The future of Advanced Driving.
Discussion
Following recent conversations with the esteemed group that is the AD section of PH, I am starting a new thread, in this thread I want people to suggest methods, styles etc that we feel should be replacing the old Roadcraft mantras. Let's not use this thread to discuss old stuff like BGOL and Roadcraft, let's see what emerges regarding new methodologies and systems. I'm not going to be arguing the point over things like BGOL and if we all avoid this subject we may take something from the thread that might be fresh, exciting and well worth adopting in our own driving. The ball's in your court folks.
Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Friday 10th January 18:42
p1esk said:
Hmm, I'm sorry to see there have been no responses yet, but hopefully there will be some constructive ones before too long. I'll try and get back to this later.
Good responses are now coming in Dave, might take a little while but I think this could well be a damn good thread in time! Some excellent driving talent talking about their ideas and techniques will be great, I'm not this bible-basher, I look forward to hearing what quality drivers, and I'm counting myself in there too, are using on the roads. I'm not stupid and know that there's good drivers on the road who haven't done IAM etc, that have natural talent, one of the best drivers I've ever been a passenger in with was someone who wouldn't have been seen dead with the IAM or the police. Another mechanic, he would call over usually when it was raining in his MK1 Granada 3 litre Ghia and recreate 'Swan Lake' on the road this is, he was never bothered about legality. Glory days mate. Please do come back to this thread Dave, very interested to have a bit of the benefit of your expertise, you must have had a hell of a time of it in the 70s, my favourite period in British motors history, in those days a good car had to be handled with a 'manly firmness' good car control had to be earned, no driver aids in those days!p1esk said:
Meanwhile I'm glad to see that you haven't abandoned this forum completely, though I must say I think you appear to have misunderstood the general attitude here. I don't think there is actually as much animosity as you seem to have felt.
No matter, we're still communicating, so that's a good start.
You know me better than I figured...Seriously Dave thanks so much for that, it means a lot. VH has said I might be in danger of taking things personal. I live and learn, it's all good.No matter, we're still communicating, so that's a good start.
Toltec said:
On the theme of conversations, I often think of driving in traffic as trying to have a conversation with the other people around you and coming to a mutually satisfactory agreement.
I love it when I see good driving out on the road, when it's smooth flowing and drivers are driving responsibly and well, that kind of driving isn't limited to people who do the official AD courses, good driving doesn't need a label or insignia, it speaks for itself, your analogy is a good one.Driving is similar to Music in that to say 'I know it all' is foolish in the extreme, good drivers will still be learning well into old age...'The more I learn, the less I realise I know' is it Pliny or Plato I'm not sure, actually I think it's Socrates. I read once in a biography of a big rig man in the states something along the lines of you still being a baby until you put 2 million miles on your Bulldog Mack!
Thanks for joining the thread, looking forward to hearing from you again Toltec.
MC Bodge said:
My philosophy:
Continuously observe your surroundings
Anticipate the behaviour of others
Indicate your intentions
Don't put yourself in positions where other people won't be expecting you to be
Keep the vehicle balanced as far as possible
Control the vehicle as smoothly as you can and practice being smoother at all times
Very good advise Bodge, thanks for this contribution, good to see you here. Further contribution will be appreciated as well.Continuously observe your surroundings
Anticipate the behaviour of others
Indicate your intentions
Don't put yourself in positions where other people won't be expecting you to be
Keep the vehicle balanced as far as possible
Control the vehicle as smoothly as you can and practice being smoother at all times
Hope we are good, I have read a lot of your stuff that I have SERIOUSLY rated, so let it flow, I for one want to hear what you have to say, a lot to offer this thread I reckon. Cheers.
waremark said:
The common ground between excellent drivers is not the techniques they use, but the safety smoothness and pace which come from outstanding observation anticipation and planning. As a very advanced driver you should understand the pros and cons of different techniques and make your own choices - by all means take advantage of different courses and coaches but then in the words of VH choose what works for you.
Personally I use different techniques to meet different requirements. Today, driving an old diesel Land Rover round Alpine hairpins, I chose to use rotational steering and BGOL using H&T. But for a legal drive in a different sort of vehicle in the home counties I probably would not use either of those techniques - and I certainly wouldn't if trying to impress an IAM examiner.
Very nicely stated Waremark, and very good advise, thank you. You will know that my name is a LR model, one of a few I have, you could say I collect them. The 2.5 Naturally Aspirated is my favourite engine, I can't stand doing the head gasket on an ally head, they're always warped. The NAD 12J engine has the timing belt rather than chain and the cast iron head. Having said that my 2a petrol runs like an old jag, better than a lot I've seen, you stand your cup on the rocker cover and don't spill a drop at tickover and it revs like an e-type and is virtually silent, I don't like loud lannys much, unless they're V8 although the NAD is very loud.Personally I use different techniques to meet different requirements. Today, driving an old diesel Land Rover round Alpine hairpins, I chose to use rotational steering and BGOL using H&T. But for a legal drive in a different sort of vehicle in the home counties I probably would not use either of those techniques - and I certainly wouldn't if trying to impress an IAM examiner.
