Nurburgring & Insurance
Discussion
Hi guys,
I've been to the Nordschleife a few times on public days but it's getting a bit scary. I don't mind wrecking a £1000 car but the 3rd party claims do worry me now I'm a bit more growed up and responsible :-)
I've been checking the insurance route and I've seen a few for and against arguments regarding claims, some recovered costs where others were left holding the baby. So I thought I'd check it out with my insurers and called them up. They suggested that I should talk to my broker as they were experts in this so I sent them an email with the following text:
"I am taking time out to visit Europe in September. Can you confirm that I will be covered for driving in France, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium & Germany for a period of 10 days beginning September 28th. Can you also detail any restrictions on driving in those countries such as areas or countries that are excluded from the policy or that may have restrictions such as German unlimited speed roads?"
Their written response was:
".....automatically provides 31 days foreign use in any insurance year within EU coiuntries - There are no specific restrictions. You must take your certificate of motor...." yadda yadda yadda.
They refered me to sections in the policy that detail sections on customs, documents etc. all of which do not mention any restrictions. So, I dug some more.
I read through the entire policy and the only thing that came remotely close was the exclusion for:
Rally
Competition
Motor Trial
On a racetrack
On a circuit; or (bad use of semi-colon there)
On a prepared course
Now, the Nurburgring GmBH go to great pains to explain that the Nordschleife is neither a racetrack nor a circuit but is it a prepared course? So with the owners saying it's not a circuit and the Herman rozzers and go'ment agreeing, can the insurers argue against any possible claims?
Well, of course they can; they're insurers. The question is, with the above quite specific request to the broker, can they argue against that with any degree of legal right?
Thoughts & comments welcome but please keep to the point and avoid the , "...do a Nurburgring track day..." line because I do UK trackdays in a track car and this is a bit of fun with mates and the chance to drive the Green Hell again.
I've been to the Nordschleife a few times on public days but it's getting a bit scary. I don't mind wrecking a £1000 car but the 3rd party claims do worry me now I'm a bit more growed up and responsible :-)
I've been checking the insurance route and I've seen a few for and against arguments regarding claims, some recovered costs where others were left holding the baby. So I thought I'd check it out with my insurers and called them up. They suggested that I should talk to my broker as they were experts in this so I sent them an email with the following text:
"I am taking time out to visit Europe in September. Can you confirm that I will be covered for driving in France, Holland, Luxembourg, Belgium & Germany for a period of 10 days beginning September 28th. Can you also detail any restrictions on driving in those countries such as areas or countries that are excluded from the policy or that may have restrictions such as German unlimited speed roads?"
Their written response was:
".....automatically provides 31 days foreign use in any insurance year within EU coiuntries - There are no specific restrictions. You must take your certificate of motor...." yadda yadda yadda.
They refered me to sections in the policy that detail sections on customs, documents etc. all of which do not mention any restrictions. So, I dug some more.
I read through the entire policy and the only thing that came remotely close was the exclusion for:
Rally
Competition
Motor Trial
On a racetrack
On a circuit; or (bad use of semi-colon there)
On a prepared course
Now, the Nurburgring GmBH go to great pains to explain that the Nordschleife is neither a racetrack nor a circuit but is it a prepared course? So with the owners saying it's not a circuit and the Herman rozzers and go'ment agreeing, can the insurers argue against any possible claims?
Well, of course they can; they're insurers. The question is, with the above quite specific request to the broker, can they argue against that with any degree of legal right?
Thoughts & comments welcome but please keep to the point and avoid the , "...do a Nurburgring track day..." line because I do UK trackdays in a track car and this is a bit of fun with mates and the chance to drive the Green Hell again.
Edited by Fireblade69 on Thursday 17th June 22:52
I guess I'm trying to avoid asking a direct question on the basis that the answer will most likely, be "No, you can't drive on it at all".
I know that the vagaries of insurance can be a bit one-sided but it can work both ways.
