Differences between mainland Europe & UK - roads and drivers

[RobM77]

My wife and I have just returned from a 2,000 mile tour around mainland Europe, visiting France, Germany, Austria, Luxemborg and Belgium. We drove on a variety of roads (motorway, cities, country etc) at a variety of times of day and days of the week (including rush hour) and the difference from the UK was very noticeable, both in the quality of the roads and the quality of driving. I was wondering what people thought and whether they agreed or not?

Regarding the roads:

• Around 90-95% of the motorway equivalent roads had a different surface to the UK, which was not only smoother but noticeably quieter; the difference in noise compared to the UK really was very noticeable indeed.

• Most countries had a low tech answer to the new fangled lane change warnings in modern cars – stripey paint between lanes that hums gently as you change lanes; something I’ve never seen in the UK (we just have the ribbed solid line demarking the hard shoulder).

• Some single carriageway “A roads” had barriers down the middle, particularly in accident hot spots and faster sections, which surely must make a huge contribution to road safety.

• As has been the case for years now, all motorway junctions have closer dotted lines between lane 1 and lane 2, discouraging lane changing at junctions for improved safety.

• There were plenty of areas where HGV overtaking was banned during peak times. My commute on the A34 and A303 needs this so badly!!

• Lower speed limits for caravans and HGVs were commonplace in areas of crosswinds or steep downhills, as were different speed limits for all vehicles in wet and dry weather.

• Another neat idea were signs at roadworks and traffic lights asking drivers to switch their engines off when stationary, which made a noticeable different to noise and pollution. There’s a level crossing near our house in the UK where cars often have to wait for five minutes or more and it’s so noisy and smelly sometimes, we could really do with that!

• On motorway equivalent roads there were boards showing the cost of fuel a few kilometres before each service station – very useful.

• There was a rather nice lack of speed bumps in urban areas. I don’t think I crossed one speed bump during the whole holiday.

• Speed limits on the whole seemed more sensible on motorways (i.e. higher – typically 130kph), and perhaps as a result, when speed limits were lower they were generally obeyed.

• One negative was the frequent road closures due to roadworks without any diversions in place. For example, for the G7 summit in Garmisch-Partenkirchen, the police closed all the roads approaching the town at quite a large radius (20-30 miles perhaps), but didn’t offer a single diversion. We were travelling from East to West past GP and tried many routes unsuccessfully, finally ending up finding a route, but it wasted about an hour or two of our time. At other times, we came across roadworks blocking main routes through towns and had to take to residential streets to find a way round, with no guidance or diversions in place at all.

Regarding the drivers, things were just so much better:

• Aggression: There was far less jostling for space and general aggravation than in the UK. I didn’t witness one road rage incident in our entire time, compared with the several I’ve seen since our return to the UK since just Sunday evening. I also completed plenty of overtaking manoeuvres on single carriageway roads and not once did I get flashed or get hand signals etc from the driver being overtaken – something fairly common in the UK even if you overtake by the book and very carefully.

• Indicating: Indicating properly (i.e. prior to a move) seems far more common in Europe than it is in the UK, where it has virtually disappeared altogether, with about a third of drivers never indicating and the rest just flicking an indicator on after they’ve started their move.

• This is a subtle thing, and I doubt I can report this reliably, but I didn’t notice prejudicial treatment against certain makes or types of car like in the UK.

• Anticipation: In the UK, when overtaking cars in lane one, I’ve noticed that if drivers in lane one are about to come across a slower vehicle such as a lorry, those people normally drive up to the lorry and then brake and look for a gap in lane 2, whereas I noticed in mainland Europe virtually all drivers seemed to be looking ahead enough to indicate and move round the lorry without changing their speed. The reason this helps traffic flow is that in the UK it means a 60mph car joining lane 2 and slowing traffic, which causes bunching, where abroad if a car in lane one moves over at 115kph, 130kph traffic can ease of the gas gently and then get back up to speed again without affecting the flow of traffic.

• Accidents: We didn’t pass the scene of any accidents at all in 2,000 miles over 16 days. Since arriving back in Folkestone on Sunday evening I’ve been stuck in two queues caused by accidents and witnessed one yesterday afternoon on my way home from work. I realise this is proportional to traffic density, but I’d genuinely like to see accident data per car for different countries as it seemed lower abroad.

