traction control revisited
Discussion
ok with the increase of efi cars in pro mod what will we do to police traction control
I suggest that as all the main efi systems feature a data logger built in that the ignition timing data be made available to the tech guys on a regular and random basis
if you have ever used a traction control system you will be aware that its obvious from the ignition timing data when its activated
any thoughts??
I suggest that as all the main efi systems feature a data logger built in that the ignition timing data be made available to the tech guys on a regular and random basis
if you have ever used a traction control system you will be aware that its obvious from the ignition timing data when its activated
any thoughts??
Im not so sure its so easy to mssk if i was a tech guy and i wanted to see your ignition timing off a run you just made id escort you to your pit and stand looking over your shoulder while you downloaded the data ( much like the MSA piss test 
) bearing in mind at the moment there is only motec and BS3 used in pro mod at this time, the tech guy would only need a basic knowledge of the system to be able to look at the timing data and having used it in testing once or twice on the blower car (just so i knew what to look for in other cars) i can tell you its obvious
we need to police this now its no longer a joke...
i want to race on a level laying field
) bearing in mind at the moment there is only motec and BS3 used in pro mod at this time, the tech guy would only need a basic knowledge of the system to be able to look at the timing data and having used it in testing once or twice on the blower car (just so i knew what to look for in other cars) i can tell you its obviouswe need to police this now its no longer a joke...
i want to race on a level laying field
Robmarriott said:
How would a traction control system work? Normal wheel speed sensors as the primary 'trigger'?
If so, do you guys use a wheel speed sensor on each wheel for any other reason?
Basically, there must be some sort of physical sign that a system is fitted, surely?
as we use a spool and both wheels always turn together, it would only need a drive shaft sensorIf so, do you guys use a wheel speed sensor on each wheel for any other reason?
Basically, there must be some sort of physical sign that a system is fitted, surely?
which is fitted as a matter of course on 99% of pro mods for data logging
ok well for me when i have invested what i have im afraid trust isnt something im prepared to do any more than ferarri trust mclaren not to cheat,
ok were not F! but when your fighting at the top level (and pro mod is top of the pile in the door car world) winning is everything i do this to win, my ultimate goal is an FIA championship, everything i do is working toward that goal, and if /when i get beat i want to KNOW the other guy won because he was better not have to trust him, thats why we have rules and for me this needs to be policed and id sooner have a control ecu than have to trust other racers, i trust my family i trust my close personal friends.... and thats it
they weigh me at the track why wont anyone believe my car is a legal weight, they fuel check, they check blower o/d, they they piss test, they check sfi certs, when they could just trust us!!! and in the light of recent events when rules were broken its proved bloody right that everything should be tested,
im afraid that Fred whilst antagonizing has raised a valid point the point being that although we all say we dont do anything illegal why should anyone believe what we say,
Fred obviously either don't believe or giving the benefit of the doubt is playing a very good devils advocate ....(If you read this Loaring laugh no longer) sorry private joke....
hes been told "i don't use it" and has chosen to ignore that statement. so we need to be able to prove it or have it proved
lets face it talks cheap you can say what you like but without the evidence to back it up and prove what you say is fact your better off not wasting your time talking, and this is about anything not just traction control,
PS
having looked back through freds posts back earlier in the year i said on here i will win the msa championship again and fred said it will be Roger, and it was.. So i wouldnt be so quick to condemn fred as a troll as he obviously knows something we dont id say cynic rather than troll
ok were not F! but when your fighting at the top level (and pro mod is top of the pile in the door car world) winning is everything i do this to win, my ultimate goal is an FIA championship, everything i do is working toward that goal, and if /when i get beat i want to KNOW the other guy won because he was better not have to trust him, thats why we have rules and for me this needs to be policed and id sooner have a control ecu than have to trust other racers, i trust my family i trust my close personal friends.... and thats it
they weigh me at the track why wont anyone believe my car is a legal weight, they fuel check, they check blower o/d, they they piss test, they check sfi certs, when they could just trust us!!! and in the light of recent events when rules were broken its proved bloody right that everything should be tested,
im afraid that Fred whilst antagonizing has raised a valid point the point being that although we all say we dont do anything illegal why should anyone believe what we say,
Fred obviously either don't believe or giving the benefit of the doubt is playing a very good devils advocate ....(If you read this Loaring laugh no longer) sorry private joke....
