Shared trackday cars - Logistics?

[C70R]

So, I'm approaching this as a complete novice, and would be grateful of the benefit of PH's collective experience. Thanks in advance!

Two close friends and I (three in total) are planning to buy a car to get out on track together. For the time-being, its primary goal is being a bit of a collective project (excuse to hang out and get mucky) and a bit of light-hearted weekend fun. We've known each other long enough and the value is sufficiently low that there will not be any major issues with the financial or ownership side of things (e.g. "you owe me £50 for that XXX"). It will simply be a case of buying a car, gutting the interior, servicing and doing some light upgrades (brakes, tyres), then driving the pants off it.
If it breaks, we replace it. If we really love it, we buy a better car next year.

What is a bit of a leap into the unknown is how the actual process of getting on track works between three people. In an ideal world, we'd all have our own cars to track - in practice, none of us individually has the time/energy/space to make it happen.
Are TDOs happy for three of us to share a car during a day? Does this work out practically? Are some TDOs more cost-effective or flexible in this regard? Are there enough tracks/airfields in range of Central London to make it worth our while? Are passenger rides normally permitted?

Are there any other learnings from those who have done the sharing thing already that might be worth knowing?

[C70R]

james_gt3rs said:

With 3 people, either the car will take a beating due to no breaks for it, or you'll all get less track time if you let the brakes etc cool.

Thanks for the input. To be honest, this isn't an exercise in maximising track time. It's more about getting out together and having a bit of a cheap giggle. If we each get an hour on track in the course of a day, I'd say that was money well spent.

[C70R]

daniel-5zjw7 said:

Yes as above you'll just have to pay for each driver.. however somewhere in the back of my head I'm thinking some TDO's only accept max two drivers per car? May be wrong on this.

Otherwise personally I think the idea is workable, and on a full day all three of you would have enough track time to enjoy it, however it would be very hard on the car, as apart from at lunchtimes I expect with three people you'd pretty much be circulating all day. So choosing a reliable car and prepping it well/looking after it on the day would be important

I think the biggest issue I can see putting myself in your position is just how difficult it can be to agree dates between all three of you, especially given that many trackdays through the summer are on weekdays requiring days off work etc. You'd all need to be equally committed to it otherwise I can imagine life/other interests/holidays/reluctance to eat in to annual leave etc getting in the way when it actually comes down to it.

Cheers for the reply. The maximum drivers thing had concerned me too. I can't recall where I read it, but it sticks in my mind.

Time-wise, we'd probably only be getting out 8-10 times a year in it, as we've all got hectic jobs and families. We wouldn't necessarily need to be picky about which track either, as it's just a case of going out and having fun.

[C70R]

sjg said:

Do you want to remain friends with these people? If so, split the rental of a BaT Caterham with them a few times a year instead.

If none of you have "time/energy/space" for your own cars, who's going to take it home between days? Who's going to maintain it, either DIY, or taking it off to someone else to do the work? If someone crashes it, do you split the damage bill? If someone overrevs it and blows up an engine, do you split that too? If someone gets busy and can only make half the days, are they covering their third of everything?

If you must - think through all the ways this could wrong, and agree up front how you'll deal with them.

Haha. Thanks for the reality check, but it's absolutely fine. I did try to pre-empt this with my first post, but I assumed someone would say it. We've been friends through far more stressful and difficult things than sharing a car that gets used a few times a year!

The point of entry cost (£500 each) is deliberately low, and shared, such that we can walk away without being out of pocket too badly (no more than a nice meal) the event that it all goes badly wrong.

Appreciate the concern, but it's really not worth worrying about.

[C70R]

sjg said:

So you'd walk away from your £500 share of the car with no hard feelings if your mate drove like an idiot and crashed it before you even had a go? Or you'd put in another £500 for a new car and try again?

Absolutely. The latter, without hesitation or reservation.

We're talking about £500 for a ready-to-drive car, plus ongoing costs. I appreciate your 'concern', but you're making a mountain out of a molehill and dragging this thread away from the points I wanted some input on.

Thanks.

[C70R]

Christ on a bike. Why does PH love such a downer? Why do people who have no experience of it think I want their opinion on why it will be a disaster?

For those who bothered to read the first post, the decision is made - that's not up for debate, and I'm not looking for input there.
We three have enough going on in our lives that we aren't going to fall out over something as trivial as a cheap car and a few hundred quid.

If anyone is thinking of contributing, can you please please try to answer what I've asked in my first post.
How does it work with TDOs? Is it possible? Are all TDOs willing to let 3 drivers go? Are any circuits/TDOs more amenable than others?

C70R said:

We've known each other long enough and the value is sufficiently low that there will not be any major issues with the financial or ownership side of things
...
What is a bit of a leap into the unknown is how the actual process of getting on track works between three people.

and here comes the doom...

sjg said:

Do you want to remain friends with these people? If so, split the rental of a BaT Caterham with them a few times a year instead.

gbk said:

This is really good advice.

sjg said:

So you'd walk away from your £500 share of the car with no hard feelings if your mate drove like an idiot and crashed it before you even had a go? Or you'd put in another £500 for a new car and try again?

