TrainerRoad, Wahoo KICKR and FTP

[E65Ross]

Quick question to those who use TrainerRoad....I'm wondering whether the calculation for my FTP is correct or not...

I just did a 20 minute test. I had a problem with the trainer moving at around 12-13mins into the 20minute effort so for a short spell I had to pause the workout to quickly move it and get back on the bike. This altered my heart rate so the estimated FTHR is obviously going to be a little low but I'm curious as to the power.

For some reason the trainer went into ERG mode, I was led to believe it would be in "level" mode. anyway.....here is a screenshot of the result



Now, you can see that for the bulk of it I was hanging on to around 210W or so, and my HR was somewhere around the 165-170 mark for most of it.

bare in mind I'm only 53kgs at the moment....but it gave me an FTP if 170W and a FTHR of 137, can that be right? I apprecite the heart rate would clearly be higher but what about the power?

If I can just about sustain 210W or so for 20mins then surely I could sustain more than 170 for an hour...maybe??

It wasn't performed under perfect conditions, I had cycled 87 miles Friday and another 20 miles last night as well!

I'm half inclined to up it from 170 to 175 or something, what do you think?

I must say that I love how it determines your fitness to work out how hard you should be working on workouts and adjusts the trainer resistance accordingly. Looks like a great bit of software.

Many thanks in advance

Edited by E65Ross on Sunday 9th August 11:35

[E65Ross]

edit

I have noticed that going back into the 20 minute test with an FTP of 170 asks me to try a power of 183 for the 20 minute period. You can see that I can easily do that, as I averaged over 200.....it seems as though the FTP reading is perhaps around 10% too low?Looking online it says to take the 20 minute average and multiply by 0.95. My average was around 208 if you take the 1st couple of minutes of around 180W into the equations. This would give an FTP of 198W which seems a bit more realistic!

Having plugged that number into TrainerRoad and gone to enter the 20 minute test again it's asking for me to try around 210W for the 20min effort....which is about what I did! This would give me an FTP/KG of about 4W/kg

So should i just change my FTP manually to 198?

Thanks

Edited by E65Ross on Sunday 9th August 15:46

[E65Ross]

simonF10 said:

Try a few workouts at 198. If you can't complete the workouts or are really struggling with them maybe drop your ftp down a few watts. Alternatively if you find the workouts easy to complete, raise your ftp a few watts. I find myself doing this quite a bit rather than taking ftp tests all the time (don't have the mental strength for an all out effort indoors for 20 mins).

That's exactly it, I really don't fancy doing that test again, I'd much rather get stuck in with the workouts.

I'm beginning to think what it has done is include the actual time spent moving the trainer back and added to the overall average. If I took 2 mins.....my average would be 208/22mins rather than 20, that would give an FTP a lot closer to the 170 predicted than what is realistically true.

I'm going to plug it at 198....yes, I had a small amount of rest in between, but my legs weren't feeling fresh either and suspect around the 200 mark is probably quite realistic anyway.

Just had a look at some of the sessions and whilst some don't seem too bad, others seem really difficult!

[E65Ross]

simonF10 said:

Also try doing a workout called Lamarck, it's 4x10 right at 100% ftp with 2 minute recoveries in between efforts. I find if I can can complete this but feel like I don't have much left at the end my ftp is about right.

Perfect. I'll give this a go soon. I half feel guilty using the trainer when the weather is so nice.... But I got it yesterday and so had to try it out! I bought it with winter in mind but I know the earlier I use some of these workouts once a week (replacing one of my rides) the sooner I'll get faster.

Just need to buy a tall powerful fan now! Was absolutely dripping earlier!

Thanks very much!

There are some great workouts on there, some of the longer ones look seriously tough!

[E65Ross]

Thank you everyone for the replies. Really do appreciate it.

Before posting on here I contacted TrainerRoad and they got back to me and said they looked my graph online, edited out the "off the bike section" and it came up with a value of 201....they said the fact I got off the bike this should be lowered a little but said 170 was far too low and, as I thought, suggested somewhere around 195-197 or so.

I don't start work until later Wednesday, I usually cycle in but I MIGHT try the 20 minute test again. My only concern was I'm almost certain it went into ERG mode hence my power was so consistent. Having said that....it did feel JUST about right, I was blowing out my arse come the end of it. Any ideas why it may have done that? I did put it in level mode initially, it went into level mode for the 5min test but I'm so, so sure it went to ERG for the 20mins test, where it shouldn't. Failing that, I can easily to the test myself....do a warm up, press lap on my garmin edge, do 5mins hard, press lap, 5mins cooling off and press lap again for the 20 minute effort and get the lap average for the 20mins and multiply that by 0.95.

If I don't do the test I think I'll put it at 197, try a few tough sessions and see how I get on.

For those that use it, how often do you use it in the summer to replace rides?

