Discussion
Am I missing something?
I turn up for a track day session say 3/4 of an hour before the briefing, prepare my car, noise test, refresh the driver, briefing starts pretty well on time.
We all troop back to our cars, and the keen ones jump in, start up and form an eagerly queue in the pit lane, ready for the sighting laps. The rest of us scratch our heads and anything else in reach, and settle down for an extended chat session.
Because we know that the pit lane queue will sit there for at least 15 minutes before anything happens.
WHY????????? And why, when those laps are over, is there another shorter pause before we actually get going?
ok, on a full day it might not really matter too much, but on yesterday's evening session, where we were promised to be on track from 5.30 to 8.00, we actually finished the briefing at 5.20 but only got going on real laps at 6.10.....and some muppet in a Purgartory 106 promptly binned it on the second corner, so our first of several red flags. The session ended at 7.40.....so barely 90 minutes fun, and actually only about an hour of track time between red flags.
Ok rant over, but your thoughts/experiences/explanations would be welcome. Over 2 grand of my hard earned has one to TDOs in the last two years, I don't expect to feel this frustrated.
I turn up for a track day session say 3/4 of an hour before the briefing, prepare my car, noise test, refresh the driver, briefing starts pretty well on time.
We all troop back to our cars, and the keen ones jump in, start up and form an eagerly queue in the pit lane, ready for the sighting laps. The rest of us scratch our heads and anything else in reach, and settle down for an extended chat session.
Because we know that the pit lane queue will sit there for at least 15 minutes before anything happens.
WHY????????? And why, when those laps are over, is there another shorter pause before we actually get going?
ok, on a full day it might not really matter too much, but on yesterday's evening session, where we were promised to be on track from 5.30 to 8.00, we actually finished the briefing at 5.20 but only got going on real laps at 6.10.....and some muppet in a Purgartory 106 promptly binned it on the second corner, so our first of several red flags. The session ended at 7.40.....so barely 90 minutes fun, and actually only about an hour of track time between red flags.
Ok rant over, but your thoughts/experiences/explanations would be welcome. Over 2 grand of my hard earned has one to TDOs in the last two years, I don't expect to feel this frustrated.
Tribal Chestnut said:
Who was the TDO? I fancy doing one soon, so would be nice to know who to avoid.
Sorry, I don't want to name and shame, that's not fair as I am truly asking if anyone has an explanation. There may be some organisational matter that i have overlooked that holds everything up.
I also get a feeling that it is pretty universal, as i have been on many track days at several tracks, never without that irritating wait to get under way.
Some of the TDO's read these threads and are good enough to stick their heads above the parapet when explanations are required.
I agree with the other poster, it is most noticeable at evening events, but I went to three evenings last year and was luckier at those events.
The good thing about them is that you don't lose an entire working day, and you leave wanting more.
Go to any full day event and count the number of cars still circulating after 2.30/3.00. I so wish I could do either a morning, or better still an afternoon. Last time I went to Bedford, only one car was on track between 4.00 and 5.00, but he kept us entertained in his orange Exige, finishing off with a massive spin in front of the pits at over 100mph. Fortunately he had brown upholstery.
Last night it was dry and warm,
the first red flag was the guy on the second corner, cold tyres and hot right foot, all that pent up excitement from having been kept waiting,
the second an MR2 Turbo that now is just an MR2......and the rest of us had a very exciting time on his oil,
the third a Rover 25 that lost it on a tight right hander (no idea why that was red flagged, unless he lost drive, as they certainly didn't bother to sweep the track. I have lost it at the same corner and no red flag appeared)
and there was a fourth one, but I don't remember what that was for.
I guess the number of red flags accentuated the issue, but credit to the track staff, they got it going again pretty quickly.
BTW, for your info, certainly at the main race circuits, the control tower has video cameras everywhere and a huge bank of screens so that they can see the entire track and record everything on video.
So just because you aren't near a marshall's post, don't assume your misdemeanours haven't been seen, and there are now track limits rules.....
Part of my issue is that I don't know if it was the organisers or the track owners, the other part is, frankly, that it happens at every track day I attend.....though if I think about it, all those tracks are owned by the same person.......
ETA
Just phoned them to book another one. They said, off the cuff, that before an evening it could be a staff changeover, or the need to give them their statutory breaks, but he couldn't explain the same delay in the mornings.....
ETA
Just phoned them to book another one. They said, off the cuff, that before an evening it could be a staff changeover, or the need to give them their statutory breaks, but he couldn't explain the same delay in the mornings.....