Trabi601 said:

I have a single word of advice for you.

Don't.

TooMany2cvs said:

Indeed. Sounds like a great way to lose two good friends.

MG CHRIS said:

I wouldn't tbh

[C70R]

JoeMarano said:

Wow things got put into perspective when you said a nice meal cost £500!

The last nice meal I had probably cost me £50!

Everything is relative, and it's not intended as a point of snobbery. I had a curry at Tayyabs last night than cost ~£50 with a nice bottle of BYO wine - it was absolutely great, as usual.

[C70R]

Trabi601 said:

I'm confused.

You're happy to splurge 500 quid on a 'nice meal', yet won't spend 500 quid on your own track car?

There's one other point to note - you'll be outcasts in the paddock - 3 blokes sharing a 500 quid snotter is always a big red warning flag for crap on-track etiquette.

Thanks. No, really.

Thanks for highlighting yourself as an ahole. Please don't post on this thread again, as you clearly have nothing of use to contribute.

[C70R]

rallycross said:

We did this with a couple of mates and over 3 or 4 years we did loads of track days and it worked out as a cheap way to do it (with me having good motor trade contacts that kept the costs down for work done on the car over the period). We had 3 cars over that time, upgraded to a better car each time I sold the current one. The car was registered to me and insured by me, the others could drive on the road using their DOC.

We put in £500 each to get going, maybe would need a bit more @ today's prices things like road tax going up.

Buy something thats cheap to run ideally thats already been prepared for track use and only spend money on things that are important like brakes, tyres, safety and don't ruin the car by stripping everything out of it (this wont make the slightest difference for some basic track fun and also kills the re-sale value).

Avoid track days with sessions as this did not work out well when we were sharing the driving but open session days were fine even with 3 of us driving never felt like we did'nt we enough time on a full day.

We were all London based and mainly used Motorsport Events.com, plus Bedford, Brands, Goodwood and Lydden but also did a few at Cadwell (worth the trip and stay over) Donnington, Rockingham, Castle Combe.

Thank you so much. Excellent advice and input.

[C70R]

JoeMarano said:

I met a couple of guys at Snetterton sharing a car and they were spot on to be honest.

Good to know, cheers. Not sure why there should be stigma attached to people sharing a car. I'd say that half the appeal for me would be giving/taking passenger laps with my best mates - surely it's an experience that's better shared (hints, tips, lines etc.), right?

[C70R]

MG CHRIS said:

We are giving you advice its what happens on a forum some of it negative some it positive if you had an open mind you would take some of the negatives on board and try and make it so it works rather than call us all tts etc etc.

In my OP I specifically asked for information about the TDO logistics, and stated that the other aspects (ownership, financial) wouldn't be an issue.
The majority of replies were doom-mongering from people who've never shared a track car. Ironically, the experiences of those who have actually done it appear to be positive.

If you can't see why that's annoying, you clearly have more patience than me.

[C70R]

silverthorn2151 said:

3 of us shared a Radical for years and it was brilliant. You will work out the details about running costs in your own way.

We had such a laugh along the way and met great people. No probs from TDOs at all. The SR3 was self limiting in terms of track time. 3 chubbymiddle aged guys get knackered quickly and it broke down a lot.

Go for it, I totally get what you are trying to do and ignore the naysayers on here.

Thank you for the insight. Hugely relevant; hugely appreciated.

We're dipping a cautious toe in the water at this stage, as we originally got a bit carried away over a few drinks one evening. We'd originally started down the road of looking at Atoms and Caterfields, but fit/size (two of us are pretty tall) was looking to be a limiting factor.

Thankfully (given that one of us has a child on the way and another is starting a new business), we've scaled back our ambition to see whether a modified hot hatchback is enough to generate the necessary spark.

[C70R]

james_gt3rs said:

I remember reading on here one of the TDOs saying that 3 people sharing 1 car statistically is the one most likely to crash. In my personal experience, most cars in the barriers are the cheap cars trailered to the circuit..

That increased risk would seem reasonably intuitive to me, to be honest. Hence the increase cost to mitigate for the risk.

You effectively have a car that probably spends more time on track than the average solo-piloted car; yet the drivers each spend less time, and don't know/learn the track so well.

[C70R]

Camoradi said:

Hi C70R,

I've shared my car with friends or relatives on track days. Two drivers works about right, three is doable but I would suggest having the car on track 50% of the time is about the max in order to let it cool down etc, and in my case this is with a light car which is easy on brakes and tyres. Also open pit lanes days work best as you don't feel obliged to do a full 15 or 20 minute session and can swap driver more often.

Most organisers will charge a nominal fee EG £20 for additional drivers/passenger. Not sure about limits on numbers but I have done 3 sharing a car several years back.

re potential for damage, my thinking is that the other driver is no more likely to crash than I am, and I am old enough to know it is my risk so I can't complain if it does get damaged. I sometimes pay for track day insurance but have yet to test how easy it is to claim.

Hope it goes well for you

Thanks kindly. All sounds perfectly sensible.

