What am I doing wrong? Changing Lanes on a Motorway

[RobM77]

Three similar incidents in two days. Here's what I did:

1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.

2. I'm in lane 2 of the M3 overtaking vehicles in lane 1 when I come across a slower car in lane 2. So, I start looking at lane 3 with a view to moving out there to overtake the slower car and then back to lane 2. I spot a gap that's coming up in a few seconds and it'll be fine for me to maintain my speed and change lanes before I reach the slower car. So, I continue at the same speed and when the driver's door of the car at the front of the gap has passed mine, I check all is still well and indicate. The car at the rear of the gap isn't going particularly fast and there's plenty of room, so I slot in with safe gaps in front and behind of me. I gain a couple of mph to blend with the traffic better, and move back to lane 2, still with a safe space all around me.

3. The same as above, M3 in the other direction and the vehicle behind me in lane 3 is a motorbike instead of a car.

In all three of the above, the car behind (at the rear of the gap I've pulled into) has flashed me and the driver gesticulated (except for the bike, who just shook his head at me). In numbers 1 and 2, sooner afterwards, I've witnessed another car dive in front of the same car without indicating and causing them to brake, but with no reaction at all as far as I could see - no flash, no hand signals, nothing.

I try very hard to blend in and not affect anyone around me, and I've had advanced training and read roadcraft, so I understand MSM/CMSBGA, keeping a safe space around me etc etc, but I seem to pick up mild road rage like the above inicdents on average about every other day (i.e. once every 150-200 miles). I've checked and my indicators and all lights are clearly visible and working. Obviously, doing the sort of mileage I do, 95% of it on the motorway, I change lanes countless times without road rage; it's the small percentage of people who lose it that just makes me wonder.

Am I doing anything wrong, or is this just inevitable every now and then? Does anyone have any tips for avoiding road rage? I've tried thanking people with a slow raise of my hand, but it doesn't seem to change things.

[RobM77]

trashbat said:

So it's easy to over-analyse the text, which usually doesn't represent the physical act of driving very well, but since we're looking for something wrong, I'll poke at this:

RobM77 said:

When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap

Why are you indicating when alongside the car, rather than alongside the gap? This looks like you're going to cut them up, even if you don't.

Why are you leaving a pause? This looks like indecision or confusion, and it suggests you need to seek permission, which in turn suggests you're forcing it rather than smoothly blending in.

Surely it's simple. Find a gap, get the speed right, get alongside it such that you can see the car behind in your rear view mirror, indicate if necessary, move in, and you shouldn't have to brake when in the new lane.

Thanks - some good thoughts. I'm indicating when the first driver's just ahead of me because it's the earliest opportunity to signal to the chap behind hiim when my indicators are out of his peripheral vision and he won't think I'm going to change lanes on top of him (if he mistakes me for an 'indicate as you move' type). I'm signalling to the guy at the rear of the gap of course, and I just want to do it as early as possible to give him plenty of warning.

I leave a pause to allow people to plan what to do next. I'm a firm believe in mirror signal manouevre, rather than squashing them all on top of each other and surprising people.

[RobM77]

Regarding the car I'm driving, yes, all of these incidents are when in my BMW. I often drive my wife's Honda Civic Type R, my Lotus 2-Eleven a few times a year for trackdays, and hire cars with work (the usual thing - Vauxhalls, Fords, Peugeots etc) and have never (as far as my memory serves me, I do actually mean never) had any road rage in any of those.

[RobM77]

R_U_LOCAL said:

A couple of things you might want to consider OP.

Firstly, how is your speed assessment of other vehicles?

And secondly, how long do you actually spend looking in the mirror?

Both questions are related to a degree, as either or both of these issues can affect your ability to correctly assess whether a gap is opening, constant or closing.

With reference to the first question, it can be extremely difficult to assess the speed of a vehicle moving towards you when you're simply standing by the side of the road. Add in the additional factors of sitting in a well insulated car, travelling at speed yourself, and trying to assess the speed of a vehicle through the limited letter-box sized rear-view mirror, and assessing a vehicle's speed becomes very difficult indeed.

With reference to the second question, a quick glance in the mirror is a bit like taking a still photograph. It gives you a clear picture of the vehicles behind and their positions, but it can then be difficult to put that picture into context because a photograph - like a quick glance - doesn't show the speeds of the vehicles behind, and more importantly, the speed of those vehicles relative to each other.

I always adivise that mirror checks on the motorway - particularly when you're planning to change lanes - should take at the very least a second, and sometimes much longer. You need to build up a clear understanding of the relative speeds of vehicles behind so that you can decide whether the gaps between them are opening up, constant, or closing.

