Old steel frame - what would you do with it?
Discussion
I've had this frame for a while and I've finally started to do something with it (well I've taken it apart) but now I can't make my mind up. It's an Argo Racing Cycles road frame from 1987 that my father in law used in triathlons during the early 90s. It was a lot of money for him at the time and the frame has a lot of memories so he wanted me to do something with it.
The bike as a whole is somewhat past it's former glory so I want to bring it back to life and use it a bit. The frame is going to be renovated by Argos and I have a colour scheme in mind and it'll have new Reynolds and Argos period decals. But beyond that I'm lost. Broadly I've come up with four options:
1. Put the mix and match parts my father in law left on it back. Dura Ace 7400 crank and derailleurs, 8 speed cassette with some later Ultegra STI shifters and Tiagra brakes. This would be the cheapest option as it'll be little more than some new cables, a new Selle Italia Turbo saddle and assembly.
2. Go mega modern. Ask Argos to remove the cable guides and old downtube shifter bosses then fit a full SRAM eTap groupset. I'd also fit a modern saddle and some new, but period styled, Cinelli bars and stem (a longer stem would make me fit the bike a little better anyway). This is the most expensive option.
3. Return to original spec. The bike was original 6 speed Dura Ace 7400, but my father in law squeezed an 8 speed cassette in by widening the frame a touch. I'd need Argos to reverse this and I'd also need to find some period correct downtube shifters, brake hoods, brake callipers, wheels, freewheel and 6 speed cassette. These parts aren't that easy/cheap to find in worthwhile condition it seems.
4. Cheaper modernisation. Fit a current spec Shimano Ultegra (poss. 105) groupset along with some compatible Shimano wheels (the spacing should already be ok for 11 speed but easy enough to sort), a new period Saddle \ bars \ stem.
I could honestly talk myself into any of the options depending on the day of the week. Option 1 is ok until I realise I'm not very excited by it. Option 2 is great until I add up the cost of parts and think eTap would be better on my TT bike! Option 3 is frustrating to execute and I'm not honestly sure I'll enjoy 6 speeds and downtube shifters. So perhaps option 4 fits the bill...?! This is turning into a dreadful 'what car' type thread already.
The bike as a whole is somewhat past it's former glory so I want to bring it back to life and use it a bit. The frame is going to be renovated by Argos and I have a colour scheme in mind and it'll have new Reynolds and Argos period decals. But beyond that I'm lost. Broadly I've come up with four options:
1. Put the mix and match parts my father in law left on it back. Dura Ace 7400 crank and derailleurs, 8 speed cassette with some later Ultegra STI shifters and Tiagra brakes. This would be the cheapest option as it'll be little more than some new cables, a new Selle Italia Turbo saddle and assembly.
2. Go mega modern. Ask Argos to remove the cable guides and old downtube shifter bosses then fit a full SRAM eTap groupset. I'd also fit a modern saddle and some new, but period styled, Cinelli bars and stem (a longer stem would make me fit the bike a little better anyway). This is the most expensive option.
3. Return to original spec. The bike was original 6 speed Dura Ace 7400, but my father in law squeezed an 8 speed cassette in by widening the frame a touch. I'd need Argos to reverse this and I'd also need to find some period correct downtube shifters, brake hoods, brake callipers, wheels, freewheel and 6 speed cassette. These parts aren't that easy/cheap to find in worthwhile condition it seems.
4. Cheaper modernisation. Fit a current spec Shimano Ultegra (poss. 105) groupset along with some compatible Shimano wheels (the spacing should already be ok for 11 speed but easy enough to sort), a new period Saddle \ bars \ stem.
I could honestly talk myself into any of the options depending on the day of the week. Option 1 is ok until I realise I'm not very excited by it. Option 2 is great until I add up the cost of parts and think eTap would be better on my TT bike! Option 3 is frustrating to execute and I'm not honestly sure I'll enjoy 6 speeds and downtube shifters. So perhaps option 4 fits the bill...?! This is turning into a dreadful 'what car' type thread already.
If it was a little more interesting as a frame that might have been an option.
The crappiest bit as it came to me was probably the shifters (they've been dug out of a box somewhere) and the bars, which looked like they had been attacked with a flapper wheel thing. The wheels were nearly new I think though. It may all clean up nicely and with a new saddle and bar tape you'd probably not notice the bars. Need to think whether it would inspire me enough to leave the Di2 carbon wonder in the shed from time to time.