I'd have liked to have been there, I'm rarely the passenger in a lanny, usually the driver all the time!
Cheers Waremark and please feel free to post, looking forward to your input.
ChilliWhizz said:
A few thoughts....
Firstly, I'm new to the AD forum, <snip> Sorry if I've woffled, and hope this is of some use to the topic....
Chilli
Welcome to the AD forums, it isn't always about training, but it is always about thinking. Advanced Drivers are a thinking bunch, that's why we hardly ever agree, as you have seen. We all agree on safety and responsibility, that's the main thing.Firstly, I'm new to the AD forum, <snip> Sorry if I've woffled, and hope this is of some use to the topic....
Chilli
You haven't waffled, your contribution is appreciated, sounds like you're in a good place driving wise, your thoughts make a lot of sense, thank you.
waremark said:
Personally I would vote for some amount of compulsory driver retraining
Agree 100%. What political party is going to commit political suicide by suggesting this? That is the problem there, I'm not getting into politics here, apart from that I think party politics is a pile of rubbish and in NO-ONE'S best interestswaremark said:
vast numbers of drivers are receiving something a bit like this through speed awareness courses. For some attendees what they hear will fall on deaf ears, but others, who would never have volunteered for a session of this kind, will surely become slightly safer as a result of attending.
The parable of the lost sheep...'one sinner that repenteth....' As you state though, for most people it's a box ticking exercise, just a way of lightening a tariff after an offense, they'll say how good it was and how much they learned, then go to the pub and tell their mates what a pile of rubbish it is and most probably do the opposite on-road, just to be bloody-minded. But like the parable, if it changes just one driver and makes them safer... R0G said:
Cliftonite said:
I believe I was being sensible, logical and realistic. Never mind!
By putting your money ahead of safety ?????? !!!!!!!!!!!Cliftonite, would you clarify what you are saying here? I think some confusion may have arisen from your earlier statement, I'm sure we have misunderstood your point.
0a said:
How about renaming it from "advanced driving" to "improving drivers" - I have to admit a lot of the bickering and the posts on this forum put me off getting involved even thought I'm not a great driver but willing to learn.
If anything I would re-name it as 'Very Advanced Driving' as most contributors will have been through IAM and RoSPA training and have had time to develop their driving further...As a driver with a willingness to improve, an admirable quality to have and an essential as far as going into the AD realm is concerned, have you considered IAM/RoSPA? For the price they are very good starting points, although we bicker endlessly about 'the system' and it's finer points, I think we would all agree that this is a good starting point in AD. I'm not saying it's the be all and end all, it isn't, but it is a good thing to have in the fabric of your driving, I think very few will disagree on this point, some areas of the training may be a little fuddy-duddy and a little pedantic, but things like the forward obs side and the hazard perception side are well worth having down, some of the more seemingly pedantic areas, such as the dreaded bgol, are training tools to get the driver thinking about what they're doing at all times, and can be taken the wrong way, they are not a case of 'you must do this or that' merely a case of 'you must be thinking at all times' about what you are doing.
Don't let the bickering put you off, there are a great many areas on which we all completely agree, most contributors have 'the system' down well and are in a position to criticise and debate it's merits and failings, we all enjoy a good debate and I personally have seen excellent wisdom emerge from these discussions. I'd recommend doing it, as far as driver training goes they are very cheap, you get a certificate at the end and the option to join the organisation and to go further with things like observer training which is also very good. These are a good jumping off point, not the be all and end all, but a good thing to have. I think most would agree with this. The fact that you are even open to the fact that you could use some improvement makes you well better than average already imo, the common factor to all of our attitudes and methods is going to be that safety and responsibility will be at the very top of the list, the techniques used may vary, but that fact is never going to...
rsv gone! said:
When I did my speed awareness course (which I was surprised to find interesting and not condescending) only three of us had taken any further training - and we were all bikers.
I find with bikeys, and I have considerable experience with bike mechanics and have a few off roaders and have done a bit, that they are generally more mechanically minded and more at one with their machine than a lot of drivers, they usually know where the oil and water go and obviously are aware of things like balance and good cornering to a greater level than a lot of car drivers.Toltec said:
Less a matter of doing something dangerous to avoid the law.
I didn't think for a minute he was suggesting anything along those lines. I think his post was worded in a way that was a little bit open to mis-interpretation, a common thing with forum speak.Insignia? I guess that's a Vauxhall model then. Never heard of it.
So having browsed another forum recently I see that the current edition of Roadcraft has some alterations regarding steering methods. These may take a while to be assimilated into the IAM, as has been suggested.