• Obstructive pavement parking: This didn’t seem to exist in Europe, even in the suburbs when we diverted due to road closures, but it’s prevalent in the UK.

• It’s not all positive, there were some odd cultural phenomena, such as in Germany it seemed commonplace to pull out in front of other drivers on single carriageway roads causing them to slow (weirdly I didn't see this in other countries). I never saw anyone flash or get irritated when this happened, it just seemed normal. Not a huge issue, but curious nonetheless. As has always been the case, tailgating on motorways is common abroad, esp in France, but it doesn’t seem to be in malice at all, it’s just normal (often those same people moved back in with me after my overtake and even waved me out at the next lorry etc). Those things weren’t so good, but by and large the driving standards were much better than the UK; that really has been quite noticeable today and yesterday during my commute to work in the UK.

Any comments? In terms of the drivers, do they have harder driving tests abroad? A clearer more widely read Highway Code? Are the differences cultural? In terms of the roads, are they better funded?

[RobM77]

It's certainly a culture shock when you rejoin the M25 in the UK! The surface is noisy, there's very poor lane discipline, aggressive drivers and on Sunday we got stuck in a huge queue due to an accident within half an hour of leaving Folkestone, and then another one later on!

[RobM77]

Robert Elise said:

this topic comes up regularly. I won't say that the observations are wrong but i would suggest that sometimes people return from the continent with a slightly rose tinted view because they've driven a lot of motorways. This is because the motorways are normally far less busy and benefit from one difference i do think is valid: lane discipline. French autoroutes are often empty as they cost so much too (i think over £50-ish one-way to Chamonix). Off the autoroute and things become far less disciplined.
To generalise, i think UK is still quite good on A & B roads but bad on M'way and i've often wondered why. Maybe the more formal training instills a respect of the autoroute? Maybe the policing is stronger (in recent past if not these days, they would stop you for lack of indication) or maybe they are culturally used to it as many autoroutes are only 2 lanes, it's our 3 lane system that allowed people to grow up lazy.

Also, rush hour driving abroad can also be quite pushy, and holiday makers are less likely to drive in rush hour on urban roads.

Very true, although I had assumed that until we went through rush hour Stuttgart (yuk!) and yes, it was extremely busy, but generally was much better than a similar situation in the UK because not so many people were trying to barge in and get a few cars ahead etc.

Regarding motorways, 99% of my UK driving is dual carriageway and motorways so the type of driving was very similar to what I do daily for work.

[RobM77]

Moonhawk said:

monamimate said:

I agree with A&B roads and m'way differences in driving, in general terms.
Indeed, driver training in Austria, France, Belgium (and probably others) includes motorway driving. Very sensible and it shows on the road

I do find it a little odd that we don't have that in the UK.

But I also find it odd that despite the apparently better driver training - all of those countries have a higher fatality rate on their roads compared to the UK.

As others have pointed out - there is more than a hint of "rose tint" when viewing driving on the continent.

Fatality rate is down to a lot of factors though. The chap above is complaining about Spanish driving, yet Spain have 3.6 fatalities per 100k inhabitants, which isn't that different from our 3.5; I do however believe him (I've not driven in Spain, so have to go on his account). Factors that could influence fatality rates are the types of roads and average speeds, population density (check out the fatality rates in Belgium or the Netherlands! Or conversely Iceland, which is very low, and that's despite the snow and ice), weather conditions (Finland is very high for example), where the population are mainly based (Norway's freakishly low because despite the snow and ice, most Norwegians live in Oslo) etc.

ETA a link to those stats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by...

I understand the rose tinted effect, but for me the differences driving in the rest of Europe compared to the UK are utterly profound, far too mcuh to be a rose tinted glasses effect and yes, I have driven in mainland Europe on business as well as pleasure and in rush hour as well as quieter times. In fact I was only chatting to my neighbour about it the other day, as he's just returned from a similar drive to mine through Europe. It's not just UK drivers' stupidity and lack of Highway Code knowledge, it combines with a cultural arrogance and aggression.

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

Moonhawk said:

monamimate said:

I agree with A&B roads and m'way differences in driving, in general terms.
Indeed, driver training in Austria, France, Belgium (and probably others) includes motorway driving. Very sensible and it shows on the road

I do find it a little odd that we don't have that in the UK.

