The darkest of the dark arts - overtaking
Discussion
If there is one skill that is misunderstood, badly practised and which frightens and intimidates drivers more than anything else, it's overtaking.
This doesn't have to be the case - there's no big mystery to overtaking, and when it's carried out correctly, it's no more dangerous than any other manoeuvre that we carry out whilst driving. For some reason, however, the general motoring public (bless 'em) seem to view overtaking as a potentially disastrous move only carried out by idiotic johnny-boy-racers. You only have to see the reactions I sometimes get from other drivers when I've carried out perfectly safe overtakes, to realise how many people have an unnecessary aversion to overtaking. If I had a pound for every time someone had suggested a method for putting vinegar on my chips after an overtake, I wouldn't be driving around in an 8 year-old car. And don't they know the bottle works the other way up?
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
I'm of the opinion that this particular phobia stems from two sources - the unnecessarily over-pressed "speed kills" message, and the fact that no-one is ever taught how to overtake properly (unless they take further driver training, and unfortunately, that's only a very small percentage of drivers at the moment).
Now, I can't do much about the first point, other than to say that excessive speed is only a small factor in accident causes, particularly when compared with driver error, but I'm afraid I'm powerless to change the government's stance on speeding, so I can't help there.
What I can do, however, is give you a few pointers on how to overtake safely and efficiently, with maximum control and minimum fuss. So here goes...
The Following Position
"Oh no Reg - not that old chestnut again."
Bear with me - I know the following position is a much discussed topic, but it's a vital element in safe overtaking, and it's where the majority of overtakes start from. There are two main reasons for this - it's far enough back to give you a good view of the road ahead, and it's far enough forward to allow you to quickly move into the overtake if it's on.
If you sit two seconds behind the car in front (slightly more if it's a larger vehicle), then it won't be filling too much of your field of vision - you'll still have a reasonably good view of the road in front of that car. If you move your car sideways at the appropriate times, you can vastly improve your view of the road ahead, but the key is knowing when and where to move your car.
How many times have you seen drivers looking for an overtake by moving their head to the right to improve their view? In most cars, you can only really move your head by a maximum of about a foot, so the improvement in view by moving a foot to the right is fairly minuscule. It's much better practise to move the whole car, as the distance you can potentially move the car sideways is much greater and so, subsequently, is the improvement in your view.
So, where should you be moving to? That depends entirely on what the road is doing.
Lets start with a straight piece of road, as that's the easiest. Move your car towards the centre line whilst in your following position, and look into the distance. If it's safe to do so, you can then move your car across the centre-lines, over towards the offside of the road. This offside move is very alien to some people, but believe me, it's by far the best way to see if the road ahead is clear. The amount of sideways movement can vary from having your offside wheels on the white line, to straddling the white line, to moving completely over to the offside of the road, dependent on the available view. Don't get sucked into the old "right and wrong side of the road" stuff - unless white lines dictate otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable to use the full width of the road if it's safe to do so.
The most common mistake people make when moving offside for a look is this...
They look with their right foot.
To expand on that, people confuse the move offside with the start of an overtake, and, even if they know that they're just trying to improve their view, they accompany the offside move with a slight inadvertent squeeze on the accelerator. They look with their right foot. This is a problem if the overtake isn't on, because when they move back to the nearside, the inevitable result of looking with your right foot is that you close up your following position to less than 2 seconds. Do this several times, and without realising it, you can end up very intimately involved with the car in front, if you get my meaning.
So the sideways move should be just that - a sideways move for a look, and not accompanied with a forwards move.
On a left hand bend, the series of moves required to obtain the optimum view start with a move to the nearside to obtain a view of the bend down the left-hand side of the car in front. Once you've got that nearside view, it can be improved as you get closer to the corner, by moving the car offside. There's no prescriptive distance that you should move offside - just move enough to improve that view down the left-hand side of the car, without going so far that you end up blocking it.
I've just read that back, and it sounds complicated, so I'll try to simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move nearside and look nearside. As you get into the corner, move offside, but keep looking nearside.
There - that's better!
As you round the bend, you'll get a brief view of the road ahead as it straightens up, and if it appears clear, this view can then be confirmed with a move further offside, the outcome of which will finalise your decision as to whether to go or not.