Edited by QBee on Friday 11th April 15:04
Thanks for the illuminating answer - much appreciated. I clearly have never been on one of yours. But you do understand the frustrations and make an effort to get things underway. It's the guys who do it day in and day out who seem to have no sense of time until it comes to clearing the track at the end of session.
I used to be Mr Keen, generally in that half dozen at the front of the sighting lap queue, and then we would sit there for what felt like a lifetime, 40 plus cars all waiting for something to happen.
Nowadays I am not Mr Keen. On Thursday evening, Briefing finished 5.20. The first group of 25 got out there into the pitlane PDQ, to be held for nearly 15 minutes. Having been told that there would be two sighting groups I let the first group go and was in the middle of the second one, on the other side of the track.....only then to see 8 stragglers have to go out as a third group. But to be fair that only took about ten minutes. Checking the track was clear then took ages (despite the circuit being 100% covered by CCTV) and as a result when we finally went OPL at 6.10, a frustrated numpty at the front of the first batch on track had a spin at the second corner, causing a red flag.
My next track day is Bedford, 6th May, full day. I will be logging precise timings and any reasons I spot, and will report my findings to the TDOs, who are MSV for that one. Not having a go, just keen to keep track days a fun experience.
I used to be Mr Keen, generally in that half dozen at the front of the sighting lap queue, and then we would sit there for what felt like a lifetime, 40 plus cars all waiting for something to happen.
Nowadays I am not Mr Keen. On Thursday evening, Briefing finished 5.20. The first group of 25 got out there into the pitlane PDQ, to be held for nearly 15 minutes. Having been told that there would be two sighting groups I let the first group go and was in the middle of the second one, on the other side of the track.....only then to see 8 stragglers have to go out as a third group. But to be fair that only took about ten minutes. Checking the track was clear then took ages (despite the circuit being 100% covered by CCTV) and as a result when we finally went OPL at 6.10, a frustrated numpty at the front of the first batch on track had a spin at the second corner, causing a red flag.
My next track day is Bedford, 6th May, full day. I will be logging precise timings and any reasons I spot, and will report my findings to the TDOs, who are MSV for that one. Not having a go, just keen to keep track days a fun experience.
Jerry Can said:
I was at an evening track day on Thursday but you must have been at a different circuit as the one i was at went very smoothly. But there again the organiser is pretty laid back and on occasions during the evening it resembled more of a test session than a track day. But that could have been down to the number of competition cars there.
There are however certain things that annoy me about TDO's - even though in most instances it will be something to do with insurance implications as to why they do them.
Firstly - the briefing. I know the TDO may be taking his 10000th briefing but you'd think they know the words off by heart. And also give the briefing a bit of 'energy' When, I wonder will the TDO industry create a video to be run to say a 10 min length that covers all the points - eg flags, overtaking rules etc etc. If this was done, you could then quite legitimately run the video every 30 mins to allow the stragglers to complete the briefing. This would have many advantages:
1) fewer people at a time in the briefing, therefore a smaller room could be used and the audience would be more able to hear and ask questions
2) having a briefing every 30 mins would mean thatpunters track day enthusiasts could choose a later start time as some may have a distance to travel. Everybody who has ever done a track day knows that you are not going to go on track at 9am and drive round and round until 5pm. So if you started later you could have less chit chat and still get the same driving time.
3) Staggered starts would probably mean fewer early doors spins or session stoppages as there would be fewer cars on track, therefore fewer chances of cars dropping oil etc.
4) Having multiple (video) briefings means that sign on is less of a scrum, makes the whole event more relaxed which probably would have a positive effect on the whole psychology of the day.
Also I think the industry is going to have to mandate a standard briefing video as they currently vary a great deal in terms of content, delivery and things missed out etc.
So come on TDO's modernise your business and provide a more engaging means of explaining the safety and also the routine of the day.
Spot on. Agree 100%. That would make real sense.There are however certain things that annoy me about TDO's - even though in most instances it will be something to do with insurance implications as to why they do them.
Firstly - the briefing. I know the TDO may be taking his 10000th briefing but you'd think they know the words off by heart. And also give the briefing a bit of 'energy' When, I wonder will the TDO industry create a video to be run to say a 10 min length that covers all the points - eg flags, overtaking rules etc etc. If this was done, you could then quite legitimately run the video every 30 mins to allow the stragglers to complete the briefing. This would have many advantages:
1) fewer people at a time in the briefing, therefore a smaller room could be used and the audience would be more able to hear and ask questions
2) having a briefing every 30 mins would mean that
3) Staggered starts would probably mean fewer early doors spins or session stoppages as there would be fewer cars on track, therefore fewer chances of cars dropping oil etc.