The legal question doesn't seem to be if they will pay out to a 3rd party in the event of an accident, they are legally obliged to do so. But, if they know about it then they may specifically exclude driving on it and asking them directly will flag that up. The end result of that is, there is no point in going so what I am trying to do is stay on the right side of grey but still have a little fun.
That said, I agree that your honesty attitude is the right one I'm just astonished that you are even entertaining the thought that the insurers will be okay with it. I'll certainly bear the up-front honesty card in mind though if it still stays grey, thanks for your input.
I know that the vagaries of insurance can be a bit one-sided but it can work both ways.
The legal question doesn't seem to be if they will pay out to a 3rd party in the event of an accident, they are legally obliged to do so. But, if they know about it then they may specifically exclude driving on it and asking them directly will flag that up. The end result of that is, there is no point in going so what I am trying to do is stay on the right side of grey but still have a little fun.
That said, I agree that your honesty attitude is the right one I'm just astonished that you are even entertaining the thought that the insurers will be okay with it. I'll certainly bear the up-front honesty card in mind though if it still stays grey, thanks for your input.
I've had track day insurance and they are quite interesting in themselves, still no 3rd party liability though but on the racetrack it's "tough call old bean." On Friday last week at a trackday, I saw a M3 E92 in the wall at Silverstone, very obviously written off and a Exige t-boned a GT3RS right in front of me so I know the pain is there but it's all acceptable risk on a trackday.
If I could get a policy for the Nordschleife then great but unless you're a German citizen, they are practically non-existent. Well, I've not found one and it's not through lack of trying.
Please understand that I am trying to play the rules but they're not making it easy. The first post tells you what I had from the insurance broker after asking a quite specific question. Does anyone think that if I say, "If I drive on the Nordschliefe on a touristenfahrten day will I be covered?" then the insurance broker/underwriter will be happy with that? I don't. Remember, the point is to get legally covered on there, not to try and get excluded so I can't go.
Oh, and the two ares of restriction on Dottinger Hohe and around Hotel are legally enforcable and sometimes policed with actual radar guns. It is a public road after all. :-D
If I could get a policy for the Nordschleife then great but unless you're a German citizen, they are practically non-existent. Well, I've not found one and it's not through lack of trying.
Please understand that I am trying to play the rules but they're not making it easy. The first post tells you what I had from the insurance broker after asking a quite specific question. Does anyone think that if I say, "If I drive on the Nordschliefe on a touristenfahrten day will I be covered?" then the insurance broker/underwriter will be happy with that? I don't. Remember, the point is to get legally covered on there, not to try and get excluded so I can't go.
Oh, and the two ares of restriction on Dottinger Hohe and around Hotel are legally enforcable and sometimes policed with actual radar guns. It is a public road after all. :-D
Edited by Fireblade69 on Thursday 17th June 22:43
edh said:
...I can't imagine coming back from a 'ring trip and telling my wife we had to sell the house because I'd had an accident & written off other cars / injured bikers.
Yeah, that wouldn't be a good thing. I think wisdom prevailing, asking the direct question seems to be the accepted legal way to go.Watch this space...
mrmr96 said:
Fireblade69 said:
"...the insurer would not have met the third party costs if it was not obliged to do so under the Road Traffic Act. As such, I believe that it would be entitled to recover those costs from...."
Wouldn't that apply for for all claims relating to a 3rd party in accidents?
No.Wouldn't that apply for for all claims relating to a 3rd party in accidents?
If you don't breach the T&C's then they pay out to the 3rd party and you are not pursued.
If you do breack the T&C's then they would like not to pay out, but the law compells them to do so. So they pay out to the 3rd party and recover the costs from you, which they are entitled to do because you broke the terms.
confused.com? Know why now :-(
Right, first response from the broker:
"The Certificate of Motor Insurance excludes use for racing or speed-tesing and in addition to this page 50 of the policy booklet under section H excludes use on a racetrack, circuit or prepared course. I have spoken to xxx and they have advised they are not happy the cover you whilst on the Nordschleife."