hes been told "i don't use it" and has chosen to ignore that statement. so we need to be able to prove it or have it proved
lets face it talks cheap you can say what you like but without the evidence to back it up and prove what you say is fact your better off not wasting your time talking, and this is about anything not just traction control,
PS
having looked back through freds posts back earlier in the year i said on here i will win the msa championship again and fred said it will be Roger, and it was.. So i wouldnt be so quick to condemn fred as a troll as he obviously knows something we dont id say cynic rather than troll
Edited by Turbobird1 on Saturday 6th October 08:47
actually this thread was about traction control its use off and looking for an effective way we can police it before something we dont like is enforced upon us,
This is not a thread about John bradshaw or anyone else,
or any other subject,
running consistent sixes has no relevance to this thread, it takes 1400/1500 hp and a decent set up to do that. we did that 10 years ago with nothing special at all and a 2650lb door car at shakey it realy wasnt hard or even cost a lot of money,
Running consistant 6.0s @ 250 on bad tracks might have some, but as that isnt happening at the moment its not the issue
this is not about who is but more about who has it and not relying on trust that someone (read anyone) wont use it in the future,
This is not a thread about John bradshaw or anyone else,
or any other subject,
running consistent sixes has no relevance to this thread, it takes 1400/1500 hp and a decent set up to do that. we did that 10 years ago with nothing special at all and a 2650lb door car at shakey it realy wasnt hard or even cost a lot of money,
Running consistant 6.0s @ 250 on bad tracks might have some, but as that isnt happening at the moment its not the issue
this is not about who is but more about who has it and not relying on trust that someone (read anyone) wont use it in the future,
Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 10:07
trackday addict said:
Appreciate that Graham but if people want to crap the thread with crap then either remove it or sorry I'm going to put them straight.
If there is no rules set then anyone is free to look at our data logging info from any run in the future after they have put £250 on the roof of the car first - nothing like putting their money where their mouth is
I was suggesting that we should look at making it easier for them to police us befour someone says f.this for a game of soldiers you will all use fred blogs efi system and like it,If there is no rules set then anyone is free to look at our data logging info from any run in the future after they have put £250 on the roof of the car first - nothing like putting their money where their mouth is
wait till RB dissapears from nhra pro mod totaly all of his influence will be gone see how long we get away with what we do then,
it was only RB that made sure they still had 88 mm turbos the nhra wanted smaller,
we live in dangerous times
Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 18:54
Burndown said:
I think the ignition retard box that the fuel cars have to use in NHRA can detectt if traction control is being used and it shuts itself down and can't be used for 24 hours.
Maybe there is a way around this but that would be the sort of thing that could be done, manufacturers would need to be involved, tamper seals etc.
Then a Tech Inspector checks the box, not a racepak trace which would be down to interpretation.
we dont use any ignition retard box with EFI,Maybe there is a way around this but that would be the sort of thing that could be done, manufacturers would need to be involved, tamper seals etc.
Then a Tech Inspector checks the box, not a racepak trace which would be down to interpretation.
Edited by Burndown on Sunday 7th October 13:03
Edited by Burndown on Sunday 7th October 13:04
the only way to guarentee no one was using it would be a control ECU
which is why im asking is there any way we can police ourselves or help the tech guys to police us,
redvictor said:
So who are you going to make spend 1000's of pounds on the ECU that isn't the spec one?
If there is that much suspicion then the tech guys need to get up to speed with the ECU's out there. Remember there's a traction control system used in ADRL that's available too.
The way it's being discussed here it's like someone IS cheating already.
Is there any evidence of that?
