Got an offer for a job. Recruitment guy seems a little pushy
Discussion
So I have an offer for a job doing engine development work for an outfit that has a long history in haulage among other things, but is now seriously going down the engineering route to develop one of their most promising products.
I have had two interviews which went well and just now I have had an offer relayed to me via the recruitment guy. The offer is a little lower than I was expecting (considering the role was initially advertised as £35k with benefits and bonus - though I wasn't expecting 35 to be honest, but they've offered even lower than what I was expecting) but maybe, as this is my first time in this situation, my expectations are off.
Anyway, whilst ploughing that furrow, I wasn't about to have all my eggs in one basket so I was chasing other opportunities as well. On friday I got a call from another recruitment guy who told me his client (a very well respected race engine maker in Brixworth) had called him specifically to ask about me and get me in for interview. Knowing the history of this company I thought it silly to just say no right off the bat. So I have an interview with them on Thursday.
This morning, an old lead I was chasing with a much larger company in the Nuclear field, got back to me and they want to interview me as well and have arranged something for Wednesday.
Not knowing anything about the offer from the first company, I agreed to the interview there as well. However, I have just got off the phone with the recruitment guy for the first job and I told him about these other two interviews (possibly a mistake on my part, but I didn't know what else to tell him!). He basically said that they wouldn't like me going to these other interviews as they have now made an offer, that the offer might only last 24 hours and that I need to come back to him with a salary number which would effectively guarantee me cancelling the future interviews.
I am not sure how much of this is the company in question and how much is the recruitment guy wanting to ensure his commission. I said I'd get back to him later today but now I feel a bit pressured and bit stuck! Any advice from the PH veterans?
This is the only offer I have had so far, and while it certainly seems like a great opportunity, its not the only place I want to work. The company in Brixworth certainly catches my attention thats for sure and I think I'd feel a bit cheated if I had to give up the interview opportunity.
I have had two interviews which went well and just now I have had an offer relayed to me via the recruitment guy. The offer is a little lower than I was expecting (considering the role was initially advertised as £35k with benefits and bonus - though I wasn't expecting 35 to be honest, but they've offered even lower than what I was expecting) but maybe, as this is my first time in this situation, my expectations are off.
Anyway, whilst ploughing that furrow, I wasn't about to have all my eggs in one basket so I was chasing other opportunities as well. On friday I got a call from another recruitment guy who told me his client (a very well respected race engine maker in Brixworth) had called him specifically to ask about me and get me in for interview. Knowing the history of this company I thought it silly to just say no right off the bat. So I have an interview with them on Thursday.
This morning, an old lead I was chasing with a much larger company in the Nuclear field, got back to me and they want to interview me as well and have arranged something for Wednesday.
Not knowing anything about the offer from the first company, I agreed to the interview there as well. However, I have just got off the phone with the recruitment guy for the first job and I told him about these other two interviews (possibly a mistake on my part, but I didn't know what else to tell him!). He basically said that they wouldn't like me going to these other interviews as they have now made an offer, that the offer might only last 24 hours and that I need to come back to him with a salary number which would effectively guarantee me cancelling the future interviews.
I am not sure how much of this is the company in question and how much is the recruitment guy wanting to ensure his commission. I said I'd get back to him later today but now I feel a bit pressured and bit stuck! Any advice from the PH veterans?
This is the only offer I have had so far, and while it certainly seems like a great opportunity, its not the only place I want to work. The company in Brixworth certainly catches my attention thats for sure and I think I'd feel a bit cheated if I had to give up the interview opportunity.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 7th April 15:48
Ok thanks for the advice chaps
I have just had a friend of mine say to me that I should decline the offer through the agency and then deal directly with the company and if alls well, take the job that way. But I am not a douche bag so I won't be doing that.
Also had the future FIL, retired CEO of a very large company (how very PH!), tell me exactly what you guys have.
I have just had a friend of mine say to me that I should decline the offer through the agency and then deal directly with the company and if alls well, take the job that way. But I am not a douche bag so I won't be doing that.
Also had the future FIL, retired CEO of a very large company (how very PH!), tell me exactly what you guys have.
daddy cool said:
I'd go for the other interviews - and good luck with whichever one you like the most!
As for telling the recruitment consultant about the other jobs, well too late now, but in future at least avoid saying the company name or the area. The next thing the RC will do is cold-call that company (or call around companies in that area that seem to fit the bill) and tell them that they have some potential employees for that specific role in the hope of picking up that contract - basically you are helping them in their work to research other ways to generate themselves commission!
I know this because thats what i was told to do when i was a RC.
I did it for a month because i was out of work but was so disgusted at the practices and the way people were treated that i walked out the door. Next job was a few months in a warehouse lugging boxes around with people that mostly couldnt speak english - but at least i could sleep easy at night!
Best chalk that mistake up to in-experience then. Oh well. As for telling the recruitment consultant about the other jobs, well too late now, but in future at least avoid saying the company name or the area. The next thing the RC will do is cold-call that company (or call around companies in that area that seem to fit the bill) and tell them that they have some potential employees for that specific role in the hope of picking up that contract - basically you are helping them in their work to research other ways to generate themselves commission!