I have asked for them to let me know where that is in the policy and told them that it's not a race track, course, not speed testing etc etc.
"The Certificate of Motor Insurance excludes use for racing or speed-tesing and in addition to this page 50 of the policy booklet under section H excludes use on a racetrack, circuit or prepared course. I have spoken to xxx and they have advised they are not happy the cover you whilst on the Nordschleife."
I have asked for them to let me know where that is in the policy and told them that it's not a race track, course, not speed testing etc etc.
I mean really, how hard is it? All I want is some cover to mitigate the risk with 3rd party claims. I'm not wanting fully comp and I'm not going to risk my life by launching it onto it's roof at Brunchen on purpose. The established risk of me driving, (1 accident in 20 years and that was some prick driving into me on the M4 and no points on my license since '96 - and I ride a Fireblade as well), and all I want is for them to cover 3rd party in the the same way they would if I were to drive into a Ferrari garage and lunch a 599FXX by accidently pressing the loud pedal. In fact, surely the risk is reduced at the Nordschleife as it is properly controlled, unlike the M sodding 2 gitting 5.
3rd party coverage for the Nordschleife, (without making me sell the house to pay for recovered costs), please Mr Insurer
3rd party coverage for the Nordschleife, (without making me sell the house to pay for recovered costs), please Mr Insurer
I've responded to the broker:
"The policy exclusions are not clear and are contrary, as mentioned earlier, to the legal classification of the Nordschleife as defined within European law. Please clarify this with xxx.
I think you’ll find that clarification is key here so we would need a definitive statement from the insurers as to why it is excluded if that is the case so that we can then ask for further clarification from the insurance ombudsman if necessary.
As our broker, I expect you to act in our interests here."
Had to add the last line as they sounded decidedly as if they couldn't give a s
t. The reason for using a broker is so that I can field these sort of questions to them and they can go and find out. Being my broker I would expect them to argue for me, not the insurers. Might as well go online and get it cheaper if this is the sort of service they offer.
"The policy exclusions are not clear and are contrary, as mentioned earlier, to the legal classification of the Nordschleife as defined within European law. Please clarify this with xxx.
I think you’ll find that clarification is key here so we would need a definitive statement from the insurers as to why it is excluded if that is the case so that we can then ask for further clarification from the insurance ombudsman if necessary.
As our broker, I expect you to act in our interests here."
Had to add the last line as they sounded decidedly as if they couldn't give a s
t. The reason for using a broker is so that I can field these sort of questions to them and they can go and find out. Being my broker I would expect them to argue for me, not the insurers. Might as well go online and get it cheaper if this is the sort of service they offer.Diablos-666 said:
I'm quiet interested in this thread as I've just recently bought a TVR and plan to go to the Ring later this year.
I'm prepared to pay for specialist "track day" cover but have no idea who does it and how much it actually costs.
As I would pay for additional insurance, if I crashed would the insurers cover 3rd party costs as well as damage to my car? i.e I wouldn't have to pay for track closures, recovery from track, damage to the barriers etc..
Sorry to hijack this thread but didn't want to start yet another Nurburgring insurance question thread.
If you've got a TVR I'd concentrate my efforts on getting some good European breakdown cover! I'm prepared to pay for specialist "track day" cover but have no idea who does it and how much it actually costs.
As I would pay for additional insurance, if I crashed would the insurers cover 3rd party costs as well as damage to my car? i.e I wouldn't have to pay for track closures, recovery from track, damage to the barriers etc..
Sorry to hijack this thread but didn't want to start yet another Nurburgring insurance question thread.
But seriously, a friend of mine that came on one of our trips in 2008 took his VXR8 and his insurance for the DAY was around £500 and that only covered his 3rd party liability and his car, no track furniture was included in that so he would have had to pay for Armco, marshalls and closures etc and that's not cheap at one and a half large an hour for closures.