Last I has anything to do with IAM they seemed to be going towards a new steering method, a form of small bite pull-push that I and others could only call 'shuffling' it didn't seem a very good method, I can't elaborate further because I dropped out of IAM at that point over un-related matters.
I'm always on hand to recommend the training and feel the IAM methods are sound FOR ME. However the social side of IAM wasn't for me but could well be for others.
It's a well known fact that I myself have a very old school attitude toward my own driving, old Roadcraft, separation, pull-push, I enjoy all these things. It's a fact that I would like to be back in the 60s and 70s, perhaps pull-pushing in an old Oxford or Cambridge. It might be pertinent for me to mention that 90% of my driving is in vehicles with technology developed in the 1950s, that may explain a lot to people about where I'm at currently, big steering wheels, no PAS. Although I do have modern vehicles but I still drive them the same way. Now that is me, it's how I am, it isn't for everyone and the purpose of my starting this thread is to gain insight into what is going on at the sharp end of AD. Me being as it were at the 'blunt' or 'dull' end! My purpose isn't going to be arguing about the system and any changes people make in their own drive, also changes which they may feel should be included in 21st century AD, but to learn what these thoughts are and hopefully learn a lot along the way.
I can't see my style changing anytime soon but that isn't to negate ideas which may come through, admittedly probably from a lot of drivers who are way better than I. Better drivers than myself feel that change is long overdue in this field and hopefully will dispense some good advice that drivers like me can all nick and try in our own drive.
Last I has anything to do with IAM they seemed to be going towards a new steering method, a form of small bite pull-push that I and others could only call 'shuffling' it didn't seem a very good method, I can't elaborate further because I dropped out of IAM at that point over un-related matters.
I'm always on hand to recommend the training and feel the IAM methods are sound FOR ME. However the social side of IAM wasn't for me but could well be for others.
It's a well known fact that I myself have a very old school attitude toward my own driving, old Roadcraft, separation, pull-push, I enjoy all these things. It's a fact that I would like to be back in the 60s and 70s, perhaps pull-pushing in an old Oxford or Cambridge. It might be pertinent for me to mention that 90% of my driving is in vehicles with technology developed in the 1950s, that may explain a lot to people about where I'm at currently, big steering wheels, no PAS. Although I do have modern vehicles but I still drive them the same way. Now that is me, it's how I am, it isn't for everyone and the purpose of my starting this thread is to gain insight into what is going on at the sharp end of AD. Me being as it were at the 'blunt' or 'dull' end! My purpose isn't going to be arguing about the system and any changes people make in their own drive, also changes which they may feel should be included in 21st century AD, but to learn what these thoughts are and hopefully learn a lot along the way.
I can't see my style changing anytime soon but that isn't to negate ideas which may come through, admittedly probably from a lot of drivers who are way better than I. Better drivers than myself feel that change is long overdue in this field and hopefully will dispense some good advice that drivers like me can all nick and try in our own drive.
Toltec said:
What do people think about using your left foot to brake in automatics or semi-automatics?
I use this quite often, in my Smart where the brake pedal is set well to the left it is my standard way of driving it, in my wife's BMW I use either foot depending on the situation.
Examples-
At a mini-roundabout where you end up in a Mexican standoff if you decide to take the initiative at same time as the vehicle to the right does you can be on the brake without the extra delay of moving your foot.
Approaching a side road where you feel there is a possibility a driver will pull out you can easily maintain a steady approach speed while also covering the brake. Particularly useful while travelling uphill.
Interesting to hear people's views on this. It's not something I do when driving autos, but if it's done with aforethought as part of a driving plan I don't see an issue.I use this quite often, in my Smart where the brake pedal is set well to the left it is my standard way of driving it, in my wife's BMW I use either foot depending on the situation.
Examples-
At a mini-roundabout where you end up in a Mexican standoff if you decide to take the initiative at same time as the vehicle to the right does you can be on the brake without the extra delay of moving your foot.
Approaching a side road where you feel there is a possibility a driver will pull out you can easily maintain a steady approach speed while also covering the brake. Particularly useful while travelling uphill.
Actually if you ever get to drive, or have driven any of the old American cars with auto trans, the 'handbrake' well parkbrake, is operated by the left foot. It's a pedal near the side of the driver's footwell on a ratchet system, you press it down firmly with your foot and to release it you pull a lever in the dash and it springs up, you pull the lever and twist and it releases the ratchet pawl. An interesting way to hill start. We used to left foot brake, when stopped, just enough to activate the front brakes so we could burn out, an alternative to fitting a line lock, which we also fitted many of...
Not quite the same as what you are describing. I'm not negating any ideas whatsoever in this thread, I purely want to see what ideas are out there and am having a completely open mind about them.
