Rugby Union Autumn Internationals

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08/11/2014 14.30 England - - New Zealand
08/11/2014 14.30 Wales - - Australia
08/11/2014 15.00 Italy - - Samoa
08/11/2014 17.45 France - - Fiji
08/11/2014 17.30 Ireland - - South Africa
08/11/2014 17.30 Scotland - - Argentina
15/11/2014 14.30 England - - South Africa
15/11/2014 14.30 Wales - - Fiji
15/11/2014 15.00 Italy - - Argentina
15/11/2014 17.30 Scotland - - New Zealand
15/11/2014 21.00 France - - Australia
16/11/2014 14.30 Ireland - - Georgia
22/11/2014 14.30 Scotland - - Tonga
22/11/2014 15.00 Italy - - South Africa
22/11/2014 16.30 Ireland - - Australia
22/11/2014 17.30 Wales - - New Zealand
22/11/2014 19.00 England - - Samoa
22/11/2014 21.00 France - - Argentina
29/11/2014 14.30 England - - Australia
29/11/2014 14.30 Wales - - South Africa

Haven't seen another thread on this as yet.

I always feel the NH sides are at a bit of a disadvantage come the Autumn Internationals. I think the big 3/4 benefit more from playing together in the Rugby Championship than they suffer from fatigue after a long season IMO vs the home nations who've not played together for a while.

Anyhow England should be targeting 4/4 but I reckon they'll do well to win 2/4 to be brutally honest. Quite a few injuries at the moment and IMO the continuing issue of having a good pool of very good players whilst struggling for world class players. Lancaster has the tendency to have a better the devil he knows attitude so while there's some interesting new blood in the squad I doubt he'll try anything radical in the Autumn-which is a shame. Centre partnership is anyone's guess-Joseph and Eastmond? We'll continue to see the two 6.5's in the back row in Robshaw (who to be fair what I've seen of him is in good form) and Wood has also been consistent. Big Billy V looked shattered in the NZ tour and I haven't seen him play much this season I'd like to see Haskell getting a run out to take some pressure off Billy V to do all the carrying. Back row is still of concern, but while I was surprised to see Ashton not make the squad I was glad. Foden seems to be in better form than Brown but the latter has a lot of this banked credit that Lancaster goes on about.

I'd throw caution to the wind and let some of the youngsters get a go, there's nothing to loose but a lot to learn. I expect we'll beat Samoa and Australia and be competitive but go down against the Blacks and Boks. I think with an in form close to first choice 15 we could have beat the Boks but seem to have enough to bludgeon their way to victory with some flair and the #10 Pollard looking good.

ETA

England used to start out with the easiest of the internationals? Usually a Fiji, Pacific Islands combined or other team. Samoa would have offered a better start to at least get some game time together.

Edited by a311 on Thursday 30th October 21:04

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YankeePorker said:

Let's hope the Samoans don't break any of our players!

This is true. It may seem like I'm being slightly disrespectful to Samoa which I don't mean to be. Don't have the time together or enough tests against the other top tier nations as a team or the financial resources. They've tended to loose some players to the AB's too. They do have enough quality to put anyone away though on their day.

I'd have liked to have seen a pacific nations team added to the super rugby competition, instead of or at least in addition to the new Japanese franchise. But money talks I guess.

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It's looking like Barritt and Eastmond in the Centres with BB out of position at 13. I'm glad to see Eastmond getting another run out as he seemed to get most of the flack the team/backline deserved in NZ.

I think having Farrell and Barritt on takes pressure of Eastmond defensively and is a combo we didn't get to see in NZ with the perceived defensively frail Cipriani and Burns. I think Lancasters preferred midfield partnership is MT and BB which I don't mind but while having Farrell at 10 at them moment we'll never be world beaters. Recent history has shown that to beat the AB's you need to out score them. When we beat them our forwards got loads of front foot ball and we were able to make line breaks. Last year the former was true but not the latter.

It sounds like Rokoduguni may get a start at the weekend too.

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Just heard that Launchburry is out of the Autumn AI's with a neck injury.

As good as the JL/CL partnership was I think there's room and games that require a heavy weight, carrying lock such as Attwood.