[C70R]

E-bmw said:

For my 2p I would say (as you already have kind of covered) do it as cheap as you can (sub £1k car, £200 suspension lowering kit, new discs/good pads (plus spares) racing brake fluid, give it a good service, take EVERYTHING you can out of it & enjoy.

Lay some ground rules about costs (eg £400 each covers the (as above) prepared car, split the cost of the day between the 2 or 3 able to attend, the rest will fall into place between like-minded-adults.

This is, almost verbatim, our plan. Thank you for the reassurance.

I really feel sorry for the naysayers, thinking that such small amounts of money and trivial problems would be enough to destroy friendships.

[C70R]

Trabi601 said:

...scenario...
So you've spent over 500 quid and not yet driven it.

You may write that off, but I'm not sure anyone could be that tolerant.

If you bin it, others may not be so happy.

Then it gets very messy. Broken friendships, threats of legal action etc.

So, we can sum your strongly-held (in spite of no actual experience) view up in two points:
1. You can't afford to write-off £500 on having a bit of fun, so therefore nobody else can.
2. You don't have friends who are close enough that crashing a cheap car wouldn't result in legal action, so nobody else does.

Your unfounded doom-mongering is unnecessary and misplaced, and doesn't reflect the reality of the people who have posted here with actual experience.

Please take your post-whoring to another thread.

[C70R]

Toltec said:

We ended up getting a TVR, then another with a roll bar, upgraded suspension and a bigger engine as it was more cost effective than upgrading the first one. Sold the first car for more than we paid for it and the second for a grand less than we paid after five years. It did 8mpg on track, but worth every penny just for the noise of that V8 at full chat.

Get something to give it a try, if it works for you all and you get the bug you can always swap for something else. Our rule was simple, don't spend more on a car than you are willing to write off. As cheaper alternative to a Caterham have a look at the Sylva or Raw Striker, when looked after most kits will also hold their value.

This is indeed the plan. A few hundred pounds on something disposable for a year or so (probably until the MOT becomes expensive or we get bored), then re-evaluate what we want out of it.

The kit car idea was shelved due to size issues (two of us are >6ft3), rather than cost. Although I still think we would probably limit ourselves to around £3-4k a head in the long-term, as that's approaching the level where it starts to get painful to lose. After all, there's no sense getting carried away with something that will only see use a few weekends a year.

[C70R]

Toltec said:

HustleRussell said:

I'd buy a car you're going to be willing to invest in from the off. The parts you buy for it and the work you do on it cannot be carried forward to the next car (Unless it was the same make & model which'd be pretty pointless).

I would make that the second car, the first car is to find out if the idea works for the group. Make a point of not spending on upgrades other than better pads and tyres.

100% agree with that.

As mentioned, it would be easy to get carried away and spend £10k on something we didn't need after a few beers. Common sense prevails, and any money we 'lose' on the first car will be seen as an investment in 'proof of concept'.

[C70R]

Camoradi said:

If it is going to be used on track only, a used race car could save you a lot of money. My brother in law recently picked up a Mk2 MR2 which was race ready for the 750 motor club series , road legal with 11 months MOT, for £1750. I was quite amazed at how much he got for the money.

That's an excellent shout. Where does one look for such unbelievable bargains?

[C70R]

brman said:

Trabi601 said:

C70R said:

So, we can sum your strongly-held (in spite of no actual experience) view up in two points:
1. You can't afford to write-off £500 on having a bit of fun, so therefore nobody else can.
2. You don't have friends who are close enough that crashing a cheap car wouldn't result in legal action, so nobody else does.

Your unfounded doom-mongering is unnecessary and misplaced, and doesn't reflect the reality of the people who have posted here with actual experience.

Please take your post-whoring to another thread.

Experience of lots of track days and the kind of people who are first into the barriers.

Crack on, but if your attitude to track etiquette is anything like your attitude on this thread, I hope to never share a track with you.

really? I am with the OP on this one. I have driven friends cars on trackdays. Hell, I have driven a complete strangers car on a trackday. Others have driven my car.
It is about trust and responsibility. If you bend it, you mend it. If your mate bends it, he mends it. If he doesn't then falling out with him is not a problem as he is not the sort of friend you want.
Yes, your mate could wreck it on the first outing and you have wasted the day, but st happens, you will get over it. And if you can't afford to damage your car then you should leave it at home in the garage.

I also see no problem at all with being on track with a shared car. If it gets driven badly then it should be black flagged. If it isn't, then you need to use another trackday organiser.

It is really a personal attitude to risk but I can see how the OP might get a bit fed up with being told he shouldn't do it, just because others see a theoretical risk. Especially as he has made it clear he accepts that risk.

It will fall on apparent deaf ears, I'm sure. After all, you can't be sincere about everything when you're trying to maintain such a high posting rate.
The change of tack is hilarious - such obvious attention whoring. He hasn't been able to dissuade me with irrelevant, baseless concerns; so he switches to telling me how I'll be obviously be a liability on track.

Thanks for sharing your experience. It appears that some people are a little too precious about a few hundred pounds between good friends to take advantage of something that could be fantastic fun!