Andy i have never said anyone IS cheating im saying we are all capable of cheating if we wanted, and there should be some threat of being caught otherwise its a free for all,If there is that much suspicion then the tech guys need to get up to speed with the ECU's out there. Remember there's a traction control system used in ADRL that's available too.
The way it's being discussed here it's like someone IS cheating already.
Is there any evidence of that?
its a bit like engine size, valve size, no one ever checks but we all know they can any time so we stick to the rules imagine getting caught running 600 ci in legal pro mod youd never be able to show your face,
well it should be the same threat for TC, at the moment there is no threat of being caught so someone unscrupulous could say what the hell lets use it no one will ever know and at the moment thats true....
i make you right Andy the tech guys need to be conversant with the different ecu's
and we could help that by being transparent and inviting them to look over our relevent data so they could get a feel for what to look for,
A missfire wouldnt be at all evident in an turbo EFI car
Edited by Turbobird1 on Sunday 7th October 20:03
all this talk about misfires
firstly a induced misfire will only occur when a rev limit is hit,
on a blower car with individual pipes you can see it as unburnt fuel exiting the headers
in a turbo car you wont see anything, and that's if there's a misfire
traction control just reduces power when cirtain criteria are met usually by retarding the ignition timing momentarily that you wont see or hear,
misfiring 50% of the run was mentioned earlier
actually at best you'd use it to control wheel speed in the first 300 ft by reducing power, no misfire no header signature no nothing,
firstly a induced misfire will only occur when a rev limit is hit,
on a blower car with individual pipes you can see it as unburnt fuel exiting the headers
in a turbo car you wont see anything, and that's if there's a misfire
traction control just reduces power when cirtain criteria are met usually by retarding the ignition timing momentarily that you wont see or hear,
misfiring 50% of the run was mentioned earlier
actually at best you'd use it to control wheel speed in the first 300 ft by reducing power, no misfire no header signature no nothing,
firstly why do you assume im worried about the first few feet??? I dont care how long you have been involved with EFI or turbos you dont need to start telling us how to drag race on here
"Get your keyboard warrior and clutch man to look at the track"
my keyboard warrior won his first pro mod championship in 1999 and knows a thing or two about this track, The project Manager has spent the last 35 years of his life looking at the track and has crewed many champions in pro mod and was a pioneer of the class befour it ever existed in the states,
retard heat boost yes.... but not in the fractions of a second that the retard operates to reduce wheel speed in this scenario,
more difficult with an auto... a new learning curve id call it and you hit the nail on the head it takes a variable out of the equation, but as i have run a clutch in big power cars for a while id say removing a variable and replacing it with a constant makes sence
"Get your keyboard warrior and clutch man to look at the track"
my keyboard warrior won his first pro mod championship in 1999 and knows a thing or two about this track, The project Manager has spent the last 35 years of his life looking at the track and has crewed many champions in pro mod and was a pioneer of the class befour it ever existed in the states,
retard heat boost yes.... but not in the fractions of a second that the retard operates to reduce wheel speed in this scenario,
more difficult with an auto... a new learning curve id call it and you hit the nail on the head it takes a variable out of the equation, but as i have run a clutch in big power cars for a while id say removing a variable and replacing it with a constant makes sence
Edited by Turbobird1 on Monday 8th October 09:14
ok well i also am not a shrinking violet..... i have run the car for a year identified problems and taken steps to address those,
with all due respect and i realy do have... what you have acheived with johns cars is outstanding and what you do with jap engines generaly is outstanding BUT those engines have nothing in common with a big pro mod engine when it comes to torque and managing that torque, we can agree to dissagree but your throw away comment that i concider myself an expert and that i concider you novices was frankly not what i expected from a man of your intelegence
so can we put this to bed and stop bickering and get back to the subject of traction controll and how/if it can be policed... bearing in mind that i dont beleive the powers that be will ever make it legal