For right-hand bends, the process is to initially move offside on the approach to the bend, and then, on entering the bend, to move as far nearside as it's safe to go. This move nearside should be accompanied with a slight closing of the following position to about 1 1/2 seconds (the only time I advocate getting closer than 2 seconds), and you should then obtain a good view down the offside of the car in front. As you round the bend, from this position, you'll obtain a good, early view of the road as the bend straightens, and if it's safe, you should be able to get out into the overtake nice and early - often whilst still negotiating the bend.
Again, that reads quite complicated, so I'll simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move offside and look offside, and then on entering the corner, move nearside, close up, and look offside.
Don't forget, though, that if the overtake isn't on from the right-hander, you should drop back to a 2-second following position.
So, that's how to move your car around from the following position to obtain a good view, but what else is there to consider?
Other considerations
This list could go on and on, and I'm in no doubt that I'll miss some things, but here goes...
Are there any junctions or entrances to the right? If there are, the car you're intending to overtake could possibly turn right, or something could emerge from the junction and come towards you. If you can get your overtake in well before you get to the junction, then fine, but if not, you should wait until you can see that nothing is going to emerge, and you're happy that the car in front isn't going to turn right.
Is there a faster moving vehicle behind that could overtake you? Organ-donors are notorious for this, as nothing's faster than their Tamajaki 900RSR is it? Your sideways movement looking for a view should be a good visual clue that you're looking for an overtake, but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them. A mirror-check is a vital part of the overall planning process for an overtake. Don't go if you're about to be overtaken yourself. And with that in mind...
Is the vehicle you're looking to overtake also looking to overtake? Do the movements of the vehicle suggest they're also looking for the opportunity to go? an un-trained driver will follow the next vehicle quite closely, and their decision to overtake will generally be made much later than a more advanced driver. They usually accompany this with an inability to check their mirrors before overtaking, which means that whilst you may have decided that it's safe to go, and started overtaking, their later decision making could mean that they move out and accelerate just as you're passing them, which isn't good.
Trust me - it's really not good.
What is the performance potential of your car? This may be an obvious one, but it's always something to consider. My plans for overtaking in my M3 differ considerably from my plans for overtaking in the MX-5. It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
Have I got somewhere to land? Landing space is essential, as you shouldn't be forcing other cars to slow down or alter their position just to allow you to overtake. If the car in front is a tailgater, but they're not actually overtaking, then your plan should always be to overtake both vehicles rather than to take one, and force in between them. If you're overtaking in a line of vehicles, it's much nicer to use acceleration sense to slot into your chosen gap than to over-accelerate and then come in under braking.
Is there a vehicle that you can't see which is currently out of view but travelling towards you? I use organ-donors as an example for this one too, as they're the fastestthingontheroad (TM). Imagine that there's a motorcyclist travelling at full chat towards you, but currently out of view. Can you complete your overtake before coming into conflict with them? If you can, then all well and good, but if you can't, then wait. This is another example of when a good imagination is important to an advanced driver.
Have you selected the correct gear? Gear selection is critical when overtaking. You need a gear which will give you the correct degree of acceleration when you start to go, but not one which is so low that you'll need an up-change halfway through the overtake. I prefer to have both my hands on the wheel whilst overtaking, thank you very much. That correct gear selection should also be considered when you're in the following position. The entry to corners should be accompanied by a change to a flexible gear in anticipation of an overtaking opportunity. If it turns out the overtake isn't on, then you should change back up again and wait for the next one.
Do I have an alternative plan? If things go badly wrong, what are you going to do? Can you brake and get back in behind the vehicle? Is there somewhere else you can go to avoid a collision? Did you put clean underpants on this morning?
As I said, this isn't an exhaustive list - take each overtake as it comes and consider every possible scenario as part of your planned approach.
Completing the overtake
In my mind, once you've weighed everything up and decided to go, that's it - the overtake is done and dusted, and mentally you should be moving on to the next hazard. Physically, you'll be accelerating and completing the overtake, but mentally you should be waaay ahead of that and well into the planning stage for your next manoeuvre, whether it be another overtake, a corner, a roundabout or any one of the other million things we have to deal with as drivers.
The overtake should be completed with a minimum of fuss, and should be started with a move offside, which should not be accompanied by any acceleration. This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend). Once you're out, then you should accelerate to pass the vehicle.
You should aim to come back nearside leaving at least a 2 second gap between the overtaken vehicle and yourself. I find that the easiest way to get this right is to wait until you have a full view of the overtaken vehicle in your centre mirror before moving back to the nearside.
