England Rugby - what is needed for a successful future....
Discussion
ok then not to de-rail the RWC thread - what is the way forward for England?
I stated on the other thread that while Robshaw may not be the best #7 in English rugby he is (at this point) possibly the best captain and ambassador we've got - and unfortunately that is a huge consideration in today's game. Bomber likely has to go, Faz should be out out out, I really can't see what Catt brings to the party at this point (is he getting any input thanks to Faz?) and we really need to lose Squeaky too (he has presided over too much failure)
Who should be in the team going forward? Who should be left out? Personally I feel the "must haves" at this point are:
Brown
Watson
Ford
Care
Lawes
Launchbury
Hartley
Billy V
Morgan
Robshaw (until we get a captain)
JJ
Slade
M Tuilagi
possibles/squad/impact replacements
B Youngs
T Youngs
Cips
Foden
Marler
Mako V
Kruis
Itoje
Ashton
Wade
Coach
NOT Sir C!!!!
I stated on the other thread that while Robshaw may not be the best #7 in English rugby he is (at this point) possibly the best captain and ambassador we've got - and unfortunately that is a huge consideration in today's game. Bomber likely has to go, Faz should be out out out, I really can't see what Catt brings to the party at this point (is he getting any input thanks to Faz?) and we really need to lose Squeaky too (he has presided over too much failure)
Who should be in the team going forward? Who should be left out? Personally I feel the "must haves" at this point are:
Brown
Watson
Ford
Care
Lawes
Launchbury
Hartley
Billy V
Morgan
Robshaw (until we get a captain)
JJ
Slade
M Tuilagi
possibles/squad/impact replacements
B Youngs
T Youngs
Cips
Foden
Marler
Mako V
Kruis
Itoje
Ashton
Wade
Coach
NOT Sir C!!!!
el stovey said:
I don't think Lancaster should go, England are there or thereabouts they just need some consistency in selection to become a more settled side. I would possibly allow foreign based players to be selected and get rid of Rob Andrew.
the problem is that Bomber brought in Faz and sanctioned a lot of the issues we've faced and due that I suspect he should go. A while ago it was argued (by the management) that bringing in France based players would destabilise the squad and lead to resentments and yet they brought in/fast-tracked Burgess and that does seem to support the 'French issue'. I suspect that were I Burrell I'd refuse to play for England until Faz & bomber have departed. This is not to 'do down' SB - if I were offered a chance to represent my country I'd say "YES!!" even now-
Madness60 said:
There is some real old fashioned guff here! 
We don't have the pack of baby eaters that could do that and anyway that sort of play will not win against the best teams.
What we do have is the basis of a good front five, need to rebuild a back row and then decide how we play the game. For me I would go with
Vunipola
Hartley (adds solidity to scrum and lineout)
Cole
Attwood (proper grunt and good in the line out)
Launchbury (real class act)
Itoje (no standout 6, he'll add lineout, grunt and power in the loose)
Kvesic (need a proper 7, wouldn't pick Armitage, he knew the rules)
Morgan (Hughes when he becomes available YES!!)
Youngs (best current scrum half, need to offer a threat at the base to slow down defences and give a fraction more time)
May
Ford
Tuilagi (fit and constantly watching how to play and not just bosh by Nonu)
Josephs
Watson
Brown
Marler
George
Brookes
Lawes (maybe Slater)
Robshaw
Simpson
Slade (10,12)
Nowell (11,13-15)
interesting - personally I'd lose May, unfair on him as he's done well (at least compared to most in England's RWC2015 set-up) but if you want a try-scorer who's flakey on defence I'd have Wade (or even Ashton), I'd have Care too (as long as he has his kicking sorted out - much prefer him to Youngs). I'd also suggest Foden (9, 15), Cips (10, 15 possibly emergency wing he's certainly got the wheels for it).We don't have the pack of baby eaters that could do that and anyway that sort of play will not win against the best teams.