I also have less of a problem with our backrow balance, however with Calum Clarke in we're still quite one dimensional in the flanks to me, assuming Robshaw baring injury is nailed on Wood/Clarke have that dog about them and put in a lot of work but puts a lot of the carrying line breaks on Billy V. Morgan at 8 who's having a good season of what I've seen at Billy V at 6 I'd like to see. It's not going to happen but I'd like to see someone like Matt Garvey who's going well for Bath and suited for game where you need a bit more ballast-such as against the Boks.

I always thought that 2015 RWC was going to be at least a year too early for this England team to be genuinely competitive. I think Lancaster has missed a few opportunities to get closer than that, for one by building his tenure so far around Farrell at 10. As it is it feels to me like he's built a team capable of getting to the semis......

ETA

Also watched the Barbarians game, best game I've seen them feature in for a long time.

Yanks were well hammered.

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ShawCrossShark said:

Anybody any thoughts on where Sam burgess might factor in when he has had some time to settle.

Not sure how much you've seen of him but the guy's phenomenal. Massive loss to RL

Still not sure where they plan on playing him at Bath though - heard a few mentions of centre

Any thoughts?

I've heard centre and the back row mentioned at Bath. Centre would be the easier introductory position to the 15 man code as proven with other converts. A bit gutting that his appearance has been delayed with injury-talking next month to feature for Bath. It was always going to tight expecting him to get nr the England side. I hope he goes out at Centre for Bath, he's a phenomenal athlete, quick with good hands and distribution skills, I've heard he can tackle a bit too

Bath have a number of injuries in the backrow so there's the chance they may take a look at him there. I can see him at 8, battering ram/ball carrier but given the above could provide a link with the backs. I hope for his sake he goes on to be a success in Union, he's left a lot behind to give it a crack.

Today, I don't see anything but an All Black win. They're pretty much at full strength and have played 8 times in the last 12 weeks, England haven't played for neigh on 5 months...... There's always the chance that NZ can put 50 points on any team. Despite 6/7 being very good players IMO the backrow's not well balanced.

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Tense first half in the ENG/NZ game. Superb individual try taken by May, AB's look like they can score nearly every time they have the ball which to be fair hasn't been all that much but the try was a little soft. They do demonstrate what England do not though-getting the basics right, game management and taking chances. Farrell should have taken the 3 points when he went for the corner? However Mike Brown could have been in.

Still well poised with a slim lead at half time but expect the AB's to come back strong, worried that Savea has been quiet.......

Got the Wales game recording.

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Been a very frustrating second half of rugby this. England have just looked clueless and feels like they've played the entire second half in their own 22, taking wave after wave of AB attack. Owen Farrell hasn't had a good game, missed touch, poor tactical kicking.

Most frustrating. On a better day we could have had em!

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Arrgggh FFS we were clueless in that second half score line closer in the end than I expected.

Status quo continues, pack on average had it and will compete possibly come out on top against anyone. Halves had games to forget, Eastmond was very good I felt minus his charged down kick-really the pressure should have been relieved by someone else, he tackled well, looked to create some chances when it was on.

NZ are bloody good at winning ball off their own restarts, why were we constantly going for the driving maul so deep in out own half???

Onwards to next week different kind of challenge but reckon we'll be much the better from this game.

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Sensational stuff from Ireland! Huuuuge win for them, particularly when you think of the experience they were missing. They gave the Boks a hiding.

Unlike England, Ireland were able to execute a game plan and stick to it. Gona watch the Wales game back now. England against a wounded Springboks side will be interesting.....

Well done

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Almost forgot about the jocks...... Have it recorded but seen the score-good result for them with a core of Glasgow players who are playing well domestically look like they're heading in the right direction? Despite the points conceded when's the last time they had such a tally? More so against a top tier nation?

Honours even between the NH and SH sides? (I'm inc France v Fiji)

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GravelBen said:

I dare say the NZ/England match would have had a bigger margin with a competent/neutral ref, Owens had a shocker! The better team won, but he did his best to spoil an otherwise good game of rugby.

Yes, he continually missed Richie McCaw laying off side, handling the ball in the ruck off his feet and from the side, standing up in the way of the England scrum half and other numerous New Zealand infringements.

NZ should have won by a bigger margin the place kicking was shocking at times. The thing that was worrying for me is when Coles went off you'd have never have know NZ were a man down and it did nothing to relieve the pressure England had put on themselves.

DJRC said:

The last one try was delib collapsing scrum, third in a row I think?
Owen F had his worst game for England I think I've seen - his lack of game time exposed. Mike Brown likewise his worst game for England.