with all due respect and i realy do have... what you have acheived with johns cars is outstanding and what you do with jap engines generaly is outstanding BUT those engines have nothing in common with a big pro mod engine when it comes to torque and managing that torque, we can agree to dissagree but your throw away comment that i concider myself an expert and that i concider you novices was frankly not what i expected from a man of your intelegence
so can we put this to bed and stop bickering and get back to the subject of traction controll and how/if it can be policed... bearing in mind that i dont beleive the powers that be will ever make it legal
i seriously dont believe the only way is to protest,
the rules say its illegal so it should be checked for,
otherwise there is NOTHING to stop any or all of us cheating,
A spec ecu is viable All thats needed in an ecu is basic engine mapping which is fuel, and ignition,, throttle position, ect ect with no drive shaft sensors, no reactive changes during a run possible, a built in two step and a way to map the ignition timing from the start line on a time base
obviously that will cost us all money we dont want to spend
they already have spec turbos in nhra everyone who goes very fast uses the same ecu so its more than lightly when a spec ecu is mandated it will be a variant or the one in use,
its not a case of if rather when we get those same rules and the when will be the day a turbo car goes quicker than a blower car has, and trust me it will only take 1 run from 1 team to seal our fate
the rules say its illegal so it should be checked for,
otherwise there is NOTHING to stop any or all of us cheating,
A spec ecu is viable All thats needed in an ecu is basic engine mapping which is fuel, and ignition,, throttle position, ect ect with no drive shaft sensors, no reactive changes during a run possible, a built in two step and a way to map the ignition timing from the start line on a time base
obviously that will cost us all money we dont want to spend
they already have spec turbos in nhra everyone who goes very fast uses the same ecu so its more than lightly when a spec ecu is mandated it will be a variant or the one in use,
its not a case of if rather when we get those same rules and the when will be the day a turbo car goes quicker than a blower car has, and trust me it will only take 1 run from 1 team to seal our fate
Edited by Turbobird1 on Tuesday 9th October 12:04
redvictor said:
I'm still at a bit of a loss to understand why we're still going on about this. It really does sound like someone is already using it the way it's got to be sorted out now.
ok dont sort it out ....i actuly dont give a f
k ...if you all want to wait until its done for us and the option will probably be something you dont like go ahead, The reason I think its got to be sorted is as i said there are more cars using ECU that will be joining the class ANY of who CAN cheat, and its ILLEGAL
as there is only two of us currently in the class if someone is using it (as you repeatedly say, not me) it must be you cause it sure as f
k isnt me....Edited by Turbobird1 on Tuesday 9th October 19:56
slinky said:
Careful now Graham.
It was you who started this topic, surely you must have something in mind that made you commence this line of discussion. I know for a fact that we have no TC enabled. I don't believe you have. So what leads us to this position?
dont careful me... It was you who started this topic, surely you must have something in mind that made you commence this line of discussion. I know for a fact that we have no TC enabled. I don't believe you have. So what leads us to this position?
Andy has said a couple of times now that i must think someone in the class already is using it
iv repeatedly said thats not the reason,
the reason is as iv said with the ecu becoming more popular in the class im not prepared to trust ANYONE not to cheat i want to KNOW there not cheating end of story...
over and out
well john as i started the thread it must follow that im suspecting Andy of using TC,
iv told everyone here thats not the case, make of that what you like....
what i cant seem to get across is that unless you all want a control ecu then we better find a way that will apease the tech guys and OTHER RACERS Do you not all realize MG has studied all the downloads/manuals tech specs ect ect for these ECUs and thats out of his own mouth face to face...a year ago... you think no ones noticing whats going on??? realy????
with the FIA speed record held by a turbo car you think its being ignored,
iv told everyone here thats not the case, make of that what you like....
what i cant seem to get across is that unless you all want a control ecu then we better find a way that will apease the tech guys and OTHER RACERS Do you not all realize MG has studied all the downloads/manuals tech specs ect ect for these ECUs and thats out of his own mouth face to face...a year ago... you think no ones noticing whats going on??? realy????
with the FIA speed record held by a turbo car you think its being ignored,
Edited by Turbobird1 on Tuesday 9th October 20:18
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