What we do have is the basis of a good front five, need to rebuild a back row and then decide how we play the game. For me I would go with
Vunipola
Hartley (adds solidity to scrum and lineout)
Cole
Attwood (proper grunt and good in the line out)
Launchbury (real class act)
Itoje (no standout 6, he'll add lineout, grunt and power in the loose)
Kvesic (need a proper 7, wouldn't pick Armitage, he knew the rules)
Morgan (Hughes when he becomes available YES!!)
Youngs (best current scrum half, need to offer a threat at the base to slow down defences and give a fraction more time)
May
Ford
Tuilagi (fit and constantly watching how to play and not just bosh by Nonu)
Josephs
Watson
Brown
Marler
George
Brookes
Lawes (maybe Slater)
Robshaw
Simpson
Slade (10,12)
Nowell (11,13-15)
and more snippets coming out (this time via ESPN)
England presented a united front throughout the build up to the World Cup, but a flashpoint between Danny Cipriani and attacking skills coach Mike Catt occurred the day before the final 31-man squad was announced.
Shortly after being informed he was to be cut, a disappointed Cipriani was told to resume training and when his effort level was perceived to be below that required, he received a dressing down from Catt.
A row erupted and Cipriani received support from the players, who deemed Catt's response to be too personal.
Seriously?? We all know DC can be a bit of a knob BUT he does seem to have really hauled his attitude around. You'd have thought that to be told "you're out" would be quite devastating and cut him some slack and/or a human touch applied.
I must admit that the more I read about things the more that it seems as if this has been a clusterf
k - I'll repeat that I actually have nothing against Sam B but he shouldn't have been rushed in the way he was. If squad unity is one of the major reasons for not getting in the fat Armitage then surely even a 3 year old could work out that bringing in a nobody with poor rugby skills (in terms of union) wasn't going to win massive support.
We may not have had harbour jumping or dwarf throwing but this would appear to not be a good place to be
England presented a united front throughout the build up to the World Cup, but a flashpoint between Danny Cipriani and attacking skills coach Mike Catt occurred the day before the final 31-man squad was announced.
Shortly after being informed he was to be cut, a disappointed Cipriani was told to resume training and when his effort level was perceived to be below that required, he received a dressing down from Catt.
A row erupted and Cipriani received support from the players, who deemed Catt's response to be too personal.
Seriously?? We all know DC can be a bit of a knob BUT he does seem to have really hauled his attitude around. You'd have thought that to be told "you're out" would be quite devastating and cut him some slack and/or a human touch applied.
I must admit that the more I read about things the more that it seems as if this has been a clusterf
k - I'll repeat that I actually have nothing against Sam B but he shouldn't have been rushed in the way he was. If squad unity is one of the major reasons for not getting in the fat Armitage then surely even a 3 year old could work out that bringing in a nobody with poor rugby skills (in terms of union) wasn't going to win massive support. We may not have had harbour jumping or dwarf throwing but this would appear to not be a good place to be
Joey Ramone said:
That's because Ford is possibly the most naturally gifted rugby player that England has produced since Guscott's heyday. Joseph is the only other player on the pitch with the same sort of instinct. And Slade has it too, but was deemed surplus to requirements. Because God forbid you actually have three instinctive rugby players from 10-13.
I'd actually disagree with that he is certainly up there but I'd argue that Cips is more naturally gifted. I'd say what Ford has is a head that's more tightly screwed onfor all the bending of their rules though if fat Armitage was a Saffa or crim he'd still not have been able to play for them due to not enough caps. I have absolutely no sympathy for him at this point in as much as he knew what the situation was and he decided that money was more important than caps (I don't blame the guy TBH!!), then he went and re-signed....
