than k20 conversion
Harder to resell
Seems to lose value more than a Honda Elise
Only 150bhp as standard so needs some tuning (cams, ITB's etc)
Secret option 3 - tune the k
Pros:
Least invasive option
Originality
Cons:
Reliability!
Any thoughts?
K20 and 2.0 duratec installations are similar in price, around 8k all-in to get a 200bhp installation.
Honda k20
Pros:
Tried and tested, lots of experience out there
200+ bhp
Very reliable package
6-spd box
Vtec yo!
Good demand 2nd hand when it comes to resale which helps value
Cons:
Heavy (+50kg to an s1 elise)
Issues with driveshafts?
Hard to find low-mileage engine/box nowadays
Duratec
Pros:
Lighter than the k20
Less invasive - uses same transmission/drivetrain
Crate engines available
Similar power delivery to k-series
Cons:
Less common than k20 conversion
Harder to resell
Seems to lose value more than a Honda Elise
Only 150bhp as standard so needs some tuning (cams, ITB's etc)
Secret option 3 - tune the k
Pros:
Least invasive option
Originality
Cons:
Reliability!
Any thoughts?
Edited by Lefty on Sunday 27th December 08:43
Nope, I've no interest in a vaj turbo, has to be NA or if going forced induction a supercharger...Is the k20 lighter than the Toyota engine?
There have been all sorts of engine conversions done including various v8's, r32 vr6 etc but if I do go down the conversion route I want something tried, tested and proven. As close as possible to the original character of the k-series and without too much of a weight penalty.
There have been all sorts of engine conversions done including various v8's, r32 vr6 etc but if I do go down the conversion route I want something tried, tested and proven. As close as possible to the original character of the k-series and without too much of a weight penalty.
Ive said:
If you want 180HP out of a naturally aspirated K with drivability, you need ITBs.. Check SELOC for regular sales ads of ITBs and air boxes. Or get a 2l block.
To do this cheap, 2nd hand parts can save a lot of money.
If you are unsure, I'd give Dave Andrews a call. He builds you any K you like or provides the parts you need if you feel confident building the engine yourself. Given you let the delicate machine work been done by the professionals, it is not that hard to do.
Ks even with high power are reliable these days freshly build as the weaknesses are now known.
In a Elise you can aid reliability by adding a electric water pump set-up. I use a DaviesCraig EWP80 plus controller. It helps eliminating one of the causes of HGF in the K, overheating cylinder heads causing them to anneal/turn soft. This usually starts in the exhaust valve area. The fire ring of the head gasket then indents the head, loses tension and fails to seal.
An other cause of HGF was porosity. DVA peens the ring area before skimming. An other way is to use a N-series head gasket. It uses a wider and flat seal section similar to most other OEM head gaskets. A shim is an other option. All solvable these days with readily available parts.
An other cause was poor liner protrusion and tilt liners due to bad manufacturing tolerances. If you build a K today this is checked, corrected and therefore no issue anymore.
There is also now a much stronger cylinder liner available preventing cracks in those higher power builds.
Then they were poorly manufactured head gaskets themself. Also fixed these days buying from the right people, e.g. Dave Andrews.
I would be surprised to see a HGF on a K these days on a proper build engine.
Of course, if your radiator leaks and you continue to drive without coolant, no technology helps saying that engine.
I have driven a K20 engined Elise and a supercharged K20 engined Elise. It is a blistering package giving the Elise a true race car feeling.
If you can afford it, do it.
Regarding supercharging the K20 in a Elise, some owners including a friend would not SC it again. It makes the car very very fast, but it is not necessarily better fun on track or the road. It makes it too fast at times. This though may be strange at first, but if you drive a very fast / powerful car a few times, you will know what I mean.
My K is supercharged with a Rotrex C30-94 and it works well. Not a low cost option, though.
It has survived a dozen trackdays unlike many factory Toyota or Audi engined cars.
Someone just got a Roots SC kit 2nd hand from a chap in Italy for about 2000 quid. Instant 230HP out of a VVC K with forged Pistons.
Today, I'd either get a 2nd hand SC setup, buy a factory SC Elise or buy a already converted Elise.
Saves the hassle unless you have a decent budget.
A factory Elise SC or S (supercharged) is a very quick car.
Avoiding ITBs on a K still gets you to very drivable and potent 160HP these days without reliability issues.
combined with a B4BP close ration gearbox it makes a very fast car both on the road and on track.
Really helpful post, thanks! To do this cheap, 2nd hand parts can save a lot of money.
If you are unsure, I'd give Dave Andrews a call. He builds you any K you like or provides the parts you need if you feel confident building the engine yourself. Given you let the delicate machine work been done by the professionals, it is not that hard to do.
Ks even with high power are reliable these days freshly build as the weaknesses are now known.