I love to push the case for Pull-Push steering and separating out the brake and gearchange in the threads about these techniques, a lot of it is tongue in cheek, I know how passionate a lot are about these techniques, I just enjoy the stylish side of them and don't view them as essential things that everyone must use.
You have witnessed first hand the reaction to my views on following distance, none of that was tongue in cheek though, I really meant it. Often I'm shot down in flames, I don't mind, I live and learn. It's all good.
vonhosen said:
Teaching people car control.
There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
Hi Von, thank you for adding some input here, it is very much appreciated.There is wider evidence (outside of driving) that training without dealing with the psychology (attitudes/beliefs etc) leads to greater risk not reduced risk. Dealing with the psychology (learning a physical skill through a medium that addresses the psychology) is key.
I was reading some interesting discourse from you recently at 'the other place' something along the lines of Chris Gilbert being mistaken over steering techniques. Please feel free to give us some insight into your recommendations apropos steering techniques, if recommendations is the right word, I know you favour 'coaching' over 'instruction' are these two concepts not synonymous with one-another? Or is it that in coaching you suggest an idea to the mentee, in order for him/her to imagine it was their own idea, whereas in instruction you simply impart your own idea as being the best and insist that it is used?
Either way I'm interested in your views on steering, what techniques or combinations of techniques do you advocate? Or are you easy as long as the desired outcomes are achieved? Do you consider pull-push as an option rather than a doctrine or is pull-push a relic from the 50s and no longer valid with modern steering technology? If so please elaborate on this point when you aren't too busy.
Thanks and looking forward to further input from your good self. Best wishes.
vonhosen said:
I don't believe I said Chris Gilbert was mistaken, he'll have his views, which he can articulate & I'll have mine. Other people can listen to what others say & decide for themselves.
Coaching & instruction are very different.
Coaching is a conversation about development. A conversation where we want to explore what the coachee want's to achieve, what happens now for them, what options to change are open for them & what path out of those options they wish to pursue. After they've had a go at that we'll then reflect on it & how they make sense of the experience (through thoughts/feelings) & where that leads them to next. You can see that they are at the centre of it all. What they want, what they think are the options, what they want to try, how they feel about it, what they think about it, what their choice is & what happens for them as a result. They are responsible for it all, good or bad.
With instruction the instructor takes all the responsibility. What we are doing today is...., This is going wrong & it's because you do this. What you need to do is do this this.
When it comes to steering I advocate doing what gives you good results. With a variety of situations, for me they'll be a variety of what works best for me. What I aim to do is recognise the situation, the needs of the situation & the most beneficial method for me to get optimal performance in that situation & then implement. Post event reflect on & learn from it. What went well, what didn't, what do I think needs changing, what options for change are there & what I'm going to try next time (if need be). Nothing promotes a desire for change in people than experiencing difficulties or feeling restricted by your chosen method. Of course not experiencing any difficulties or feeling restricted by your method is far less likely to promote a desire for change.
Pull/push is one method, better in some circumstances than it is in others. It's one I'll use at times, but I'm not tied to it.
Thanks for this valued input. Clarified a few points for me regarding coaching. Now if this had been the case at IAM I might have continued the observing. I felt the criticism of someone's drive and the giving instructions side were something I didn't feel comfortable doing. Good points on steering too, I pull-push myself but am confident with predictive or fixed input whatever name is given to it and will use them at will, I too am not tied to techniques because of dogma, although it may seem like it by some of my input regarding bgol, but I see debating bgol as a contact sport and a blood thirsty one at that, a lot of it is tongue in cheek from me.Coaching & instruction are very different.
Coaching is a conversation about development. A conversation where we want to explore what the coachee want's to achieve, what happens now for them, what options to change are open for them & what path out of those options they wish to pursue. After they've had a go at that we'll then reflect on it & how they make sense of the experience (through thoughts/feelings) & where that leads them to next. You can see that they are at the centre of it all. What they want, what they think are the options, what they want to try, how they feel about it, what they think about it, what their choice is & what happens for them as a result. They are responsible for it all, good or bad.
With instruction the instructor takes all the responsibility. What we are doing today is...., This is going wrong & it's because you do this. What you need to do is do this this.
When it comes to steering I advocate doing what gives you good results. With a variety of situations, for me they'll be a variety of what works best for me. What I aim to do is recognise the situation, the needs of the situation & the most beneficial method for me to get optimal performance in that situation & then implement. Post event reflect on & learn from it. What went well, what didn't, what do I think needs changing, what options for change are there & what I'm going to try next time (if need be). Nothing promotes a desire for change in people than experiencing difficulties or feeling restricted by your chosen method. Of course not experiencing any difficulties or feeling restricted by your method is far less likely to promote a desire for change.
Pull/push is one method, better in some circumstances than it is in others. It's one I'll use at times, but I'm not tied to it.
Thanks VH, very interesting input.
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