Track and occasional road car options - £5k

[C70R]

With a car circumstance change on the horizon and the idea of taking the 206 GTi shared sprinting/hillclimbing next year, I might be in a position where I won't need to do many miles in my road car (currently a mix of 330ci Sport and CLK430 cab). This led me to wonder whether I could bin off the idea that I needed a comfortable automatic to drive on the road, and replace it with something a bit more track-ready.

This is more a case of idle musing at the moment, but mustering £5k-or-so shouldn't be a problem. The goal would be to have something that would still work to 'pop to the shops' or drive to the track (zero chance of a trailer), but would also be an absolute hoot when I got there. Kind of a halfway house fast-road/track tool, in a way that my stripped, slammed, 100db Peugeot could never be.

Thoughts so far have centred on:

• S2000 - No idea that these were in budget until today, but very exciting. Wouldn't leave much for modding, which would mean tracking a largely standard car.
• Supercharged mk2 1.8 MX5 - Love the way they drive, but always hated the lack of grunt. Budget gets a well-modded example with 200bhp+.
• MR2 mk3 2ZZ - Bit of an outsider, as I've not got the hugest knowledge of the conversion. Budget seems on point, and who can argue with 200bhp @ 8krpm?
• MR2 mk2 Turbo - Easily faster in a straight line than the others, but is the chassis a match? Does the budget get me something with decent work done?
• E36 328 - If (BIG IF) it's really possible to get this down to 1200kg, that puts it in the ballpark of the S2000. Tried and tested, but does it compare?
• Impreza - Early ones are light enough when stripped, and 250bhp would make them plenty of fun. Are they reliable enough? Are they as much fun as the others?

Does anyone have any experience of running any of these as road/track cars (not daily drives!)? Is there anything I've missed at the budget?

[C70R]

Thanks all.

I think the VX220 would be a bit too cost-marginal to be viable, to be honest. There are a few S2000s on AT at the moment in budget, and I'd expect this to increase as the year progresses.

I was under the impression that the mk2.5 MX5 was the worst culprit, rather than the mk2 (which it appeared was on par with the mk1).
Hadn't considered a mk3 at all, as I'd ideally want something a little nippier in a straight line (closer to 200bhp/ton).

The 350Z is definitely off the cards. Far too heavy (as a 2-seater) to be useful on track, for me.

[C70R]

git-r said:

I just went through the same idea... Started at 5k, looking for a great track ready car that's ok on road... Ended up going over budget but got the new shape Megane. Never thought I'd like a fwd but really enjoying it!

If you can bear having FWD a megane R26 seems a good bet. In budget for a good one, good brakes, reliable etc..

If you're set on rwd what about an R33 Skyline GTS-T ? RWD, not too heavy, incredibly strong engine and running gear.. Very cheap and easy to get track ready.

Love the idea of a Skyline, but feel like £5k isn't going to get me much bang for my buck. However, they are MUCH lighter than I thought (Carfolio suggests 1.35T, which is lighter than an E36).

FWD has its place for sure, but my 206 GTi is FWD and I couldn't bear having two front-hack track toys.

Edited by C70R on Thursday 18th August 16:32

[C70R]

iguana said:

C70R said:

• E36 328 - If (BIG IF) it's really possible to get this down to 1200kg, that puts it in the ballpark of the S2000. Tried and tested, but

It's not a big IF at all, sub 1000kg is pos easy, was with a 1030kg caged e36 m3 today, proper cage, proper car & m3 engine & m3 bits are heavier than a 2.8 engine & bits.

Mx5 is far more tactile.

S2000 always disappointed me.

Really? Sub-1000kg is 400kg lighter than standard!
If it's that easy to achieve within the £5k budget, without things like perspex windows and composite body panels, that might be a winner.

[C70R]

Camoradi said:

C70R said:

• MR2 mk2 Turbo - Easily faster in a straight line than the others, but is the chassis a match? Does the budget get me something with decent work done?

I passengered for a few laps in one of these at the weekend and I would say if it is fun you are after then it's a good shout. In tight corners the back end slides around very nicely, but in a controllable way. Very little roll or chassis flex I could detect. Whether it hits the "practical" mark I'm not sure.

You see, that's the thing I struggle with a bit. I like torque, and have always traditionally owned cars with lovely, smooth torquey delivery. My current 330ci also likes to be revved up towards the redline, which means I get (some of) the best of both worlds.

I could definitely see the enjoyment in wringing the neck of something rev-happy on track, but I wonder whether something with a slightly less peaky delivery might flatter my novice skills.

The mk2 MR2 came in for a lot of casual criticism of its chassis, with talk of unprompted snapping and hedge-finding. This seemed to coincide with the car falling into 'council' budget and courting a somewhat undesirable image, which have definitely combined to suppress values.