But I also find it odd that despite the apparently better driver training - all of those countries have a higher fatality rate on their roads compared to the UK.

As others have pointed out - there is more than a hint of "rose tint" when viewing driving on the continent.

Having learned to drive in the UK and then seen how people are taught in Belgium, I would conclude that UK training gives a lot more attention to defensive and safe driving, rather than just learning road signs and rules off by heart as in Belgium.

The UK system is let down a little by not including m'way driving during training, but otherwise seems well-designed to develop safer drivers (or at least it was back in the 70s when I took my test...)

I don't think there's much wrong with the test other than the obvious omissions of night driving, motorway driving and an obligation to try different types of roads, all limited by obvious practical problems.

I think the test and teaching in the UK are both good, the problem seems to be that people just abandon and/or forget things once they've passed. This morning on my 45 minute commute into work I didn't see one driver using "mirror signal manouvre", most drivers at T junctions didn't position their cars correctly for turning left and right, and I saw quite a number of drivers (at least 10), failing to indicate at all, including the guy I followed for the last mile into work - he changed motorway lanes, left the motorway, negotiated two roundabouts and one junction without using an indicator once - that's common, or almost normal around here.

[RobM77]

waremark said:

ZedLeppelin said:

waremark said:

What problems do people think would be mitigated if motorway driving tuition was mandated?

Pass Plus was found not to reduce claims rates. It is not generally new drivers who tailgate and swoop between lanes on motorways. Motorways are easier and safer to drive on than NSL duals, which are included in potential test routes in my area.

Would such an introduction not raise the general standard of Mway driving? If more drivers drive in a certain way, would doing so encourage others to follow suit?

Everyone has to pass a theory test. I don't think any new drivers are in doubt that you are supposed to leave a safe following distance, drive in the left most available lane except when overtaking, signal before rather than at the same time as changing lane, move into the nearside in good time when preparing to take an exit slip, and not text on your mobile phone while driving. It is more experienced drivers who decide not to do these things.

I wish we had more good driving practice ads on TV to reach experienced drivers, and more marked police cars on motorways to remind them to behave. I don't see a need to take learners on motorways.

As I say above, motorway driving, night driving and country lane driving (or town driving for us country folk!) aren't obligated on the test, but there would be fairly major practical obstacles to overcome to include them and even if they were included, I suspect nobody would heed any of the advice imparted anyway, because as I say above, most people just forget everything after a couple of years anyway. What we badly need is regular re-testing, even if it's just a quick theory test, and in advance of that, we need a return of road safety adverts to our screens.

Yesterday on my drive to work it was absolutely lashing it down with rain and visibility was pretty terrible. I reckon about a fifth of cars that I saw didn't have any lights on and were therefore almost invisible when more than about 50m away. As usual, about a quarter of people didn't indicate at all when indication was necessary, and all of the remaining three quarters of drivers indicated after they'd started their manoeuvre, not beforehand to warn people (are people really that stupid? What's the point of indicating when you're halfway across a lane?). With such poor driving standards, it'd come as no surprise if I say that on that commute yesterday morning I spent two hours sat on a dual carriageway after a very nasty accident closed the road ahead of me (I know I shouldn't speculate as to the reason for the accident, but as we all know, poor driving standards do tend to lead to more accidents, so my point remains). Road safety is a serious subject, and I find it bewildering that the government seemingly ignore it when so much could be done to improve driving standards - lowering people's speed (all they seem to want to do) is just an easy way out - preventing accidents in the first place would be very welcome!

[RobM77]

Red 5 said:

When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.

I've never found that, not even in Belgium! UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.

[RobM77]

Red 5 said:

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.

I've never found that, not even in Belgium! UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.

In the UK, in a busy / jam on the motorway, there's always one
That person being aggressive and creating their own little traffic battle!
Mostly you can see what they're doing.

In Belgium though, there's a strange drone like tailgating and bunching of vehicles. One or more of the drivers can wake up at any moment and perform an unsignalled lane change akin to the elk test in severity!
There just seems to be greater uniformity in the galactic incompetence, so you can be dive bombed from seemingly impossible positions at any time.

I must admit that I've not found that about Belgium, but we can probably agree that Germany for example is leagues ahead of the UK in those terms.