Of course, we know that information changes all the time, and once you're out on the overtake, you might decide that there is another one on. Mentally assess each overtake individually, taking account of all the points above, and if it's on, stay out and continue to overtake. My record was a memorable 18-vehicle overtake on a single-carriageway A road, carried out in perfect safety by one of my students.
Remain calm and level-headed when planning overtakes and never base any of your decisions on anger or aggression, or on the fact that you're late - this will affect your ability to make a rational decision and could introduce the one thing that you should always try to keep out of driving - an element of risk.
This has been by far the longest and most difficult post I've written so far. I apologise if I've gone on a bit, but as you can see, it's a very wide-ranging subject and I've tried not to miss anything out.
Although I'm sure I have done.
This doesn't have to be the case - there's no big mystery to overtaking, and when it's carried out correctly, it's no more dangerous than any other manoeuvre that we carry out whilst driving. For some reason, however, the general motoring public (bless 'em) seem to view overtaking as a potentially disastrous move only carried out by idiotic johnny-boy-racers. You only have to see the reactions I sometimes get from other drivers when I've carried out perfectly safe overtakes, to realise how many people have an unnecessary aversion to overtaking. If I had a pound for every time someone had suggested a method for putting vinegar on my chips after an overtake, I wouldn't be driving around in an 8 year-old car. And don't they know the bottle works the other way up?
This "overtakaphobia" seems to be a particularly English problem too. I've driven in France, Italy, and extensively in Scotland where I've found the locals far more inclined to assist you in overtaking by moving nearside or giving a helpful indicator when it's safe to go.
I'm of the opinion that this particular phobia stems from two sources - the unnecessarily over-pressed "speed kills" message, and the fact that no-one is ever taught how to overtake properly (unless they take further driver training, and unfortunately, that's only a very small percentage of drivers at the moment).
Now, I can't do much about the first point, other than to say that excessive speed is only a small factor in accident causes, particularly when compared with driver error, but I'm afraid I'm powerless to change the government's stance on speeding, so I can't help there.
What I can do, however, is give you a few pointers on how to overtake safely and efficiently, with maximum control and minimum fuss. So here goes...
The Following Position
"Oh no Reg - not that old chestnut again."
Bear with me - I know the following position is a much discussed topic, but it's a vital element in safe overtaking, and it's where the majority of overtakes start from. There are two main reasons for this - it's far enough back to give you a good view of the road ahead, and it's far enough forward to allow you to quickly move into the overtake if it's on.
If you sit two seconds behind the car in front (slightly more if it's a larger vehicle), then it won't be filling too much of your field of vision - you'll still have a reasonably good view of the road in front of that car. If you move your car sideways at the appropriate times, you can vastly improve your view of the road ahead, but the key is knowing when and where to move your car.
How many times have you seen drivers looking for an overtake by moving their head to the right to improve their view? In most cars, you can only really move your head by a maximum of about a foot, so the improvement in view by moving a foot to the right is fairly minuscule. It's much better practise to move the whole car, as the distance you can potentially move the car sideways is much greater and so, subsequently, is the improvement in your view.
So, where should you be moving to? That depends entirely on what the road is doing.
Lets start with a straight piece of road, as that's the easiest. Move your car towards the centre line whilst in your following position, and look into the distance. If it's safe to do so, you can then move your car across the centre-lines, over towards the offside of the road. This offside move is very alien to some people, but believe me, it's by far the best way to see if the road ahead is clear. The amount of sideways movement can vary from having your offside wheels on the white line, to straddling the white line, to moving completely over to the offside of the road, dependent on the available view. Don't get sucked into the old "right and wrong side of the road" stuff - unless white lines dictate otherwise, it's perfectly acceptable to use the full width of the road if it's safe to do so.
The most common mistake people make when moving offside for a look is this...
They look with their right foot.
To expand on that, people confuse the move offside with the start of an overtake, and, even if they know that they're just trying to improve their view, they accompany the offside move with a slight inadvertent squeeze on the accelerator. They look with their right foot. This is a problem if the overtake isn't on, because when they move back to the nearside, the inevitable result of looking with your right foot is that you close up your following position to less than 2 seconds. Do this several times, and without realising it, you can end up very intimately involved with the car in front, if you get my meaning.