I know this because thats what i was told to do when i was a RC.
I did it for a month because i was out of work but was so disgusted at the practices and the way people were treated that i walked out the door. Next job was a few months in a warehouse lugging boxes around with people that mostly couldnt speak english - but at least i could sleep easy at night!
Thinking about it a bit more now, I think that there isn't a £xxK number to give him to seal the deal. Regardless of the money I would want to at least get a look in at the opportunities these other companies present so that I have something to compare to, so that I can make the right decision.
I feel like such a douche as well because my OH, who is also PhD level, is getting knocked back left right and centre and here I am moaning that people seem quite keen to employ me!
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 7th April 16:13
jogon said:
Agree with everyone else go to the other interviews and please don't say you told the original recruitment guy the names of the other companies you will be interviewing with.
Never discuss anything else with them apart from the role they are putting you up for.
They are all snakes.
I'm not going to say anything other than I feel very naive at the moment! Whats done is done, no point dwelling on it.Never discuss anything else with them apart from the role they are putting you up for.
They are all snakes.
I feel exactly like the time I took a car for test drive, but didn't like the deal offered afterwards for the condition of the car, yet because I'd had a test drive that had somehow meant I'd put pen to paper and I would be walking out the door with the keys. Basically being press-ganged into buying it because he'd "done me a favour"
Tampon said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
I'm not going to say anything other than I feel very naive at the moment! Whats done is done, no point dwelling on it.
I feel exactly like the time I took a car for test drive, but didn't like the deal offered afterwards for the condition of the car, yet because I'd had a test drive that had somehow meant I'd put pen to paper and I would be walking out the door with the keys. Basically being press-ganged into buying it because he'd "done me a favour"
That is just a pressure technique they are trained to make nice people like you feel that way. I feel exactly like the time I took a car for test drive, but didn't like the deal offered afterwards for the condition of the car, yet because I'd had a test drive that had somehow meant I'd put pen to paper and I would be walking out the door with the keys. Basically being press-ganged into buying it because he'd "done me a favour"
Maybe inform the companies you are lining up a interviews with that a RA (name them to them) rang up and asked for the details and you have just found out what he might be up to. Stops them being done over as well.
Will try drop them a note.
Part of the issue is knowing what I am worth. I have no idea what sort of salary I should be on. I can only compare to my peers. £30k ish seems to be what my peers have started on as a minimum (my offer is lower than this by a few k so is basically a graduate salary). Quite a few started on 35k but this was with JLR who have deep pockets. A couple of guys were outliers on nearly 45 but their PhDs basically made them experts in something their company dearly wanted, hence they could just about hold all the cards. I am not sure where I stand, my PhD relates to development of an engine emissions abatement technology. This company are developing their product to meet future emissions, but also as its a small team, its going to be hands on from the air handling system at the front, combustion and fuel injection in the middle and exhaust after treatment at the end. So there is some stuff in there that I have no direct experience of (even though I understand very well the physics of them).
I have thought about accepting their offer for the duration of the probation period. Then if they are happy with my performance we can move up a few k.
aizvara said:
I've had a similar experience - had an interview and it went very well.
That afternoon I was out meeting a friend and had a phone call from the agency saying I'd been offered the job. I said I had another interview the following week, and I'd make up my mind after that. That didn't go down well, and I was repeatedly called throughout that afternoon. They claimed that there was another candidate and the company were in a hurry to employ one or other of us.
Which didn't leave me any time to discuss the job or the relocating it would require with my girlfriend. They kept pushing even when I explained all that, escalating up to the "agency manager" contacting me and saying I'd lose the offer unless I said I'd accept it that day. If it wasn't for the fact that I'd been out of work for a while, I'd have told them where to go.
As it turned out there was no other candidate, and no massive hurry to hire from the company itself. The whole thing was just another example of my own naivety - one day I'll learn.
That is pretty bad!That afternoon I was out meeting a friend and had a phone call from the agency saying I'd been offered the job. I said I had another interview the following week, and I'd make up my mind after that. That didn't go down well, and I was repeatedly called throughout that afternoon. They claimed that there was another candidate and the company were in a hurry to employ one or other of us.
Which didn't leave me any time to discuss the job or the relocating it would require with my girlfriend. They kept pushing even when I explained all that, escalating up to the "agency manager" contacting me and saying I'd lose the offer unless I said I'd accept it that day. If it wasn't for the fact that I'd been out of work for a while, I'd have told them where to go.
As it turned out there was no other candidate, and no massive hurry to hire from the company itself. The whole thing was just another example of my own naivety - one day I'll learn.
Cheers Prand
The two interviews are this week, so in all likelihood, if I can get in some serious questions of my own at them I should be in a position to decide which way to turn by Friday. So slightly less than one working week.