The crappiest bit as it came to me was probably the shifters (they've been dug out of a box somewhere) and the bars, which looked like they had been attacked with a flapper wheel thing. The wheels were nearly new I think though. It may all clean up nicely and with a new saddle and bar tape you'd probably not notice the bars. Need to think whether it would inspire me enough to leave the Di2 carbon wonder in the shed from time to time.
gazza285 said:
Option 4 is the sensible choice, but I'd probably go with option 2, although using the later 7400 groupset, as that used 8 speed STI shifters. I'd get the shifters fitted, and then stuff like brake calipers can be sourced and fitted later.
Something I have done in the past is fit newer 10 speed freehub units into older 6/7 speed Shimano hubs. With some of the old hubs you can, but not with all. The wheel will need more dish putting in it, and you might need to swap spacers about between the cones and lock nuts.
I was still using 8 speed stuff from the late eighties/early nineties on my cyclocross bikes up until last year as it was so reliable.
Option 3 I think you meant? I guess 8 speed (lets call it Option 3a) and keeping it DA7400 but going with the easier to find STI shifters is a very sensible option. I have wheels that fit (although they are modern looking wheels) and the cassette for that as it was rideable when I was given it (bar no front derailleur). In fact that's the cheapest option for sure. My father in law probably has the 7400 brakes somewhere but reckons the 10 year old Tigra brakes were better anyway!Something I have done in the past is fit newer 10 speed freehub units into older 6/7 speed Shimano hubs. With some of the old hubs you can, but not with all. The wheel will need more dish putting in it, and you might need to swap spacers about between the cones and lock nuts.
I was still using 8 speed stuff from the late eighties/early nineties on my cyclocross bikes up until last year as it was so reliable.
That seems like the cheapest route to get something in nice condition without a huge outlay. I probably won't build it myself so I will get new bars sorted when it's all cabled up, but otherwise I can change the stem, saddle and brakes (maybe wheels) later on if I fancy it.
I'd ridden it in the 'bitsa' spec it arrived in. As there was no front derailleur I left it on the inner ring and used it on a recovery ride. It was a nice ride. Quite compact for me, but to the extent I wouldn't ride it nor something that a longer stem wouldn't sort. The feel of a steel frame probably made more difference than anything else. The 8 speed shifters (I think they are Ultegra) didn't feel that different to the 9 speed Sora shifters on my first road bike from a few years back.
Edit to add: The sentimentality is only for the frame, not the components on it. Many of them weren't on the bike in it's prime. The frame itself was totally different before. It was given a cheap powdercoat job a few years ago while it was sat around waiting form something to happen to it following a decade on the turbo trainer. It's partly why I like the fully modern (eTap option). It was pretty much state of the art for normal folk in 1987 (so I'm told anyway) so that would follow it on component wise at least.
Edit to add: The sentimentality is only for the frame, not the components on it. Many of them weren't on the bike in it's prime. The frame itself was totally different before. It was given a cheap powdercoat job a few years ago while it was sat around waiting form something to happen to it following a decade on the turbo trainer. It's partly why I like the fully modern (eTap option). It was pretty much state of the art for normal folk in 1987 (so I'm told anyway) so that would follow it on component wise at least.
Edited by m444ttb on Thursday 23 February 13:11
That's a good idea. For now I'll leave some pics here:
Bike as it was originally. I believe the picture was taken in 1995 at the Bath triathlon
This is how it looked when my father in law gave it to me back last summer:
And now 99% stripped down ready to go to Argos. Speaking of which their current lead time would mean I don't see the frame again for 6-8 weeks. So long as I don't want to change the frame (spacing and/or removing bits) then it gives me a while to think.
Bike as it was originally. I believe the picture was taken in 1995 at the Bath triathlon
This is how it looked when my father in law gave it to me back last summer:
And now 99% stripped down ready to go to Argos. Speaking of which their current lead time would mean I don't see the frame again for 6-8 weeks. So long as I don't want to change the frame (spacing and/or removing bits) then it gives me a while to think.
Barchettaman said:
I don't understand how the Ultegra STI levers are indexing a Dura Ace 7400 RD correctly. The cable pull is slightly different.
Is that the case? Is the rear shifting a bit funky?
I don't recall an issue. Just had a look at the lever to see if I misremembered and they were in fact Dura Ace. Turns out I was half right and I had misremembered... they're 105 'Flight Deck'.Is that the case? Is the rear shifting a bit funky?
W00DY - That looks great on those wheels!