My current routine at the moment is

Monday - 20-25 mile ride approx 1000-1300ft climb
Tues - rest
Wednesday 40-45miles usually around 2750-3kft climb
Thursday - 20 miles 1k ft climb
Friday - rest
Saturday - 80 miles (give or take) varying amount of hills
Sunday - easy 20 miles

I'm inclined to ditch the 40-45 mile ride and use this to do a tough session. I'm not that inclined to do a shorter session on the turbo, then ride 20 miles to work after that What do you think? I mainly bought it for winter but there's no denying if I use trainerroad I'd get quicker, sooner. I also have bought a subscription for virtual trainer for riding virtual routes.....but I found 1 problem, the 26T gear 1 isn't light enough for some hills, so I may swap the cassette before using that!

The only problem I can see with ERG mode at the moment is that you're always at your perfect cadence, whereas that's not always the case on the bike going up steep inclines etc. But there's no denying it's a great way to get a good workout. I guess if you want to simulate hills then when the power increases then you can decrease your rpm and let the trainer match the power.

Many thanks again!

Edited by E65Ross on Monday 10th August 09:30

[E65Ross]

Sorry but got a couple of other questions....

I don't fancy doing a training plan on trainerroad because I do actually want to do the majority of my rides outside (certainly at the moment!). So for those of you who use trainerroad, do you just pick and choose any session depending on how you're feeling and what you fancy?

Also, if in ERG mode doing a hard session what happens if you can't match the power.... In the other modes you could just put it in an easy gear and spin lightly, but in ERG mode you can't do that? Just stop and pause it?

Cheers again.

[E65Ross]

Yeah I updated the firmware before I ever used it

Thanks guys

[E65Ross]

simonk68 said:

Hang on, are you saying you did your test with the trainer in ERG mode? (or am I misunderstanding...)

If you did, you haven't really done an FTP test at all I'm afraid - just a decent workout at some arbitrary wattage.

Trainerroad should put your kickr into level mode for the whole portion of the test segment. You then need to go flat out for this period, and use your own judgement to control the effort, at whatever cadence you choose. If you did use ERG mode here, and finished the test, almost certainly you would have a power output below your FTP unless you'd magically guessed the correct number.

Yes, for some reason trainerroad put the kickr in ERG mode..... However, I just about hung in there and really couldn't have gone much harder to be honest so I think the default value of 200 isn't far off!

I set trainerroad to level 0 before starting the workout so I could warm up at my own pace. Perhaps this is why it switched to ERG mode.... I'm not sure. But you can see from the graph that ERG mode was not used for the 5 minute interval, so quite why it was for the 20 minute test I have no idea. But yes, the default value probably wasn't far off. Hand on heart I don't think I could have gone any harder, the fact I hung in there suggests 200 isn't far off. Because the trainer moved (I've ordered the wahoo mat to help prevent this) I did get about 2mins off the bike, if that, which meant I had some recovery..... But I was also cycling on tired legs.

So based on this I'd say I wouldn't be too far off settings the FTP at 197.

[E65Ross]

Yeah think that's what I'll do. Not sure I fancy another test just yet!

Not sure about Wednesday yet.... Session on the turbo or longer ride into work! Decisions!

[E65Ross]

Am I right in thinking the IF number is basically how hard it is.... So say if the IF number is 0.85 you should finish feeling tired but it absolutely fked, or am I wrong? Could you still be absolutely shattered from a workout with a low IF? I'm contemplating giving something like Mt Hale a go Wednesday which is IF 0.86 and TSS 111. How tired should I feel after something like that? I don't fancy another 20 minute test just yet but want to get stuck in with some interval training.

Cheers

[E65Ross]

I've got a wahoo kickr mat being delivered today, expensive but I've read good reviews. That should hopefully stop it moving! My garage stone floor isn't perfectly even (it's flat, but is very lightly rutted) and this should hopefully solve that too.

I think I'll brave it and do another test tomorrow. At the end of the day, whilst I don't fancy doing it again, it's without question the best thing to do. As you say, if my FTP is wrong, all the sessions will be wrong.

I've been in contact with TR and they aren't sure why it went to ERG mode but I've refreshed the workouts and they said leave your keyboard close (I'll plug in a USB one and have it next to me) and press the "m" key if it goes to ERG mode again, that'll change it back to level mode.

Will let you know how I get on! Cue me getting 170 now as it first said

[E65Ross]

The mat has turned up and I've put it under the trainer. It's not quite as slip-free as I'd have liked but it's certainly solved the not-quite-level issue and hopefully it'll stop it slipping too. When turning the handlebars the trainer does seem to move a bit from side to side but as long as it doesn't move forwards I don't think it'll be a problem.

Will be trying the test tomorrow morning, with a plug in USB keyboard nearby and hope that I don't have to use it!

Will I be stupid to think I could do the test at 9-10am and then leave to cycle to work at 11am.....bearing in mind it's a 20 mile ride in! Lol

[E65Ross]

Well that was horrible

Did the 20 minute test again....but AGAIN it went into ERG mode (you can see on the attached image where....a few mins into the test). It did it at a set of instructions which makes me think that it's built into the programme. Luckily, I had a keyboard next to me, hit the "M" button and it went straight back into slope/level mode and I carried on.