So the sideways move should be just that - a sideways move for a look, and not accompanied with a forwards move.
On a left hand bend, the series of moves required to obtain the optimum view start with a move to the nearside to obtain a view of the bend down the left-hand side of the car in front. Once you've got that nearside view, it can be improved as you get closer to the corner, by moving the car offside. There's no prescriptive distance that you should move offside - just move enough to improve that view down the left-hand side of the car, without going so far that you end up blocking it.
I've just read that back, and it sounds complicated, so I'll try to simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move nearside and look nearside. As you get into the corner, move offside, but keep looking nearside.
There - that's better!
As you round the bend, you'll get a brief view of the road ahead as it straightens up, and if it appears clear, this view can then be confirmed with a move further offside, the outcome of which will finalise your decision as to whether to go or not.
For right-hand bends, the process is to initially move offside on the approach to the bend, and then, on entering the bend, to move as far nearside as it's safe to go. This move nearside should be accompanied with a slight closing of the following position to about 1 1/2 seconds (the only time I advocate getting closer than 2 seconds), and you should then obtain a good view down the offside of the car in front. As you round the bend, from this position, you'll obtain a good, early view of the road as the bend straightens, and if it's safe, you should be able to get out into the overtake nice and early - often whilst still negotiating the bend.
Again, that reads quite complicated, so I'll simplify it...
Approaching the corner, move offside and look offside, and then on entering the corner, move nearside, close up, and look offside.
Don't forget, though, that if the overtake isn't on from the right-hander, you should drop back to a 2-second following position.
So, that's how to move your car around from the following position to obtain a good view, but what else is there to consider?
Other considerations
This list could go on and on, and I'm in no doubt that I'll miss some things, but here goes...
Are there any junctions or entrances to the right? If there are, the car you're intending to overtake could possibly turn right, or something could emerge from the junction and come towards you. If you can get your overtake in well before you get to the junction, then fine, but if not, you should wait until you can see that nothing is going to emerge, and you're happy that the car in front isn't going to turn right.
Is there a faster moving vehicle behind that could overtake you? Organ-donors are notorious for this, as nothing's faster than their Tamajaki 900RSR is it? Your sideways movement looking for a view should be a good visual clue that you're looking for an overtake, but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them. A mirror-check is a vital part of the overall planning process for an overtake. Don't go if you're about to be overtaken yourself. And with that in mind...
Is the vehicle you're looking to overtake also looking to overtake? Do the movements of the vehicle suggest they're also looking for the opportunity to go? an un-trained driver will follow the next vehicle quite closely, and their decision to overtake will generally be made much later than a more advanced driver. They usually accompany this with an inability to check their mirrors before overtaking, which means that whilst you may have decided that it's safe to go, and started overtaking, their later decision making could mean that they move out and accelerate just as you're passing them, which isn't good.
Trust me - it's really not good.
What is the performance potential of your car? This may be an obvious one, but it's always something to consider. My plans for overtaking in my M3 differ considerably from my plans for overtaking in the MX-5. It's actually a good exercise to learn how to overtake in a slow car, as the planning required for overtaking is much more intense than if you drive a fast car.
Have I got somewhere to land? Landing space is essential, as you shouldn't be forcing other cars to slow down or alter their position just to allow you to overtake. If the car in front is a tailgater, but they're not actually overtaking, then your plan should always be to overtake both vehicles rather than to take one, and force in between them. If you're overtaking in a line of vehicles, it's much nicer to use acceleration sense to slot into your chosen gap than to over-accelerate and then come in under braking.
Is there a vehicle that you can't see which is currently out of view but travelling towards you? I use organ-donors as an example for this one too, as they're the fastestthingontheroad (TM). Imagine that there's a motorcyclist travelling at full chat towards you, but currently out of view. Can you complete your overtake before coming into conflict with them? If you can, then all well and good, but if you can't, then wait. This is another example of when a good imagination is important to an advanced driver.
Have you selected the correct gear? Gear selection is critical when overtaking. You need a gear which will give you the correct degree of acceleration when you start to go, but not one which is so low that you'll need an up-change halfway through the overtake. I prefer to have both my hands on the wheel whilst overtaking, thank you very much. That correct gear selection should also be considered when you're in the following position. The entry to corners should be accompanied by a change to a flexible gear in anticipation of an overtaking opportunity. If it turns out the overtake isn't on, then you should change back up again and wait for the next one.