With regard to what you say about the UK, yes, I totally agree. I commute on the A34 and you can guarantee that every time there's a queue of people overtaking a lorry that someone's going to dive up the inside at a 30mph closing speed and try and cut in. I really mean that you can guarantee it; it happens virtually every time! Approximately once a month there's a serious accident that causes miles of tailbacks. Last month the road was closed with me sat on it stationary from 8am till nearly 11am. Perhaps I've been lucky, but after working (Germany) and holidaying (Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland) in mainland Europe over the years I think I've only been stuck in one or two hold ups like that. On our recent 2,000 mile road trip through all the aforementioned countries we had no hold ups at all, but on returning to the UK we got stuck in two major queues due to accidents. Our neighbours coincidentally took a similar holiday and had a similar experience - no accidents causing hold ups until they got back here in the UK.

[RobM77]

This month's Evo have an editorial piece by Richard Porter on an element of this subject: overtaking. He describes how in Portugal (where he's just spent his holidays), overtaking is apparently seen as a normal part of driving, but in the UK it is often met with aggression and anger. Richard's piece struck a chord with me, as coincidentally last night I was coming home late when I chanced upon a van driving at 30mph in a 60mph limit. I did the usual drill and overtook him cleanly and without fuss, at which point he suddenly found a burst of speed (and his main beam) and tailgated me for the following mile or two. He then proceeded to follow me, even though I double backed on myself (to find out whether he was following me or not) flashing his lights and giving me long bursts of main beam. Eventually he got bored, turned off, and I continued upon my way. I must have performed countless overtaking manoeuvres abroad and I've never once been flashed or hooted, let alone followed by some pyscho presumably intent on kicking my head in for daring to overtake him.

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

RobM77 said:

Red 5 said:

When it gets really busy, you soon realise that drivers in the UK are on the whole, more predictable, orderly and safe.

I've never found that, not even in Belgium! UK drivers are mostly completely incompetent and often extremely aggressive as well.

In the UK, in a busy / jam on the motorway, there's always one
That person being aggressive and creating their own little traffic battle!
Mostly you can see what they're doing.

In Belgium though, there's a strange drone like tailgating and bunching of vehicles. One or more of the drivers can wake up at any moment and perform an unsignalled lane change akin to the elk test in severity!
There just seems to be greater uniformity in the galactic incompetence, so you can be dive bombed from seemingly impossible positions at any time.

I must admit that I've not found that about Belgium, but we can probably agree that Germany for example is leagues ahead of the UK in those terms.

With regard to what you say about the UK, yes, I totally agree. I commute on the A34 and you can guarantee that every time there's a queue of people overtaking a lorry that someone's going to dive up the inside at a 30mph closing speed and try and cut in. I really mean that you can guarantee it; it happens virtually every time! Approximately once a month there's a serious accident that causes miles of tailbacks. Last month the road was closed with me sat on it stationary from 8am till nearly 11am. Perhaps I've been lucky, but after working (Germany) and holidaying (Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland) in mainland Europe over the years I think I've only been stuck in one or two hold ups like that. On our recent 2,000 mile road trip through all the aforementioned countries we had no hold ups at all, but on returning to the UK we got stuck in two major queues due to accidents. Our neighbours coincidentally took a similar holiday and had a similar experience - no accidents causing hold ups until they got back here in the UK.

Sorry, but you're basing your whole point of view of purely subjective anecdotal "evidence" - just because you've had the luck not to have been caught in a hold-up doesn't mean they don't happen!

Coming back from Paris last week: one hour to do 12km due to accident on m'way. This week in Antwerp: one and a half hours to do 8 km, due to an accident... (that's equivalent to 66.6% of my motorway journeys in the one week). Last time in Germany, averaged 30km/h on the m'way for 2 hours due to congestion following 2 separate accidents...

You are suffering a severe case of rose-tinted spectacles/ grass always greener...

With respect that's your interpretation of what I've written that results in your conclusion. I actually didn't say that. Try reading exactly what I've written, rather than inferring all sorts of other things between the lines

I'm not trying to make definitive statements, and my anecdotal stories do not replace evidence (that applies just as much to your experiences as it does mine!). This is a discussion forum, and I've simply contributed to the discussion by saying that in my experience of driving in the UK and Europe the traffic flows much better in Europe due to, in my anecdotal and subjective experiences, drivers on mainland European roads on average being vastly better at driving than the average driver on UK roads. That's my opening remark, and it's now your opportunity to reply to that with your own remarks - we're here to discuss things aren't we?