FTP updated to 206 (thats 3.9W/kg....as I'm a lightweight!) but my FTHR is 140.....can that be right!? my HR was hovering around the 170 mark most of the time!!

Anyway....I'm not going to be doing that test for a while, probably not for another 2-3 months or so.

Ross.

[E65Ross]

Just did my 1st session on trainerroad..... Acrodectes. I added an extra 5mins of warm up before and after the last rep 5mins recovery and then 2mins at FTP.

Bugger me it was hard work! Had to dial it back to 96% for most of session, legs were tired after the test and then riding 20 miles to work yesterday so not too bad I guess!

Properly enjoyed it, so much better than a traditional turbo trainer it's unreal. I've also just fitted an ultegra 12-30t cassette for use on virtual trainer. fk off doing something like Alpe D'Huez on a 26t

TrainerRoad got in touch and said it was indeed a fault with the programme causing it to shift back to ERG mode and in the next day or 2 they'll be doing an update.

Thanks everyone for your help. I've no doubt this will make me a better rider.

[E65Ross]

I started the general build plan a couple of weeks ago and have been sticking reasonably closely to it, but I have done my longer rides outdoors and a few other rides outdoors too..... The longest ride on the plan so far is only 150mins yet I've been doing over 250mins....

However, I think I already need to increase my FTP a touch as today I came across acrodectes which is meant to be a tough workout. I set some of the interval sessions to 101% because the kickr always seems to come 1W or 2W short at the end of an interval (it takestakes a few seconds to build from recovery pace to hard effort) and today I did all of acrodectes at 101% except the last set were at 105% and I had enough in me to put the last effort to 110% and with 30secs to go I put it to 130%

Great bit of software and without doubt will keep me going through winter.

I did have to buy a huge fk off fan though to keep me cool

[E65Ross]

I'm generally really enjoying the turbo sessions, as much as riding outdoors in some cases!

I've paid for the annual subscription rather than monthly.

Long ride planned for tomorrow as I'm off work (but working Saturday!) and so will probably do that outside if the weather is nice. I also have cycleops virtual trainer and have numerous gpx routes on there so I'd be tempted to try that out if the weather is grim.

[E65Ross]

I didn't calibrate it. I have performed a "spin down" a couple of times using the wahoo utility app on my phone, is this the same thing?

I have now been using this for approx 3 weeks and got to say I've learned a lot about myself and I already feel I'm improving a little.

I have, 2 or 3 times now, made the 60 minute interval sessions longer. I always add a longer warm up before any session and also increase the warm down too (so my workouts get an overall lower IF rating....but I'd rather do them once warmed up a bit better!!) and this morning I did "young" which is quite a gutsy session. I added a 6 minute rest interval after the 3rd set and then added in a 4th set. I managed to complete it at 101-102% but upped the last 5 minute interval.

I think the fact that I was able to do this (admittedly I was having to work a bit for it!) suggests my FTP should go up a little. I'll do another test in a few weeks.

Really enjoying it, absolutely cracking bit of software!

[E65Ross]

m444ttb said:

I've been tempted a Wahoo KickR for a while. Sounds like you think it's worth the money then? I want to use it with TrainerRoad and Sufferfest videos through the winter and into next summer.

Definitely. It's not a cheap bit of kit but compared to a traditional turbo trainer it's just in another league. I found I got bored quite easily on an old turbo but this way really keeps me entertained.

I know a friend who was able to get me the Kickr at trade price, so instead of the rrp of £950 I paid £712 (that includes a 5% handling fee so a bit more than trade price) but it still wasn't cheap.

Would I have paid over £900 for it now I know what it's like? Yes.

I treated myself to this because at the end of last year I had to have major surgery....running has always been my main sport (I used to run 60-70 miles/week!!) bu unfortunately a seemingly permanent side-effect means I can't run very well. Cycling is OK....I've always loved cycling but really struggled to get out in the winter (I'd only ever cycle if I was injured from running in reality) but with this kickr and trainer road...as well as cycle ops virtual training, I've no doubt at all I can keep a good level of fitess up through the winter.

Don't regret buying it at all.

I personally prefer hooking it up to a laptop with a garmin ANT+ USB stick, rather than using the phone/tablet apps because I find editing workouts etc just much easier on a laptop, plus having a half decent size screen ahead is better IMO.

Hope that helps. Any other questions about the kickr just ask!

[E65Ross]

Vans said:

E65Ross said:

I didn't calibrate it. I have performed a "spin down" a couple of times using the wahoo utility app on my phone, is this the same thing?
!

Sorry thats what i meant, It makes a difference if you do the spin down when the trainer is warmed up.

Thanks. I'm guessing it doesn't matter whether you perform a spindown using the wahoo utility app or trainerroad? Did one a couple of days ago after it had been used but didn't use trainerroad.

[E65Ross]

Just did another 20 minute test this morning and having a previous score to beat really helps. Old score was 216 watts (ftp of 206) and today I got 239 watts (ftp 226). Being the lightweight that I am that's 4.2W/kg so not too bad. Do need to put some weight on!

Still very impressed with this bit of kit!