Do I have an alternative plan? If things go badly wrong, what are you going to do? Can you brake and get back in behind the vehicle? Is there somewhere else you can go to avoid a collision? Did you put clean underpants on this morning?
As I said, this isn't an exhaustive list - take each overtake as it comes and consider every possible scenario as part of your planned approach.
Completing the overtake
In my mind, once you've weighed everything up and decided to go, that's it - the overtake is done and dusted, and mentally you should be moving on to the next hazard. Physically, you'll be accelerating and completing the overtake, but mentally you should be waaay ahead of that and well into the planning stage for your next manoeuvre, whether it be another overtake, a corner, a roundabout or any one of the other million things we have to deal with as drivers.
The overtake should be completed with a minimum of fuss, and should be started with a move offside, which should not be accompanied by any acceleration. This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend). Once you're out, then you should accelerate to pass the vehicle.
You should aim to come back nearside leaving at least a 2 second gap between the overtaken vehicle and yourself. I find that the easiest way to get this right is to wait until you have a full view of the overtaken vehicle in your centre mirror before moving back to the nearside.
Of course, we know that information changes all the time, and once you're out on the overtake, you might decide that there is another one on. Mentally assess each overtake individually, taking account of all the points above, and if it's on, stay out and continue to overtake. My record was a memorable 18-vehicle overtake on a single-carriageway A road, carried out in perfect safety by one of my students.
Remain calm and level-headed when planning overtakes and never base any of your decisions on anger or aggression, or on the fact that you're late - this will affect your ability to make a rational decision and could introduce the one thing that you should always try to keep out of driving - an element of risk.
This has been by far the longest and most difficult post I've written so far. I apologise if I've gone on a bit, but as you can see, it's a very wide-ranging subject and I've tried not to miss anything out.
Although I'm sure I have done.
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Friday 9th March 19:03
bertbert said:
Reg, nice description...I'll have to go and think about the various moves to get visibility though. The thing that always strikes me as a hard thing to describe/teach/learn is how to judge the distance needed to complete the overtake safely.
Any thoughts?
Bert
PS I'll actually have to reject the otherwise good description on the basis that it doesn't cover any of the possibilities regarding correct indication in overtaking!
Any thoughts?
Bert
PS I'll actually have to reject the otherwise good description on the basis that it doesn't cover any of the possibilities regarding correct indication in overtaking!
I've left the signalling aspect out of my post - I thought it'd create less friction if I just left that up to the individual! 
As for your first question, which distance do you mean?
bertbert said:
the fundamental one of how far ahead the road needs to be clear before you can commit to the overtake.
Bert
Bert
It's mainly dependent on how fast your car is. I'm not going to commit myself to any set distances - as with a lot of aspects of driving, that distance can be an ever-changing thing, dependent on how large a vehicle you're overtaking, how good the road surface is, what the weather conditions are, etc, etc.
But the biggest deciding factor is definitely the performance of your car.
I'll leave the judgement of the distance up to you.
The other method you're describing could possibly be what I call a "rolling overtake".
This is performed in a situation where you have "plus speed" on the vehicle you're planning to overtake, and the overtake is carried out in one move, without first settling into a following position.
These don't come up very often, and you have to be very sure of your observations and your plan before committing yourself to one, but when performed correctly, a rolling overtake can be a very satisfying move.
Vanhosen, you have a similar attitude towards overtaking planning to me - I much prefer to have an on-coming vehicle in sight when I'm looking for an overtake, as you can assess your closing speed against something real, rather than trying to assess against something which may or may not come into view at an unspecified speed.
This method of planning is somewhat arse-about-face to less experienced drivers, who prefer, on the whole, to have no oncoming vehicles in view before overtaking.
This is performed in a situation where you have "plus speed" on the vehicle you're planning to overtake, and the overtake is carried out in one move, without first settling into a following position.
These don't come up very often, and you have to be very sure of your observations and your plan before committing yourself to one, but when performed correctly, a rolling overtake can be a very satisfying move.
Vanhosen, you have a similar attitude towards overtaking planning to me - I much prefer to have an on-coming vehicle in sight when I'm looking for an overtake, as you can assess your closing speed against something real, rather than trying to assess against something which may or may not come into view at an unspecified speed.
This method of planning is somewhat arse-about-face to less experienced drivers, who prefer, on the whole, to have no oncoming vehicles in view before overtaking.