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 12th October 13:40

[RobM77]

How I feel about driving in mainland Europe is open to bias and looking through rose tinted glasses. I don't think it is me looking through rose tinted glasses, because my friends and work colleagues all feel the same way and even our next door neighbours said the same when they returned from a big trip to the alps and back. Nevertheless, it is a subjective opinion, so indeed it could be the rose tinted glasses at work, yes.

However, the number of times I've been on hold ups due to accidents (or possibly even see people do really stupid things) is an absolute fact, surely? If you want to disagree with it, the way to do that is to say that I've just been very lucky, which perhaps I have been? I've no way of knowing that. My point above is that I'm not trying to say that my recent 2,000 mile road trip is indicative of the whole of Europe (it's too small a sample size, obviously), I'm simply asking if anyone else has found this too because I'm interested.

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

On holiday, one will often not be involved in rush hour traffic, you are not in a hurry to get anywhere etc, so generally in a very relaxed and positive frame of mind. That already puts a little tint on the viewpoint.

As I mentioned before, I often drive in rush hour traffic abroad, and that includes both work and holidays. On the aforementioned road trip we crossed Stuttgart in rush hour (as well as a large French city, whose name escapes me). As I said before, it was busy, yes, but there was an awful lot less aggression and argy-bargy. The French city had a road closure with no diversion (a common feature in Europe it seems!), so we must have spent two hours trying to get out of the place, but again, not really any aggression at all, just a lot of cars. That's my most recent experience, but in the past I've worked around Europe as well, which has involved regular rush hour driving.

At home I'm rarely in a hurry. I have a low stress job which is largely solo with very few meetings and flexible working hours (I can turn up any time between 8 and 10, then I work 7½ hours and go home between 4ish and 6ish).

[RobM77]

monamimate said:

RobM77 said:

monamimate said:

On holiday, one will often not be involved in rush hour traffic, you are not in a hurry to get anywhere etc, so generally in a very relaxed and positive frame of mind. That already puts a little tint on the viewpoint.

As I mentioned before, I often drive in rush hour traffic abroad, and that includes both work and holidays. On the aforementioned road trip we crossed Stuttgart in rush hour (as well as a large French city, whose name escapes me). As I said before, it was busy, yes, but there was an awful lot less aggression and argy-bargy. The French city had a road closure with no diversion (a common feature in Europe it seems!), so we must have spent two hours trying to get out of the place, but again, not really any aggression at all, just a lot of cars. That's my most recent experience, but in the past I've worked around Europe as well, which has involved regular rush hour driving.

At home I'm rarely in a hurry. I have a low stress job which is largely solo with very few meetings and flexible working hours (I can turn up any time between 8 and 10, then I work 7½ hours and go home between 4ish and 6ish).

Now you're just making me jealous!! Sounds like a nice job.

I guess we will have to settle on having different experiences and perceptions - keep safe and enjoy the drive, wherever it might be!

It's not massively well paid and it's very boring, but for me life's about finding a balance between work time and free time and I believe I've got that just right at the moment.

Oh yes, it's funny how experiences of similar things can vary.

[RobM77]

I think there's probably two things of note when appraising a country's driving:

1) How good they are at driving on average.

2) How good they are at driving on average, relative to the density of cars on the road.

For example, all's well and good for number 1 on a tiny Greek island, but put those people on the rush hour M25 and it'd be a very different matter.

I think it's number 2 where Brits fall down. Belgium, as mentioned above, is a good example. It's a very different experience in the crowded north and centre compared to the Ardennes for example.

The other thing is how you appraise good and bad. Everyone finds that different things wind them up. For example, virtually no Brits indicate correctly - I reckon I see one or two cars a week following mirror signal manoeuvre, if that, and about a third who don't signal at all. People also can't seem to position their car at a junctions properly either. Those things winds me up as they cause congestion and aggravation. In Germany, virtually everyone signals properly and positions their cars correctly at junctions, changes lanes without affecting others etc. However, if speed annoys you then you'll have a very different impression of driving in the UK vs Germany and France. I hardly ever see cars being driven quickly on our roads.