I don't want to feel like I'm going too far down this road, but it would seem reasonable to get it down to 1100kg without making it unusable, and up to 280bhp without making it unreliable. All of which, combined with a few choice chassis mods (rubber, brakes, coilovers) surely makes a decent proposition.

Is there a reason they aren't more common among the trackday crowd? Do they suffer from oil starvation with the standard sump/pickup arrangement? Are the too fragile to deal with repeated thrashing? Do they struggle with temperature management?

[C70R]

CABC said:

when spending 5k, first rule is buy an already prepped car. It's very rare that you won't need to spend more but you'll get a lot that's been heavily depreciated.

Couldn't agree more, particularly in the instance of the options with conversions/adaptations etc.

[C70R]

Sohlman said:

Surely with this budget and brief you have to consider a Porsche Boxster.

They can be picked up cheaply although you want one that has been well looked after.

They can handle track work out of the box very well as have good brakes. Sublime handling. Very direct and feel some steering and are surprisingly practical.

I ran one for two years and without doubt the best car I have ever had.

The reviews for them by everybody is 5 star for a reason.

Online will also give you horror stories about IMS bearing failures and bore score. While the problems do exists they have probable already suffered this by now if they where going to and forums make them out worse then they are.

Ok so maintenance on one of these is going to be higher., but with a Boxster S you had 260bhp and around 1250-300kg's. While not feather weight they pack a descent sized punch.

If you want to slide around they are not the right car, but for precision driving and learning how to alter a car's line by microscopic adjustments to the balance using your right foot they take some beating.

Boxster did absolutely appear on my radar, but I discounted it for a number of reasons:

• Significantly bigger bork factor than most of the other cars
• Not as good on track as standard as the others (for the £5k budget)
• Much more of a road car than the others (I don't need a daily - I only really do the occasional weekend drive)

I've spent a bit of time in a 3.2S, and absolutely loved it. Great engine note, lovely controls, cracking proposition for fun daily driving. But it would need a fair bit of work (outside of the budget) to turn it into something as fun on track as a £5k MX5, and I'm not even convinced it would be anywhere near as quick.

[C70R]

If we're talking about the MR2 Turbo, how do they compare to the later shape Nissan 200SX? Seems like a similar proposition - both 2L 16v turbo, both capable of ~300bhp, both can be lightened to 1100kg without too much fuss.
The upside to the 200sx would be that I could get a much newer (4-5yrs) car than the MR2, and it wouldn't be an import (thinking about London insurance). Obviously I'd lose out on the mid-engined layout of the MR2, but would it really matter?

Thoughts?

[C70R]

arch stant0n said:

C70R said:

If we're talking about the MR2 Turbo, how do they compare to the later shape Nissan 200SX?

Whereabouts in London are you C70R? You're welcome to come have a look at my 200sx (I'm in Docklands), absolutely great cars. I can't compare to an MR2, but with some suspension and brake upgrades they're great fun for very little money and can be made significantly quicker with a bit more. Surprisingly practical too given the back seat and boot.

Thanks for that. I'm in Dulwich, so not a million miles away.

Carfolio (not that I'm holding it up as gospel) suggests that the 200sx actually has a BETTER F/R weight distribution than the MR2 Turbo (53% vs 42% front), which might go some way to explain why the Toyota has caught so many out.
Having said that, I'd hope that the having the engine over the rear of the MR2 would help with traction in slower corners.

Edited by C70R on Friday 19th August 17:23

[C70R]

james_gt3rs said:

I reckon you'd need a seriously modded MX5 to keep up with a Boxster... they are faster than people give them credit for.

Do you think so? I drove a 3.4 around Thruxton a couple of years ago, and while it had a decent lick of pace it felt soft and heavy compared to 'proper' track cars.

[C70R]

To be honest, a Boxster isn't really what I'm after. I don't need a daily, I don't need a civilised drive or a commuter tool.
I want something that's a bit more raw, lightweight and pointy than a Boxster. And, to be frank, the potential for expensive failure on the Boxster puts me off alone.

[C70R]

git-r said:

Sorry if it's already been covered but rx8 too... I drove one on track not long after they came out and it handled and stopped much better than the skyline gtr I had at the time. You could get a mint low mileage newish one for about 3 k then keep 2k in reserve in case it needs a rebuild.

To be honest, while I'm a fan of the RX8 I can't imagine it would be competitive with any of the ones in my original list. If was happy with a slower car, I'd be taking a standard MR2 or MX5 first.

[C70R]

E-bmw said:

CABC said:

E-bmw said:

My e36 328 coupe was weighed just last week at my local weighbridge, 1370kg with me (102 kg clothed) and a full tank of fuel, also left both helmets on their mount, and that isn't FULLY stripped & has a cage.

so around 1200 'empty'.
what i'd have guessed and still a bit heavy for my liking. I'd rather power up a light car than try to fix a heavy car. Iguana should know his stuff, be interested how that 1000kg M3 came about.