Trackday insurance for TF days at the ring is not going to be cheap though, the 3rd party liability kicks in there. On a closed circuit Nordschleife day like the Circuit Days 700, 3rd party liability doesn't apply, you can crash into whoever you like and it's tough-titty. Not sure about the circuit damage though, one assumes that CD take liability for that in the event of an off.
For my crappy old Golf Mk4 turbo at Bedford GT a couple of years ago, it was £60 for the day with £1500 excess. Now get this, the excess on track day insurance is a bit strange, if the damage to the car is say, £1400 you get nowt. If the damage is £1700, you get £1700. Weird. And some policies only have a total write off clause so won't pay out if the car can be economically repaired. (Lighter fluid and matches in the glovebox are your friends there
)No response from the slack mother-loving broker, and I know he works Saturdays.
Edited by Fireblade69 on Saturday 19th June 21:31
tertius said:
Fireblade69 said:
Trackday insurance for TF days at the ring is not going to be cheap though, the 3rd party liability kicks in there. On a closed circuit Nordschleife day like the Circuit Days 700, 3rd party liability doesn't apply, you can crash into whoever you like and it's tough-titty. Not sure about the circuit damage though, one assumes that CD take liability for that in the event of an off.
This is a contradiction in terms - TF is not a track day so track day insurance is not appropriate or relevant.With regard to the Circuit Days 700, as far as I know they are piggy backing off the Destination Nurburgring organised day - http://www.destination-nurburgring.com/
This is a track day organised according to UK / ATDO rules so there is no third party liability, however, at the day they ran in April, which I was on, you would be billed for any circuit damage.
I had a thought earlier. If the insurance company does not specifically exclude it and they write to tell you that it will be excluded even though they can't say where in the policy it is then aren't they legally obliged to give you notification of the change of terms & conditions before they apply? (Can some suitable lawyer type confirm that) And by doing so, they are basically saying, "Yes we going to exclude this specifically because we technically have not as yet."
If there is a period of time that they are required to give in order to change of terms and conditions then that period from notification to the change should mean that you are covered during that time.
Or am I talking a load of cock?
If there is a period of time that they are required to give in order to change of terms and conditions then that period from notification to the change should mean that you are covered during that time.
Or am I talking a load of cock?
Wow! Actual evidence from someone that understands what I'm on about.
I'm not 11 years old and I do understand, (more than some of you it seems), what I am talking about. This is all about trying to do get a definitive answers to my questions in the original post.
We established quite early on, thanks to some early posters, that the chances of being covered without having it specified in writing are slim to none with a majority of the risk on the insured. We also established that honesty is the best policy but the one least likely to get you what you want. But, this is all about risk management and liability in the event of an off. So currently, I am waiting for my broker to find out why the insurer is "not happy" about me driving on the 'ring so I can then:
a) do something to make him happy
or
b) not care about him being happy as long as he pays out. He can be as unhappy as he wants
This is what I'm waiting for at the moment. It's a week long trip with friends, they're going on the 'ring, I want to, then we're off to a track day at Spa where I can go mad.
I am trying to get my insurers to put in writing what they will insure me for regarding the Nordschleife, (not the track Nurburgring), on a TF day, (as I don't have £900 wingwangs for a track day), and if they exclude the 'ring, what clause is it in my policy that excludes it so I can argue it. I'm going around in a 'ring taxi and I know a few people that will show me some PAX loving.
No track day at the 'ring. Eliminate that from your thoughts.
I'm not trying to pull the wool over their eyes but it is like pulling teeth, I can tell you. And I would LOVE to see a group policy that specifically allows any driver to drive any car in the fleet on the Nordschleife that isn't related to a company that specialises in driving there.
I'm still waiting for Slack, Harry & Company to get back to me. Unsurprisingly.
I'm not 11 years old and I do understand, (more than some of you it seems), what I am talking about. This is all about trying to do get a definitive answers to my questions in the original post.