I already have a winter bike or two. This needs to be some different and/or special. I still can't really make up my mind bar deciding not to go back to 6 speed or go the SRAM eTap route. I'm going to measure the rear and try and 11 speed wheel in. Assuming it'll take 11 speed fine then I won't do anything to the frame and I can think on it a little longer.
Interesting. Argos will know the answer as they built the frame in the first place. My father in law claims he widened it 'a little' (whatever that means) to fit the 8 speed 7400 where it was originally 6 speed. If Argos don't want to go any further then the decision is very easy (stick with 8 speed). Assuming they don't tell me the frame has been ruined by my father in law's DIY!!! If that happens it may be tidied up and hung on the wall instead.
yellowjack said:
Personally, if it were mine I'd...
Ensure the rear dropouts were spaced to 130mm.
Get it painted in a traditional style (but not necessarily the original colours).
Fit new Dura-Ace 10 speed downtube shifters.
Fit modern 10 speed groupset (preferably Dura-Ace).
Fit 'Aero' brake levers.
...and just ride the darned thing. Finished with hand-built wheels with silver hubs, spokes, and rims, wrapped with amber-wall tyres (Compass brand, in the largest size that'll fit).
There are some real nice handlebars and stems about these days too, that have the traditional appearance to keep it looking like a classic, but performing like a new bike.
I'd love to have the funds to get cracking with a few of the frames that are rotting in my dad's shed. He's 70, and has a chronic bad back, but he won't give his bikes away because I think he secretly believes that one day he'll get around to refurbishing them and riding them again. And none of us 'kids' really wants to burst his bubble...
Now that's interesting. I knew there was 10 speed DA (fairly obvious) but never imagined they'd still be catering for downtube shifters! Not hard to find either it seems and that groupset is silver. HmmmmEnsure the rear dropouts were spaced to 130mm.
Get it painted in a traditional style (but not necessarily the original colours).
Fit new Dura-Ace 10 speed downtube shifters.
Fit modern 10 speed groupset (preferably Dura-Ace).
Fit 'Aero' brake levers.
...and just ride the darned thing. Finished with hand-built wheels with silver hubs, spokes, and rims, wrapped with amber-wall tyres (Compass brand, in the largest size that'll fit).
There are some real nice handlebars and stems about these days too, that have the traditional appearance to keep it looking like a classic, but performing like a new bike.
I'd love to have the funds to get cracking with a few of the frames that are rotting in my dad's shed. He's 70, and has a chronic bad back, but he won't give his bikes away because I think he secretly believes that one day he'll get around to refurbishing them and riding them again. And none of us 'kids' really wants to burst his bubble...
I agree on the aesthetic point. So do we think is the best looking 10 speed groupset? The current Tiagra is supposed to be very good and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the equal of the old 10 speed Ultegra in terms of shift quality. Such is the trickle down of these things. Dura-Ace 7900 (I think that's the correct set) still seems to be very expensive.
Presume that's the previous version of Tiagra as I think the current version only launched mid-2016. If not 15k miles on it is very impressive! I have the previous version on my commuter bike and the abuse it has taken with only a couple of chains required along the way has impressed me. When the drivetrain is properly clean it still runs really nicely too.
Nearly 9 months of procrastination later and I finally ordered so bits! Decided to go with the cheap option ultimately so I'm keeping the Dura-Ace chain set and derailleurs with it running 8 speed. I'm replacing the chain and cassette like for like and fitting Shimano R400 'aero' brake hoods and down tube shifters. Other than spending less money I ultimately decided the down tube shifters would make it a little more retro and something different to ride. I'm also ordering some new Cinelli bars and stem (slightly wider and slightly longer than the stuff that came off) and a new Selle Italia Turbo saddle.
Next step is to get the frame sorted by Argos (the original manufacturer) now that I know nothing needs to change. Still changing my mind daily on paint scheme though. I'm going to keep the nearly new Mavic wheels which despite not being very period looking in black will do for now. I'll probably change the tyres so may choose something with a tan wall. Once it's all back together I'll post some pictures. Hopefully early spring as Argos has quite a long lead time.
Next step is to get the frame sorted by Argos (the original manufacturer) now that I know nothing needs to change. Still changing my mind daily on paint scheme though. I'm going to keep the nearly new Mavic wheels which despite not being very period looking in black will do for now. I'll probably change the tyres so may choose something with a tan wall. Once it's all back together I'll post some pictures. Hopefully early spring as Argos has quite a long lead time.
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