Up front I think England were v v good, Dave Attwell almost singlehandhly took the Blacks lineout apart, when did anyone last see the ABs lose two of their own lineouts consecutively? We had go forward every time but a lot was in the wrong part of the pitch due to some lousy kicking.

The Blacks won that match with superb game management , kicking England exactly where they wanted them. England lacked the ability to do anything about it for 30mins in the second half.

Agree. May be slightly controversial but I'd think we need to see someone else at 6. Tom Wood got pinged a few times yesterday and I think we need someone capable of doing more carrying. The thing is Wood plays 7 for his club and Robshaw 6 and once upon a time both looked very promising in their positions. The Robshaw debate has been done to death he had his usually consistent performance yesterday and outplayed McCaw in the first half. With two decent lineout locks in Woods lineout option isn't as necessary. We don't seem to be able to capitalise when the forwards are on the front as one is taking decent running lines. I think JL is worth a look at 6 when he's back from injury, does what Wood does only better. When you look at what Jerome Kaino does for NZ we need something along those lines. BV didn't have his best game yesterday.

We're past the point of no return with OF at 10. Lancaster has virtually built his team around him so no one else has had a bloody look in. It's a if they've wanted a Wilkinson clone, place kicking strong on defence, OK distributing skills. However he doesn't have the rugby brain/nonce of JW. Ford seems fragile defensively, which is one thing OF isn't. Cipriani is used to playing behind a pack that comes under pressure and so his tactical kicking needs to be good and is far better than Farrell's. We need to bring our wings in more, but I wonder if we have the skillset to play such a game, evident in not being able to score when it's on.

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hornetrider said:

Do you mean nous?!

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Predictions for the weekend tests anyone?

Eng Vs SA

First of all Steve Walsh is officiating.......

With both teams somewhat backed into a corner after the result/performances of last week it should make for an intense and highly physical encounter. I started out saying England needed to win 3/4 of these tests to be seen as moving forward and progressing from where they were. I think it will be tight. I've gone on about this quite a bit but our backrow is completely unbalanced particularly for this clash we need a stronger physical presence/carrier in the from of Haskell, as much as I like Tom Wood as a player I don't see him as a sub and isn't bringing enough to the team with what seems to be the first choice 7/8. Same goes for Billy V, he's just a bit too one dimensional for me and up against a physical well drilled opposition pack gets stopped on the gain line. Unlike Wood though I think Vunipola is an impact player and could do a job from the bench when the opposition is tiring. Robshaw is part of the problem but is the least likely to be dropped, without a fetcher in there teams aren't having to worry too much about the breakdown.

The Saffers don't have the physical edge you'd have come to expect and they've been trying to vary their game. Bismark starts on the bench, Etzebeth was out injured for a while and doesn't look to have got anywhere near to the form he was showing a couple of years ago. Matfield despite being in good shape for his age is pushing 39 and shows the issues the Boks are having at lock. No Alberts available in the back row, no crash ball type centre currently available. New wonder kid Pollard dropped to the bench, generally whole sale changes after the Ireland defeat is good news for England. The rolling Faumuina try last week was worrying that our forwards couldn't kill it but I think we may have the edge tomorrow up front.

I get that Farrell is your first choice #10 Mr Lancaster, I've never been his biggest fan but have come to realise he's young but overall a good if limited player WHEN on form. If for any reason something happens this season and he's not available for the WC we've limited experience within this side to step up. Ford although flaky at times is in better form and would have given him some starts.

Young Watson starting on the wing, exciting player hope he does well.

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iiyama said:

Has anyone seen a team lineup for England?

It's last weeks team minus Young Watson in for Roko.

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We're doing our best to gift this game to the Saffers, who other than showing some ferocity at the breakdown haven't looked all that.

You can't gift points against top sides and expect to win. We were lucky not to have conceded those last 3 points-that would have been Tom wood responsible 6 points then.

Sorry I keep on going on about this but our backrow is just not balanced, Robshaw plays with his heart on his sleeve, carries (without getting over the gain line) and tackles well there's no room in this side for him and Tom Wood IMO. Some very static stuff in attack allow the Boks to target the breakdown a pilfer ball.

In attack we're just fking useless. Very frustrating half of rugby, I don't expect us to get back in to this unfortunately.

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irocfan said:

I hope you're wrong - but I'm beginning to think that you may not be

My Jedi mind trick reverse phycology is working then..........