Moving into an opening or constant gap rarely results in an aggressive response from following drivers, but moving into a closing gap can and does often result in an aggressive response (irrespective of whether it's justified or not) from the next vehicle behind, as they often think you're forcing them to reduce their speed.

Using the principles of critical self analysis discussed here...

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

...the next time you're on the motorway, don't change anything about your driving, but pay attention to how long you spend looking in the mirror and how you assess vehicle speeds and gaps between vehicles. Be critical of yourself and see if anything I've mentioned above is relevant to you.

Then, on subsequent journeys, try spending longer looking in the mirror and see if it makes a differrence.

You should also bear in mind that there are a lot of bellends out there, and it's inevitable that you will occasionally encounter some of them if you use motorways regularly

Pretty good to be honest, given all the racing I've done. This is especially relevant in testing when amongst other types of racing car, when it's important to keep lap times consistent and therefore to judge when a faster car will pass you and vice versa, to within a split second so it doesn't cause either of you to change speed or course too much. The last team I drove for often commented on how well I did that.

I have a feeling it might be my BMW, rather than me. I was in a Peugeot last week and didn't have any trouble at all.

[RobM77]

TurboHatchback said:

My guess is that you're pulling in way to close in front of them. You should only pull in to the lane when you are a safe distance in front of the car in the lane you are pulling in to. If we accept the two second rule and they are doing 70mph then that is 31m or 6-7 car lengths in front. The fact that you say you start indicating when beside them makes it very much sound like you are cutting in very close in front of them which is dangerous and really pisses me off so I imagine it does others too.

No, a safe distance. I think you've misunderstood the indicating alongside thing.

However, this does seem the most likely thing, but what puzzled me was when I saw the Fiat 500 pull right in front of one of them with about a 1 metre gap without indicating (which i think i mentioned), and the same driver didn't react at all!

[RobM77]

I can see I'm not explaining this very well! The guy who's alongside me when I indicate in all three situations never saw me indicating - that's the whole point - I wait until he's just ahead of me and he can't see me indicating - he just continues at his normal speed past me, and then when he's a safe distance in front of me and I'm still a safe distance in front of the guy behind him, I slot into the gap between them and cancel my indicator. Nothing complicated at all, just a very basic lane change.

Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 20th September 17:36

[RobM77]

andywaterfall said:

RobM77 said:

I can see I'm not explaining this very well!

RobM77 said:

Three similar incidents in two days. Here's what I did:

1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.

No, maybe not

Maybe I've misunderstood again, but are you saying you go past the gap til you're alongside the car ahead of the gap, indicate left, then slow down to slot into the gap? That's a weird way of doing it!

Edited by andywaterfall on Saturday 20th September 19:46

Ah, sorry, I thought you were referring to the other two situations where I was overtaking.

[RobM77]

I can assure everyone here that what I was doing was safe and the gaps were certainly a lot bigger than anywhere else in sight on that stretch of motorway and yes, the gaps were safe. What does interest me though is indicating, which a couple of posters mention above. I wonder if my "please may I move here? Thank you very much" approach actually annoys people more than the usual "I'm here" approach that most drivers favour as they dart into a gap, indicating after they start the move. This is the one thing I do differently to other drivers...

[RobM77]

Some good thoughts there, thanks.

I should add that whilst I get this sort of thing once every other day, I do drive about 650 miles a week, so it's a very low percentage of lane changes. I've also yet to experience any road rage in another make of car (including 3 months I spent in an Audi A4 last year), or in any other country other than the UK, so the BMW effect in the UK may well be contributing.

[RobM77]

R0G said:

I tend never to signal into lane 1 - why would I need to? - if I am going to or likely to cause another to change speed or direction then I should not be doing it

Length or application of signal for other things will depend on situation at the time

It helps people make decisions. In the above example, if someone in lane 3 was thinking of changing into lane 2, or perhaps a faster car behind you in lane 2 is thinking about overtaking you, then it's very helpful to know that you're about to move into lane 1.

[RobM77]

Sorry, I obviously didn't explain myself well enough. I'm well clear of the other car when I signal, in fact the only thing causing me to wait is the as advance notice that I think is polite and proper.

[RobM77]

talksthetorque said:

Have you been out and checked your lights yet?

All my lights report back to the iDrive that notifies me of faults immediately, but yes, I also do a manual check about once a week when I do the tyre pressures etc.

[RobM77]

silentbrown said:

RobM77 said:

Pretty good to be honest, given all the racing I've done.

Ah. A good gap on track is one you can fit a fag paper in, from what I recall.

Not for a moment suggesting you drive like that on the road, but it's easy to forget about the "2 second rule". In queues most folk with what they consider a 'safe gap' (often *much* less than 2 secs) and don't anticipate what will happen if someone moves into it.

I always found the drive back from a circuit with the racecar on a trailer was a great way of recalibrating safe gaps and stopping distances.