Vaux said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
..... This is very important, as you shouldn't be getting any closer to the vehicle in front than 2 seconds (or 1 1/2 on a right-hand bend).
This is interesting, as it's not classic Roadcraft is it?
The book talks about the following position, then moving up to a closer overtaking or "contact" position.
Being say, one second closer could make the difference between the overtake being on or not on? I suppose it depends on the performance of your vehicle and how quick you can make up the gap. I can see the following position is "safer" and gives a better view.
Edited by Vaux on Saturday 10th March 10:47
I'm glad you've noticed that as it's an interesting point.
*Puts controversial head on*
I don't agree with the "overtaking position" or the "contact position" or whatever you want to call it. Neither does my force driving school - pick up any of the copies of roadcraft in the school library, flick to the page which describes the overtaking position and you'll find a big red line through it, and a note saying "we don't do this".
But why not, if it's a roadcraft approved technique?
It's because the small benefit of closing up to the vehicle in front is outweighed by the increased risk of a rear-end shunt.
Now, I'm an independent thinker, and I like to make my own mind up about things - many of my own driving techniques differ from those taught at the school and if I thought the overtaking position was correct, then I'd use it. But I don't.
I know mine isn't the only Police driving school to have ditched the overtaking position, but I also know that more schools teach it than don't.
A colleague of mine transferred to my force from the Met, where he'd been a traffic officer with an advanced permit. Transferees have to undergo a driving test to assess their competency, and I was assigned to test him at advanced level. He was a nice driver, smooth, systematic and exactly what you'd expect from an experienced driver, but he used the overtaking position and it made me feel extremely uncomfortable. It felt far too close, even for the brief periods that he was using it for (he'd either commit to the overtake, or drop back to 2 seconds if it wasn't on), and I'm sure I wasn't the only one who felt like that, judging from the reactions of some of the people we overtook. I pulled him over halfway through the test and had a chat with him about it, and he assured me that was how the Met taught the overtaking position. I pointed out my forces policy and asked him to leave that aspect out of his driving. The second half of the drive was much nicer, we managed just as many overtakes in a far more relaxed style, and he told me that he felt far more comfortable at the wheel.
he's now a close friend of mine and also my new gaffer and I've asked him about it since. He insists that that was how he was taught, but says that our way is better, and that he was never very comfortable with the overtaking position.
I've been out and tried it for myself, as I'm always open to trying different things, and I don't feel you should comment on something unless you've tried it yourself. Like my transferee colleague, I found it a more stressful method of overtaking, I didn't like the momentary loss of view caused by closing up, I felt uncomfortable being that close to the car in front, and I felt as though it was excessively aggressive along with some of the people I overtook.
So, with all those points considered, I don't recommend the "overtaking" or "contact" position.
Oh, and as for this…
deevlash said:
r_u_local said:
but motorcyclists aren't usually too bothered about the complexities of overtaking - breath in and wind it on is the normal motorcyclist's overtaking technique, so us drivers have to compensate for them
In general a useful post but why denegrate bikers? Obviously there are several who overtake and ride like idiots but on the whole I would suggest the vast majority are far more aware of their surroundings and spacings than the majority of car drivers. I did notice that throughout youre post you failed to make any mention of the necessity of checking your blind spot for our 2 wheeled friends, after all they dont have the benefit of 2 tonnes of metal to protect them from badly driven cars. I personally dont ride a bike but hope to one day and the IAMS bike division is generally recognised as being a far more informed group of road users than their car equivalents.
A combination of an ironic sense of humour and a mild dislike of the more reckless motorcyclists seems to have gone over your head.
Don’t take things so seriously.
I did mention, in detail, why you need to know exactly what's happening behind prior to overtaking. If I mentioned every mirror check, shoulder check, blind-spot check and testicle adjustment required before an overtake, I'd still be typing the original post now.
vonhosen said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
.....comments on contact position
This is one where we definitely differ.
It is, and I expect it's one that quite a few people will disagree with me over.
vonhosen said:
Would I use the contact position in my car ?
No, because I'm not looking to make that degree of progress, the importance of progress is not high.
No, because I'm not looking to make that degree of progress, the importance of progress is not high.