We established quite early on, thanks to some early posters, that the chances of being covered without having it specified in writing are slim to none with a majority of the risk on the insured. We also established that honesty is the best policy but the one least likely to get you what you want. But, this is all about risk management and liability in the event of an off. So currently, I am waiting for my broker to find out why the insurer is "not happy" about me driving on the 'ring so I can then:
a) do something to make him happy
or
b) not care about him being happy as long as he pays out. He can be as unhappy as he wants
This is what I'm waiting for at the moment. It's a week long trip with friends, they're going on the 'ring, I want to, then we're off to a track day at Spa where I can go mad.
I am trying to get my insurers to put in writing what they will insure me for regarding the Nordschleife, (not the track Nurburgring), on a TF day, (as I don't have £900 wingwangs for a track day), and if they exclude the 'ring, what clause is it in my policy that excludes it so I can argue it. I'm going around in a 'ring taxi and I know a few people that will show me some PAX loving.
No track day at the 'ring. Eliminate that from your thoughts.
I'm not trying to pull the wool over their eyes but it is like pulling teeth, I can tell you. And I would LOVE to see a group policy that specifically allows any driver to drive any car in the fleet on the Nordschleife that isn't related to a company that specialises in driving there.
I'm still waiting for Slack, Harry & Company to get back to me. Unsurprisingly.
Sorry about the lack of progress, I've been in India for a couple of weeks. They should have the Nordschleife over there; they don't give a flying crap about anything on the road!
Cows/tuc-tucs/lorries/mopeds with 4 people on them coming straight for you on the wrong side of a dual carriageway!
Anyway.
I've had a couple of discussions with my broker and the underwriter is still not budging. I do have a letter from them from which to work on which is:
"Your request to cover the policyholder whilst driving on the Nurburgring has been declined. Please refer you to the policy booklet under the heading " Exceptions which apply to your whole policy",section H, Rallies, competitions,trials and track use.
An explanation of how we have arrived at this decision is as detailed below;
Our private car policies, like the majority of private car policies, are designed for the everyday use of a car on the normal roads of the UK.
We appreciate that some customers, particularly those with higher performance vehicles, may wish to 'try' their cars on a racetrack or other form of driving circuit. In these circumstances we anticipate that the driver and/or vehicle's behaviour could markedly differ to that originally presented to us as the insurance risk, and upon which we calculated the premium. We have therefore excluded this use of the vehicle from our policy cover in common with many other insurers.
The policy wording exclusion we have used is broadly worded to give a complete idea of the type of use being excluded and to help eliminate any doubt that may arise in a customer's mind. We believe that our exclusion makes it clear to our customers that the use of a vehicle on any form of racetrack, circuit or prepared course is not covered. We have not specifically defined the words 'racetrack' or 'circuit', as we believe the normal meaning of these words, as defined in the Oxford English Dictionary, in relation to motor vehicles, clearly conveys the intention of our exclusion. In addition, we understand that many of the websites relating to these tracks and circuits generally have a section dealing with the specialist insurance requirements of such use and, at the very least, suggest that anyone contemplating such use should check with their vehicle insurer to establish whether they have any cover.
The full details of your enquiry , that the customer intends to drive on a public day, not a private, or track day were given to the underwriters and our decision is based on that information."
Now although it makes sense to them, it still seems to skirt the issue that the Nordschleife during a touristenfahrten session is not any of them things. I have written to Nurburgring GmBH to get their views and to the German equivalent of the road rozzers to get their take.
Once I have these then I will present my case to the insurers and if they are still being picky, I'll tell them I'm taking it up with the insurance ombudsman. If they still don't play ball, I'll actually take it up with the insurance ombudsman. All of which won't cost me any wedge but will be a pain in the arse.
Any more advice from you guys?
Cows/tuc-tucs/lorries/mopeds with 4 people on them coming straight for you on the wrong side of a dual carriageway!
Anyway.