He was just asking what my spatial awareness is like, rather than my appreciation of what a safe gap is

[RobM77]

9mm said:

watchnut said:

If the traffic is heavy, the gaps will be shorter, therefore those that have been patient and are over in lane 1 earlier may feel a little aggrieved when some one over takes, and jumps into the "gap" they created for themselves causing them to lift off the gas or brake.

It'll be this. ANYTHING that causes another driver to lift (out of caution) if not to slow, let alone brake, risks a negative reaction. Let's face it, last minute exits are commonplace and a frequent cause of near misses and accidents. I suspect you're perceived to be in that group of drivers who seem to leave exits as late as possible to make progress.

There's no way I forced a driver to lift in any of the situations. They really were quite a way back.

[RobM77]

9mm said:

RobM77 said:

9mm said:

watchnut said:

If the traffic is heavy, the gaps will be shorter, therefore those that have been patient and are over in lane 1 earlier may feel a little aggrieved when some one over takes, and jumps into the "gap" they created for themselves causing them to lift off the gas or brake.

It'll be this. ANYTHING that causes another driver to lift (out of caution) if not to slow, let alone brake, risks a negative reaction. Let's face it, last minute exits are commonplace and a frequent cause of near misses and accidents. I suspect you're perceived to be in that group of drivers who seem to leave exits as late as possible to make progress.

There's no way I forced a driver to lift in any of the situations. They really were quite a way back.

You said:

1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.

It doesn't sound as if traffic was light. If it was, why the need for so much road positioning and and slowing at all? Secondly, if you start the move at the lower end of your distance estimate, you are only going to get into the ns lane a hundred yards or so before the exit and that is going to be very late in the eyes of some drivers. It does appear you don't believe you did anything wrong but if you are getting reactions from other drivers you must be doing something wrong, at least in their eyes.

I see people making what I would call unnecessary and last minute exits all the time. Whilst I never feel the need to admonish them in any way, I can see why others would, especially if they are very risk averse, or, as I say, they have to make any adjustment at all to accommodate what they regard as a poor bit of driving. I think what goes through their mind, is what goes through mine - why couldn't you have got into the right lane a lot further back up the road?

You're making a lot of assumptions there!

half a mile = 880 yards
quarter of a mile = 440 yards

If it's a polite pause before the III marker, I see no problem on a lightly trafficed motorway if there's a nice big gap. This wasn't a last minute dash on a crowded rush hour motorway, we were coming back from the coast from a day out - there were a few cars in lane one and a very light scattering in lanes two and three.

[RobM77]

silentbrown said:

RobM77 said:

They really were quite a way back.

What - roughly - was the gap between the two cars (i.e. the gap you were slotting into) in case 1? I assume traffic was moving at around 70ish...

Gosh - we're talking three months ago! I do remember the Honda Civic one quoted above and it was quite a distance - certainly not enough to cause alarm and a very standard distance, plus some, to change lanes on a motorway.

[RobM77]

9mm said:

RobM77 said:

9mm said:

RobM77 said:

9mm said:

watchnut said:

If the traffic is heavy, the gaps will be shorter, therefore those that have been patient and are over in lane 1 earlier may feel a little aggrieved when some one over takes, and jumps into the "gap" they created for themselves causing them to lift off the gas or brake.

It'll be this. ANYTHING that causes another driver to lift (out of caution) if not to slow, let alone brake, risks a negative reaction. Let's face it, last minute exits are commonplace and a frequent cause of near misses and accidents. I suspect you're perceived to be in that group of drivers who seem to leave exits as late as possible to make progress.

There's no way I forced a driver to lift in any of the situations. They really were quite a way back.

You said:

1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.

It doesn't sound as if traffic was light. If it was, why the need for so much road positioning and and slowing at all? Secondly, if you start the move at the lower end of your distance estimate, you are only going to get into the ns lane a hundred yards or so before the exit and that is going to be very late in the eyes of some drivers. It does appear you don't believe you did anything wrong but if you are getting reactions from other drivers you must be doing something wrong, at least in their eyes.

I see people making what I would call unnecessary and last minute exits all the time. Whilst I never feel the need to admonish them in any way, I can see why others would, especially if they are very risk averse, or, as I say, they have to make any adjustment at all to accommodate what they regard as a poor bit of driving. I think what goes through their mind, is what goes through mine - why couldn't you have got into the right lane a lot further back up the road?

You're making a lot of assumptions there!

half a mile = 880 yards
quarter of a mile = 440 yards

If it's a polite pause before the III marker, I see no problem on a lightly trafficed motorway if there's a nice big gap. This wasn't a last minute dash on a crowded rush hour motorway, we were coming back from the coast from a day out - there were a few cars in lane one and a very light scattering in lanes two and three.