4) Having multiple (video) briefings means that sign on is less of a scrum, makes the whole event more relaxed which probably would have a positive effect on the whole psychology of the day.
Also I think the industry is going to have to mandate a standard briefing video as they currently vary a great deal in terms of content, delivery and things missed out etc.
So come on TDO's modernise your business and provide a more engaging means of explaining the safety and also the routine of the day.
I find I, like many, have had enough track time by 3.15. But getting up at 5am to get myself out of the house and ready to drive the 100 miles to Snetterton or Bedford, or even further to Brands, so as to be at whatever track by 0730 takes some of the fun out of the day. I then have to change all four wheels, adjust the dampers to track settings and check all levels, and get noise tested, all before the 0800 briefing.
I would much rather clock in at 1000, and run up to 4.30 instead. It's the sighting laps that are then the issue, but excuse me, I tend to go to the same three tracks and always take my first two laps out of the pits with a modicum of common sense to test the track and warm up the car, driver and tyres. How about a "been there, done that" badge for seasoned campaigners that would make this work, by exempting us from sighting laps if we want to make a later start. It's not as if the TDOs don't have computer records.
My other suggestion to TDOs is to allow more half day bookings. You'd make a lot more money that way. I would happily pay 2/3rds of the full day fee for a half day. Last time at Bedford I did a full day and covered a full grand prix distance. After the 5am start and 100 mile drive to get there, I actually had to stop three times on the way home to wake myself up. A later start, or a half day, would have suited me much better.
Thanks Steve, interesting comments.
No, I won't turn up at 10.00. Old fashioned manners, I guess.
But I take on board what you say about half days.
By the way, previous poster, my evening session had no race prepped cars (other than the Mini whose transport rudely blocked the pit fire lane for their own convenience unloading, and I never saw the car on track). So I wasn't on the same one as you.
No, I won't turn up at 10.00. Old fashioned manners, I guess.
But I take on board what you say about half days.
By the way, previous poster, my evening session had no race prepped cars (other than the Mini whose transport rudely blocked the pit fire lane for their own convenience unloading, and I never saw the car on track). So I wasn't on the same one as you.
I agree with you. The rest of each briefing is pretty well covered, but the overtaking rules are getting vaguer and vaguer, and there will be a messy accident before long.
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners). Luckily for the TDO, only 5% of the punters were new to the track, and all had done a TD before.......which actually rendered the briefing almost pointless. We all knew how to behave, luckily, and showed it on track.
Flags and overtaking are the main things that matter on track. You would like to think the TDO could get those right. I was, and still am, disappointed. I might just sit at the front and record the next one.
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners). Luckily for the TDO, only 5% of the punters were new to the track, and all had done a TD before.......which actually rendered the briefing almost pointless. We all knew how to behave, luckily, and showed it on track.
Flags and overtaking are the main things that matter on track. You would like to think the TDO could get those right. I was, and still am, disappointed. I might just sit at the front and record the next one.
Steve H said:
Yep, got to love Cadwell
Fantastic circuit that tends to get overlooked,
Far from a first timer, but it is my nearest (if you ignore Donington) circuit and probably my favourite apart from Snetterton, which has those lovely warm pit garages for when outdoor conditions are a bit dodgy. The Cadwell corners are wonderful, as they give you so much back when you are brave enough to go into them that bit faster (Coppice particularly springs to mind). As a circuit it really focusses the mind on what matters in a track day car - handling and brakes, not top speed.Fantastic circuit that tends to get overlooked,
I will book as soon as I can be sure I will be available. Thanks.
On a different note, I just copied this from a feature on a luxury track day at Spa currently on PH - sums up the average first 90 minutes of a UK track day perfectly for me. I am sure you can improve on it!! I just wish the other TDOs would
"You'll know the drill. Sparrow's fart start, even with the luxury of a nearby Travelodge. The all-too familiar briefing in a draughty portacabin cradling grey, tasteless tea in a polystyrene cup and the aftertaste of a greasy, overpriced bacon roll. Skinned knuckles in the car park as you change your wheels over, eying up the inevitable Herberts in a caged eBay special you just know are going to be pulling that desperate dive into the braking zone before spinning off in front of you. Surely there has to be a better way?"
teabagger said:
QBee said:
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners).
Would you also like a text confirmation of permission to overtake?I did a track day last year in the company of a Caterham with no mirrors, and driven at 2/3 of everyone else's speed. He also wandered all over the track without warning. He was an utter nightmare and worst still, the MSV staff weren't interested when I drew it to their attention.
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