I've had a couple of discussions with my broker and the underwriter is still not budging. I do have a letter from them from which to work on which is:
"Your request to cover the policyholder whilst driving on the Nurburgring has been declined. Please refer you to the policy booklet under the heading " Exceptions which apply to your whole policy",section H, Rallies, competitions,trials and track use.
An explanation of how we have arrived at this decision is as detailed below;
Our private car policies, like the majority of private car policies, are designed for the everyday use of a car on the normal roads of the UK.
We appreciate that some customers, particularly those with higher performance vehicles, may wish to 'try' their cars on a racetrack or other form of driving circuit. In these circumstances we anticipate that the driver and/or vehicle's behaviour could markedly differ to that originally presented to us as the insurance risk, and upon which we calculated the premium. We have therefore excluded this use of the vehicle from our policy cover in common with many other insurers.
The policy wording exclusion we have used is broadly worded to give a complete idea of the type of use being excluded and to help eliminate any doubt that may arise in a customer's mind. We believe that our exclusion makes it clear to our customers that the use of a vehicle on any form of racetrack, circuit or prepared course is not covered. We have not specifically defined the words 'racetrack' or 'circuit', as we believe the normal meaning of these words, as defined in the Oxford English Dictionary, in relation to motor vehicles, clearly conveys the intention of our exclusion. In addition, we understand that many of the websites relating to these tracks and circuits generally have a section dealing with the specialist insurance requirements of such use and, at the very least, suggest that anyone contemplating such use should check with their vehicle insurer to establish whether they have any cover.
The full details of your enquiry , that the customer intends to drive on a public day, not a private, or track day were given to the underwriters and our decision is based on that information."
Now although it makes sense to them, it still seems to skirt the issue that the Nordschleife during a touristenfahrten session is not any of them things. I have written to Nurburgring GmBH to get their views and to the German equivalent of the road rozzers to get their take.
Once I have these then I will present my case to the insurers and if they are still being picky, I'll tell them I'm taking it up with the insurance ombudsman. If they still don't play ball, I'll actually take it up with the insurance ombudsman. All of which won't cost me any wedge but will be a pain in the arse.
Any more advice from you guys?
Great, thanks for that. I'll check my photo stash and see if there are any of that. I have got one of some German rozzers checking vehicles on the other side of the barrier.
I'm also thinking of using examples from around the EU of roads that are used as courses. Mulsanne at Le Mans and Monaco spring to mind and in the UK, Olivers Mount in Scarborough, the Northwest 200 in Northern Ireland - all circuits at some point and public roads as well.
The most interesting one came from a mate of mine who came up with a good one; the Isle of Man. Speed limit-less and also used as a race track but more interestingly, during the TT fortnight and especially during Mad Sunday it's turned into a public one way road with speed limits in certain sections and it's more than twice the length of the Nordschleife and is the definition of a prepared circuit. If you're an insurer, you can't cop out of paying up at that.
Also, as the insurance letter stated that they assessed the risk based on normal usage and did not expect this kind of use, then why did they say earlier in the response that they appreciated that people with high performance cars may wish to explore the performance?
I'm not going down without a fight
I'm also thinking of using examples from around the EU of roads that are used as courses. Mulsanne at Le Mans and Monaco spring to mind and in the UK, Olivers Mount in Scarborough, the Northwest 200 in Northern Ireland - all circuits at some point and public roads as well.
The most interesting one came from a mate of mine who came up with a good one; the Isle of Man. Speed limit-less and also used as a race track but more interestingly, during the TT fortnight and especially during Mad Sunday it's turned into a public one way road with speed limits in certain sections and it's more than twice the length of the Nordschleife and is the definition of a prepared circuit. If you're an insurer, you can't cop out of paying up at that.
Also, as the insurance letter stated that they assessed the risk based on normal usage and did not expect this kind of use, then why did they say earlier in the response that they appreciated that people with high performance cars may wish to explore the performance?
I'm not going down without a fight
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