Assumptions about what? I quoted your post word for word.

So, if traffic was light, and ASSUMING you knew the road, why give yourself less than half a mile to get into the right lane at motorway speeds?

Why else? Because the left hand lane was moving slower than I wanted to move to make progress.

[RobM77]

9mm said:

RobM77 said:

9mm said:

RobM77 said:

9mm said:

RobM77 said:

9mm said:

watchnut said:

If the traffic is heavy, the gaps will be shorter, therefore those that have been patient and are over in lane 1 earlier may feel a little aggrieved when some one over takes, and jumps into the "gap" they created for themselves causing them to lift off the gas or brake.

It'll be this. ANYTHING that causes another driver to lift (out of caution) if not to slow, let alone brake, risks a negative reaction. Let's face it, last minute exits are commonplace and a frequent cause of near misses and accidents. I suspect you're perceived to be in that group of drivers who seem to leave exits as late as possible to make progress.

There's no way I forced a driver to lift in any of the situations. They really were quite a way back.

You said:

1. My wife and I are driving down the M27 on Sunday and coming off at the next slip road; I'm driving. We're in lane 2 overtaking a range of vehicles in lane 1, and I spot quite a good sized gap in lane 1, which, by the time I get to it, will be about half a mile to a quarter of a mile from the exit. Perfect. When I get alongside the car at the back of the gap, I check all is still well and indicate. Then, after a polite pause and when my car is in a suitable safe place in the gap, I check and the car at the rear hasn't sped up and all is still safe, so I slowly move over and cancel the indicator when all four wheels are within the lane. Not much slowing down needed and the gap was perfectly safe.

It doesn't sound as if traffic was light. If it was, why the need for so much road positioning and and slowing at all? Secondly, if you start the move at the lower end of your distance estimate, you are only going to get into the ns lane a hundred yards or so before the exit and that is going to be very late in the eyes of some drivers. It does appear you don't believe you did anything wrong but if you are getting reactions from other drivers you must be doing something wrong, at least in their eyes.

I see people making what I would call unnecessary and last minute exits all the time. Whilst I never feel the need to admonish them in any way, I can see why others would, especially if they are very risk averse, or, as I say, they have to make any adjustment at all to accommodate what they regard as a poor bit of driving. I think what goes through their mind, is what goes through mine - why couldn't you have got into the right lane a lot further back up the road?

You're making a lot of assumptions there!

half a mile = 880 yards
quarter of a mile = 440 yards

If it's a polite pause before the III marker, I see no problem on a lightly trafficed motorway if there's a nice big gap. This wasn't a last minute dash on a crowded rush hour motorway, we were coming back from the coast from a day out - there were a few cars in lane one and a very light scattering in lanes two and three.

Assumptions about what? I quoted your post word for word.

So, if traffic was light, and ASSUMING you knew the road, why give yourself less than half a mile to get into the right lane at motorway speeds?

Why else? Because the left hand lane was moving slower than I wanted to move to make progress.

Nothing is going to convince you that you did anything wrong so I'm out.

Well, surely if a reasonably intelligent person with advanced training makes a post on PH asking a question such as the one I did, then he's already considered the obvious?! If I pull in too close to someone or make them change their course or speed, it takes me about half a second to realise that I've cocked up and I apologise (it does happen occasonally). It wouldn't take three months to work it out If someone can explain this properly then I'm all ears - being wrong is wonderful, as it's how you learn and I'm certainy not scared of being wrong, which is why I made the post asking the queston in the first place.

[RobM77]

silentbrown said:

RobM77 said:

Gosh - we're talking three months ago! I do remember the Honda Civic one quoted above and it was quite a distance - certainly not enough to cause alarm and a very standard distance, plus some, to change lanes on a motorway.

No total recall? DISMISSED

I meant to ask what would you normally consider 'quite a distance' when pulling in L, rather than the specifics.

My point is that everyone has a different view of what constitutes a safe distance. If I was leaving a 5 car-length gap (hint: at 70mph, I wouldn't be happy with that), and you pull into the middle of it, I've suddenly lost 60% of my gap. You've matched speed, so I don't need to lift to avoid a collision, but I do need to lift to re-establish my idea of a safe gap. And that effect concertinas back.

I think to be honest that's the only possibility I can think of. I do leave a much bigger gap than most people. I tend to judge it on the fly depending no weather conditions, speed etc, but I suspect it's probably about 2 seconds, which I've always thought to be a good simple rule of thumb. I can check this evening driving home.

[RobM77]

I think it's the most likely explanation. Personally I think 440 yards is fine as a minimum to get into lane 1 before an exit, provided you're not causing anyone to change their speed, course or plan. I guess people vary on that one.