If I wouldn't do it in my own car, then I wouldn't do it in a works car. Personally, I've got one standard of driving. I can switch between different styles if needed - a pursuit requires a far different style of driving than a VIP escort run, but I only have one standard of driving, which I try to apply whatever the circumstances.
vonhosen said:
Does it help in achieving greater progress by getting more overtakes when responding in an emergency without the assistance of blue lights & two tones ?
Yes it definitetly does.
Does it present an unacceptable risk in doing so, thereby compromising safety ?
No, I don't believe it does where used appropriately.
If used appropriately does it result in adverse losses of vision ?
No it doesn't, because you will be able to see both sides of the road ahead of the other vehicle.
Yes it definitetly does.
Does it present an unacceptable risk in doing so, thereby compromising safety ?
No, I don't believe it does where used appropriately.
If used appropriately does it result in adverse losses of vision ?
No it doesn't, because you will be able to see both sides of the road ahead of the other vehicle.
Interesting questions, but how about this one - is it more stressful for a driver who is already in a stressful situation in having to drive to an emergency incident? That's the one time when a driver should be trying to keep their stress levels to a minimum, and concentrate on their driving above everything else. The added difficulty of driving very close to moving vehicles, and the inevitable "clog and anchor" style of driving that it encourages only adds to, rather than diminishing the drivers stress levels.
When teaching response driving, I prefer my students to hold back and wait, either for a reaction from the driver in front, or for an opportunity to overtake safely, rather than getting into the overtaking position.
vonhosen said:
The risk of a rear end shunt from doing this where appropriate ?
I don't know of one collision resulting from it's appropriate use.
I don't know of one collision resulting from it's appropriate use.
A fair point - no, I've never heard of one either, but the first advantage of the following position is that it allows you to stop safely, should the vehicle in front brake sharply, without warning. Get within that 2 second gap, and if the worst comes to the worst and the driver in front does brake suddenly and unexpectedly (as, I'm sure you agree, they're prone to do when you're on a response run), then you've much less time and space in which to react, and a rear-end shunt is more likely.
Also, don't forget, I'm writing these articles with motoring enthusiasts in mind. You may advocate the overtaking position for Police drivers on response runs, but you've admitted you don't do it in your own car, so would you want the general motoring public using the technique?
I wouldn't.
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree then - I have my reasons for not using it, which I believe are valid, and you have your reasons for advocating it, which you believe are valid. I can see your point of view as, I'm sure, you can see mine.
People will just have to make their own minds up.
People will just have to make their own minds up.
vonhosen said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree then - I have my reasons for not using it, which I believe are valid, and you have your reasons for advocating it, which you believe are valid. I can see your point of view as, I'm sure, you can see mine.
People will just have to make their own minds up.
People will just have to make their own minds up.
Agreed.
I know some forces similarly don't allow any apexing at all. That is also an unnecessary restriction IMHO.
Are you thinking of Scottish Police driver training by any chance?
snotrag said:
Stuff about a tosser in a Saab.
What would you do?
What would you do?
I hope the Saab driver has learned a valuable lesson there - never follow someone else into an overtake. If it's safe for the first vehicle to go, it doesn't automatically follow that it's safe for the next one to go. Plus, how do you know the first vehicle isn't being driven by a suicidal maniac, or worse, a taxi driver?
From your description, I can't see how you could have done much different - the Saab driver put him/herself in that position, and had to sort it out themselves. You'd noticed it approaching at speed from the rear, so the actions of the Saab driver certainly formed part of your initial plan, but how could you have expected them to have made the decision to follow you? And what else could you have done to help them sort their mistake out? Not much by the sound of things.
On bit of information that's always invaluable to advanced students on the lead up to test...
Don't go looking for overtakes. If you sit in the correct position, in the right gear and look in the right place, overtakes will present themselves to you. All you have to do is accept the invitation.
Don't go looking for overtakes. If you sit in the correct position, in the right gear and look in the right place, overtakes will present themselves to you. All you have to do is accept the invitation.
GreenV8S said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
Don't go looking for overtakes.
I think that when you want to overtake the car in front you need to be alert for an approaching possible overtaking opportunity and put yourself in a position to take advantage of it (position, speed, gear etc). Do you call this looking for overtakes?
The "don't go looking for overtakes" is a line I use to calm students preparing for test. The point being that if you look too hard for overtakes, your following position will suffer, you'll lose smoothness, and your overall awareness of what's happening all around is reduced. That's because a student on test often makes the mistake of thinking an examiner is just looking for a maximum number of overtakes. What they're actually looking for is a progressive mindset combined with restraint. A student can earn as much by positioning correctly for an overtake and not taking it (for the right reasons, of course) as they can for actually getting the overtake.