That wasn't a lineout though.

Well lets see where the game goes now.........

ETA can we pitch in and subsidise a move to France for Farrell? He shouldn't have been involved in these Autumn internationals at all due to lack of play. Win or loose today Lancaster needs to start picking people on form.

Edited by a311 on Saturday 15th November 15:49

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FFS I'm really becoming disillusioned with this current England set up now.

There's a lot of talent out there it's just not being managed correctly end of IMO.

Lancaster has built his team around Owen Farrell and with his dad sat next to him in the coaching box doesn't seem to want to look at anyone else. There's no fking point having two wingers on the pitch in this current set up may as well have another two forwards on the pitch....

Brown looked more assured today, I thought Barrit also had a good game. Morgan to start over Vunipola for the Samoa and Australia.

South Africa weren't great they were just less bad than us.

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Lancaster has had what 2 plus years now? At first he did well after the world cup what was needed was a complete change in culture in the team as well as shedding what was left of the old guard.

I'm starting to wonder how much influence Farrell snr has on Lancaster, whether you like him or not he shouldn't have been picked for this series one because he's short of game time and two we need to give plan B some game time. Also I can't help but feel Farrell Saracens connection has had some influence on Vuniplola starting ahead or Morgan.

Watching the France game last night they were playing with pace and width which will also ask more questions over the course of a game than what England were doing yesterday trucking it up the middle.

1-5 minus Hartley when he's being an idiot are as good as angone but huge question marks over rest. Feeling like we've not really got anywhere since the last WC. Best of all these jokers have had their contracts extended until 2016. Bug decesion's to be made and fast.

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9mm said:

The performance needs to be looked at in the context of having to field very under strength teams for the last two matches against the top two in the world. I think Farrell can come again but I regard Hartley as a dangerous liability who I don't like to see in an England shirt. This is far from World Cup winning form but beating NZ and SA with the personnel available was always going to be fanciful and the fact is they came close. I'll reserve judgement until we are at full strength.

I agree in part but to be honest whilst the injury list is long we've got equal replacements or long standing injury issues during the Lancaster reign. We've missed Joe Launchburry for the work he does in the ground/in the contact area which has shown the Wood/Robshaw balance up more. Dan Cole and Corbs are arguably the first choice props and haven't been available for what feels like donkeys years. Cole also added a bit more on the deck and around the park but I think our 2nd and 3rd choice props aren't far off.

Centres we still don't know who our best partnership is, Tuilangi will no doubt come back in, doesn't matter who's on the wing these days. Could we have won on Saturday with a full strength side possibly, but the current set up seems to be relient on creating little and making less mistake than the oppo and taking 3 pointers. Will do against most teams but more often than not the top teams will put us away hence an earlier comment I made about Lancaster building a team that could get out of the WC pool but won't challenge.

irocfan said:

the problem is that we're addicted to stodge (playing wise) flair is still seen as a dirty word by England - if Campese had been English I suspect he'd have got, at best, a handful of caps and things do not seem to have changed

We played very loose in NZ at times, but it was obvious we don't have the skill set to chuck it about so it's about striking a balance. In both the AB's and SA games we put down very takeable chances. It's encouraging when watching the younger England age groups as the core skills seems to being developed.

irocfan said:

the problem is that we're addicted to stodge (playing wise) flair is still seen as a dirty word by England - if Campese had been English I suspect he'd have got, at best, a handful of caps and things do not seem to have changed

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Vocal Minority said:

For what I can see, England is a demonstrably better unit than at the last world cup, and to suggest otherwise is to forget how bad they were. I think the reason people feel like the team have got no where is that they were hoping (egged on by the media) for world beaters by now. Which is silly IMHO.

Big decisions and fast? I presume you mean 'sack the lot'. 12 months before a world cup. On the basis of 2 narrow defeats to the best 2 teams in the world - playing with a team with an injury list of 4 or 5 first choice starters.

Get a fking grip.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Monday 17th November 09:08

Now now no need for that.... not sure if you're being serious or this was aimed at me. Read through my various posts, I was never expecting England to have a realistic chance of winning the WC, what frustrates me is the way the current crop of talent has been managed, putting all the eggs in the Farrell basket, not picking players on form, cold pick two props on the wings for all the ball the current wings get.

The score line in the last two games has flattered England in the end and is pretty much the excuse the players and management are coming out with too.