I wouldn't say it is not possible, but to me it seems unlikely/extreme.

That's kind of where I was, to be honest. If a part-stripped car is almost 1.4T, I don't see how it's possible to get it under the ton without serious modification, beyond my scope and budget.

[C70R]

iguana said:

E-bmw said:

I wouldn't say it is not possible, but to me it seems unlikely/extreme.

Depends on how you class extreme really, but the 1030kg car was parked 20metres from yours at cadwell the other wk, white saloon ex khumo car.

Will need this-


http://www.convertunits.com/from/lbs/to/kg


But a few on here as examples

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1...

With this one-

http://www.driversmeeting.com/pcarroll/albums/10

Sub 998kg, fairly extensive strip, but still steel wings, steel doors (gutted), and all the rest of the body is steel, stock bumper covers, bumper shocks, aluminum bumpers (trimmed)

Some of that work is fantastic, but you and I have very different definitions of "easy"!

[C70R]

It must be said, the 2ZZ-converted MR2 is winning me over at the moment. It seems to make a good case for itself, to be honest.
Low weight (sub-1t standard), revvy engine swap (8.5krpm), compliant chassis, and a reliable/robust overall package.
In effect, it's the S2 111R Elise drivetrain in a car that weighs ~100kg more (but has aircon etc.).

Heck, they can even be made to look reasonably mean without too much effort...


Now, to drive a converted one.

[C70R]

C70R said:

Thoughts so far have centred on:

• S2000 - No idea that these were in budget until today, but very exciting. Wouldn't leave much for modding, which would mean tracking a largely standard car.

* Supercharged mk2 1.8 MX5 - Love the way they drive, but always hated the lack of grunt. Budget gets a well-modded example with 200bhp+.

• MR2 mk3 2ZZ - Bit of an outsider, as I've not got the hugest knowledge of the conversion. Budget seems on point, and who can argue with 200bhp @ 8krpm?

* MR2 mk2 Turbo - Easily faster in a straight line than the others, but is the chassis a match? Does the budget get me something with decent work done?
* E36 328 - If (BIG IF) it's really possible to get this down to 1200kg, that puts it in the ballpark of the S2000. Tried and tested, but does it compare?
* Impreza - Early ones are light enough when stripped, and 250bhp would make them plenty of fun. Are they reliable enough? Are they as much fun as the others?

So, after some thinking, I've rationalised the original list down a little.

I'm also going to throw a 2.7 Boxster into the mix. On-paper figures are very similar to the S2000, and the MR setup makes it feel like a lower-priced, softer Elise. Budget doesn't get me much choice in a 3.2, so the 2.7 would be a compromise. But I wonder whether it lends itself well to the harness/bucket treatment...

Time to get out and drive some.

Edited by C70R on Sunday 11th September 12:23

[C70R]

Mandalore said:

Are you intending to take 'rear passengers' to the shops in their dual purpose car, because if you don't need 4 doors and a rear seat, then why bother with the extra weight. Get a 2 seater to start with.

Absolutely never.
My car will be used for occasional short trips when the OH's (more sensible) car is not available, and for the infrequent schlep to somewhere like Le Mans or the Ring.

[C70R]

Furyblade_Lee said:

Boxster? Trackday? Cheap??? Ha ha ha ha ha

This did bother me initially, to be honest. However, after a bit of research I don't see how many of the major consumables of the 2.7 (brakes, tyres and service parts) would be significantly higher than that of something like an S2000.
I'd consider myself pretty unlucky to get hit by something like Porsche-specific like IMS failure (I don't buy into the internet doom-mongering), and most cars at this level have potential to break if used properly.

[C70R]

egor110 said:

If you go to track days the majority of the 'cheaper' cars (and i don't say that as a piss take ) are mx5's and clio's.

Because they are affordable to run and reliable.

Absolutely. However, I've already got a "cheaper" track car. I want something I can use a few times a year on track (not dedicated) if I decide to sprint/hillclimb my track car next year, and won't be a massive pain to use on the road.

It doesn't need to be stripped to the nth degree or polybushed to death - but it needs to be fun and capable on track. If I could fit comfortably and had the spare cash, I'd be buying an Elise. As it is, I'm trying to recreate the Elise experience for £5-6k.

[C70R]

Pulse said:

Mk3 MR2, without a doubt. Spend some money on a proper geo, and you'll be away!

Start off with a standard one, and then if the engine blows up, take that as an opportunity to change to 2ZZ. Rogue Motorsport do conversions all the time, and would be a good starting point.

I can absolutely see the appeal, believe me. To be honest, I know I wouldn't get a huge amount of pleasure out of the bog-stock performance, so it would need to be a 2ZZ to be on-par with the S2000 or the Boxster. The only slight challenge is finding someone to take me out in a 2ZZ...