This translates across to everyday driving quite nicely when you're starting to get cheesed off behind a slower vehicle. If you look too hard for the overtake, you can end up getting too close, driving roughly, losing awareness etc. However, if you just concentrate on positioning for the view correctly, looking in the right places, and changing to a flexible overtaking gear when you anticipate that an overtake might be on, then you'll stay more relaxed, your overall driving won't suffer, and the overtakes will, quite literally, present themselves to you. The actual overtake is the easy bit - it's the preperation and planning that takes up the most megabytes of a driver's RAM.
GravelBen said:
Overtaking story
This is another good reason for holding an offside position, albeit briefly, before accelerating into an overtake. An offside position allows you to make a better judgement of the overtake before you start accelerating, including judging whether or not the vehicle in front is about to overtake. It also allows the driver in front to see your intention, before you actually commit to the overtake. I think, having read your description, that if you'd moved to the offside and held that position for a second or two, the truck driver would have done exactly the same, but you would still have been far enough back for it not to have mattered. Of course, I can't be sure, as the numpties are all out there to get you and you can't always out guess them.
As for overtaking at night, the disadvantage is that the furthest point you can see is generally the distance that your headlights illuminate, but the advantage is that other vehicles headlights can give you a good visual clue as to where the road is going and where your overtaking opportunities might be. The planning phase of the overtake has to be carried out very carefully, as you don't naturally have a good view ahead, so you need to make more calculations based on what visual clues are out there. There is no doubt that it is more difficult, the opportunities to overtake are less, and you miss far more overtakes at night than you would during the day. Other than that, there's no real secret to it.
erdnase said:
I like the idea of a 1 second main-beam flash - but at what point on a "classic" overtake should that be done? I'm thinking once you pull out and see the road ahead is clear. Am I right? Should I be delaying the overtake by a second or so, to get the beam flash in, or should it be integrated smoothly with the other steps?
One other thing. When overtaking more than one car, or perhaps a car following a tractor closely that doesn't look like he's overtaking... in the back of my mind, I'm always thinking it's possible the car takes the beam flash as a "go for it mate" signal, since that's how most drivers use and interpret it. Any thoughts?
Erd
I don't like using a headlight flash for the very reason you've identified in your second paragraph. I believe there is too much scope for the signal to be misunderstood and I prefer not to use one when overtaking.One other thing. When overtaking more than one car, or perhaps a car following a tractor closely that doesn't look like he's overtaking... in the back of my mind, I'm always thinking it's possible the car takes the beam flash as a "go for it mate" signal, since that's how most drivers use and interpret it. Any thoughts?
Erd
There are, however, plenty of people who disagree with me.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I don't have much of an issue with your technique, but you should be aware of it's downsides. As you say, if you hold back and obtain a view, accelerating into the overtake from a longer following position should be fine.However, you should make sure that you move offside at the point where you're two seconds behind the overtaken car, as accelerating within that two second gap can be problematic.
The other disadvantage is that, if the information changes, you'll be coming back into a following position under braking, immediately after accelerating. This would almost certainly put you too close to the rear of the overtakee, which you'll have to sort out with further braking. Not a smooth way to progress.
If, on the other hand, you move sideways and confirm the overtake before accelerating, it's far easier to slot back into a correct following position without braking, if you decide the overtake isn't on.
Bagman said:
Reg, watched the vids on You Tube today particularly the ones about overtaking. I then set off on a journey from Hampshire to my parents' house in Wales. Along single carriageway roads I tried to remember what you'd written here and what the videos contained and I must say it worked beautifully. Wasn't getting frustrated at being sat behind slower cars as I was summing up whether a pass was on or not and I was able to spot passes a lot sooner than usual.
Have you written anything on motorway driving?
I'm glad you found it useful. I've always said that you don't actually have to look for overtakes. If you sit in the correct position, and look in the correct places with a progressive mindset, then overtakes will simply present themselves to you.Have you written anything on motorway driving?
As for a motorway driving article, I haven't yet BM, but I am planning one. I want to take some accompanying photographs though, and I haven't yet had the chance. Keep an eye on the forum and I'll post something in the next couple of weeks.
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