In a Elise you can aid reliability by adding a electric water pump set-up. I use a DaviesCraig EWP80 plus controller. It helps eliminating one of the causes of HGF in the K, overheating cylinder heads causing them to anneal/turn soft. This usually starts in the exhaust valve area. The fire ring of the head gasket then indents the head, loses tension and fails to seal.
An other cause of HGF was porosity. DVA peens the ring area before skimming. An other way is to use a N-series head gasket. It uses a wider and flat seal section similar to most other OEM head gaskets. A shim is an other option. All solvable these days with readily available parts.
An other cause was poor liner protrusion and tilt liners due to bad manufacturing tolerances. If you build a K today this is checked, corrected and therefore no issue anymore.
There is also now a much stronger cylinder liner available preventing cracks in those higher power builds.
Then they were poorly manufactured head gaskets themself. Also fixed these days buying from the right people, e.g. Dave Andrews.
I would be surprised to see a HGF on a K these days on a proper build engine.
Of course, if your radiator leaks and you continue to drive without coolant, no technology helps saying that engine.
I have driven a K20 engined Elise and a supercharged K20 engined Elise. It is a blistering package giving the Elise a true race car feeling.
If you can afford it, do it.
Regarding supercharging the K20 in a Elise, some owners including a friend would not SC it again. It makes the car very very fast, but it is not necessarily better fun on track or the road. It makes it too fast at times. This though may be strange at first, but if you drive a very fast / powerful car a few times, you will know what I mean.
My K is supercharged with a Rotrex C30-94 and it works well. Not a low cost option, though.
It has survived a dozen trackdays unlike many factory Toyota or Audi engined cars.
Someone just got a Roots SC kit 2nd hand from a chap in Italy for about 2000 quid. Instant 230HP out of a VVC K with forged Pistons.
Today, I'd either get a 2nd hand SC setup, buy a factory SC Elise or buy a already converted Elise.
Saves the hassle unless you have a decent budget.
A factory Elise SC or S (supercharged) is a very quick car.
Avoiding ITBs on a K still gets you to very drivable and potent 160HP these days without reliability issues.
combined with a B4BP close ration gearbox it makes a very fast car both on the road and on track.
Edited by Ive on Monday 28th December 14:50
Edited by Ive on Monday 28th December 17:21
I like the idea of building a reliable k-series, my Elise is 100% a road car, used all year round, probably 15k/year. Not looking for crazy power or ultimate performance but I want something that I can rely on. I think 150-160bhp would probably suffice but I don't have a problem with going for ITB's at a later date...
Scuffers said:
Lefty said:
There's a rover v8 vx220 that's well documented.
XV220 is not an Elise with a K series.the chassis and subframe are massively different.
also, only reason you would use a rover V8 is because you want a V8, power wise, other options are cheaper/easier.
Look, there are one-off all kinds of stuff, from Alfa V6 and Audi V6 turbo to V10/V12 installs.
BUT! there is a reason they are all one-offs.
and just because something can be done, does not make it a good idea to repeat.
Lefty said:
There have been all sorts of engine conversions done including various v8's, r32 vr6 etc but if I do go down the conversion route I want something tried, tested and proven. As close as possible to the original character of the k-series and without too much of a weight penalty.
I know a chap who honda'd his s2 and weighed the car before and after on the same weighbridge and it added 50kg.
Lots of conflicting opinions around river v Honda weight, my original quote of 50kg was based on his experience. Can't see why an s1 would be different but happy to accept it might be!
Lots of conflicting opinions around river v Honda weight, my original quote of 50kg was based on his experience. Can't see why an s1 would be different but happy to accept it might be!
That sounds about right compared to my mates tested results.
It's the same internet opinion that adds bhp to dyno curves, without the dyno chart ever being published...or with the correction factor accidentally missed from the photo...
. It's understandable enough, people spend a lot of time and/or money on conversions and sometimes feel the need to justify their decisions with "facts" to make their projects look just a little better.
It's the same internet opinion that adds bhp to dyno curves, without the dyno chart ever being published...or with the correction factor accidentally missed from the photo...
. It's understandable enough, people spend a lot of time and/or money on conversions and sometimes feel the need to justify their decisions with "facts" to make their projects look just a little better.Scuffers said:
economicpygmy said:
120kg must be without ancillaries and gearbox.
As above. The Honda K20A2 is around 40kg more than the Rover K 1.8 in the same state.
The reason I measured it was becuase I was sick of reading all the bulls
t.
with ancillaries, no gearbox.As above. The Honda K20A2 is around 40kg more than the Rover K 1.8 in the same state.
The reason I measured it was becuase I was sick of reading all the bulls
t.Gearbox is something like 41Kg's
engine holds just over 5L of oil, gearbox is under 2L
Next problem is your average weighbridge is calibrated to ~20Kg's at best for objects weighing several tonnes, not a light car.
Not saying yours is not that heavy, just that they don's have to be.
K20 + SC + IC etc etc.
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