Kermit power said:
The only one I can see who really has a right to be monumentally pissed off is Luther Burrell.
you're not kidding - I'm not his biggest fan (he hasn't really kicked on as much as I'd have hoped and still "goes missing" during matches) but compared to the shower of st we've just been watching....Challo said:
Can anyone advise how Burgess has been playing for Bath at 6? Seems crazy that he has had one season at Bath after moving from league, and suddenly England decide that he has enough ability to play at the world stage for England, and he is that good he can play in a completely different position.
ahhhh - but if you knew how that worked you too could be an England coach!!DocJock said:
I'm going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that Burgess didn't do all that poorly.
He was better than Barritt. Made his tackles and when carrying consistently got behind the tackler. Problem was Robshaw is not fast enough in support to take the offload.
Better than Farrell at 12, managed to stay on the field.
He's no finished article but he didn't play any worse than the alternatives.
I agree with the above - however being better than 2/3 of the players representing England isn't exactly setting the bar high! Hopefully he'll go back to Ford Snr @ Bath and learn how to become a cracking 6 and then (hopefully!) we'll see the real "slammin' Sam"He was better than Barritt. Made his tackles and when carrying consistently got behind the tackler. Problem was Robshaw is not fast enough in support to take the offload.
Better than Farrell at 12, managed to stay on the field.
He's no finished article but he didn't play any worse than the alternatives.
DocJock said:
Claims in the press now that Lancaster wanted Burrell (and gave him this impression) but acquiesced to Farrell and Catt who wanted Burgess.
Also suggestion that Eastmond is so pissed off he's considering going back to league.
hard to disagree with Eastwood (and LB!!!) being pissed off. Hope he doesn't go back to leagueAlso suggestion that Eastmond is so pissed off he's considering going back to league.
London424 said:
ETA: I'd prefer to pick the same players regardless of opposition. Not switching your whole approach and team to combat the strengths of an opposition.
OH fk YES!!!! This, this 1,000,000 times this!!! If you're good enough let others worry about how you play - let them adjust their style (with all the potential issues that comes with it) and you just get on with your game. Fair play maybe the odd tweak (eg Ma'a Nonu for SBW, Nadolo for Savea) but other than that play your game.stay classy Haskell...
“Sorry Judos [sic]” wrote James Haskell in reply to 2003 World Cup winner Lewis Moody, when he dared to suggest England might need to start looking to the future. “I’m 30 years old not 40. You kept playing when half your body was clinically dead.”
And when Neil Back – also, inconveniently, a World Cup winner – advised Haskell not to “take your selfie stick on to the pitch this time like you did against Fiji,” [it was in fact a Go Pro camera], he was promptly told: “I wasn’t even playing! You’re so old and out of touch your eyes don’t work. I hope your book sales go better than your coaching.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-uni...
“Sorry Judos [sic]” wrote James Haskell in reply to 2003 World Cup winner Lewis Moody, when he dared to suggest England might need to start looking to the future. “I’m 30 years old not 40. You kept playing when half your body was clinically dead.”
And when Neil Back – also, inconveniently, a World Cup winner – advised Haskell not to “take your selfie stick on to the pitch this time like you did against Fiji,” [it was in fact a Go Pro camera], he was promptly told: “I wasn’t even playing! You’re so old and out of touch your eyes don’t work. I hope your book sales go better than your coaching.”
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-uni...
on the one hand Brown has it 100% correct...
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-uni...
on the other, I thought we were meant to be trying to be the best anyway and if we weren't why the fk not???
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-uni...
on the other, I thought we were meant to be trying to be the best anyway and if we weren't why the f
k not???a311 said:
Generally I think we need to get some right hard/nasty bds in our pack too, it's getting better but private schools don't seem to produce these kinds of players?!
well let's be honest here, didn't our days of nasty packs coincide with public schools?ds in our pack too, it's getting better but private schools don't seem to produce these kinds of players?!Kermit power said:
Is there scope for the nasty bds to do their thing in the era of TMO replays?
that's where being clever comes in ds to do their thing in the era of TMO replays?Edited by irocfan on Tuesday 13th October 22:48
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