Who knows what will happen, Company B in Brixworth had basically read a 3 line description of me in their contracted recruitment agencies news letter and immediately got on the phone to them. For all I know I have been made out to be something I am not and it'll be a no go. But I would at least like the opportunity of finding out and not be left wondering what if. As for Company C, this is a large company and I have basically managed to get my CV passed round to various people through inside contacts, and at some stage someone in the right line of work had taken interest. It may well be that they don't have a full position but want to get me onside or into a team for a while until they know what to do with me. It wasn't apparent from the guy I spoke with that there was a defined vacancy going. But again, I'd like to know what the deal is so I can make a judgement.
The two interviews are this week, so in all likelihood, if I can get in some serious questions of my own at them I should be in a position to decide which way to turn by Friday. So slightly less than one working week.
Who knows what will happen, Company B in Brixworth had basically read a 3 line description of me in their contracted recruitment agencies news letter and immediately got on the phone to them. For all I know I have been made out to be something I am not and it'll be a no go. But I would at least like the opportunity of finding out and not be left wondering what if. As for Company C, this is a large company and I have basically managed to get my CV passed round to various people through inside contacts, and at some stage someone in the right line of work had taken interest. It may well be that they don't have a full position but want to get me onside or into a team for a while until they know what to do with me. It wasn't apparent from the guy I spoke with that there was a defined vacancy going. But again, I'd like to know what the deal is so I can make a judgement.
singlecoil said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
I have thought about accepting their offer for the duration of the probation period. Then if they are happy with my performance we can move up a few k.
YMMV, but I would never accept a deal like that. No-one wants to suddenly start paying more for something they were getting for less, plus you will almost certainly be working harder during the initial period anyway, if only to get up to speed on what they are doing.Been in touch with a mate of mine who essentially went down this route a year or two ago. He's a cheeky bugger though and managed to pry out nearly 40K. He is very very good though so the ball was in his court.
The big plus to this job is the distance from my current residence. Its a 10-15 minute drive down some country lanes. Ideal. However, we are moving house when this place sells so that may not remain. At worst its a short term plus point.
It is worth mentioning that the company who made the offer is rather small in relative terms. I am not sure of their actual turn over or profits, but I'd suggest the head engineer probably hasn't got that much dough to play with so I do have to bare in mind that they just can't afford it.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Monday 7th April 19:38
40's a bit high i think mate! I know advertised at between 35-55k (top end is way too high for me) i may ask for the minimum of 35 but realistically i hoped for somewhere inbetween that and 30.
At company B these salaries are apparently very strong. There is an element of doing it for love of motorsport i think and the name is prestigious so that's the trade off. As I said it might not be a goer but I at least want to know.
At company B these salaries are apparently very strong. There is an element of doing it for love of motorsport i think and the name is prestigious so that's the trade off. As I said it might not be a goer but I at least want to know.
Gah I'm probably not doing myself any favours and doing this all wrong. I am not very good at this negotiation lark.
They called back today with a new offer. The base pay went up by 3k and they added in some extra pension contributions and also private healthcare. Add in an undisclosed bonus (there will be one as the whole group receives some kind of yearly bonus, but the head of the new engineering dept is also pushing for a separate engineering bonus - presumably as and when they start to make money).
I haven't done the maths, but ball park, total package is pretty close to 35
I think the health care is a bit of red herring though as given I am only 28, eat healthy and still train 5-6 times a week (gym and swim training - in my teens I used to swim 70 km a week, every week, for years!) I don't envisage myself dropping dead or coming down with serious conditions any time soon. However, a friend has said it is a good thing to have. Not sold on it yet.
Anyway, also been in touch with the guy who owns the recruitment agency. He was much nicer, wants me to go to these other interviews if it helps make up my mind. After all he doesn't want to force me into the role he has to fill only for me to get cold feet 6 months in and leave them all in the lurch. He's good friends with the hiring manager and wants to retain his business. I did verbally accept the offer after thinking and talking it over with my OH, but the consultancy owner has decided to withdraw that verbal acceptance and go with a "he's 80-90% there, but wants to go to the other interviews to so he can make a better informed decision. We should have confirmation either way on Friday". So no formal acceptance, nothing in writing, just a 80-90% sure. RA owner is happy for me and wants me to attend these interviews.
I am happy with this so far. I feel that come friday I may be in a position to try play them off each other. Apparently this first company really want me on board, but I haven't yet felt confident enough to say if they want me, then they'll bloody well pay for me! If they're willing to forget about me over a few more £k then they obviously didn't. But I don't want to come across as greedy or hard work. I am also scared of extorting all this money from them and then not performing as they expect!
Also apparently there wasn't a lower bound for the salary. I did say it was advertised at 35-55 and therefore I want 35 as minimum but the actual specs are 50 k tops and no lower bound. Slight embellishment on the RAs part I suspect to capture more interest.
To those who are having a go about engineers pay, then I totally agree. Sadly I think this sort of thing has been going on so long that engineers are expected to work for those salaries as a normal. I certainly don't think I'll be stuck down at this level forever though, it is entirely possible to earn very excellent money as an engineer.
On the whole I have to look at this as the whole picture. Yes the base salary is kinda low, the benefits are ok. But, it is a small company, they are just starting down the path of engineering development for the first time and there is great opportunity here to get my hands dirty with everything from air handling, fuel injection, engine mapping, combustion, modelling with FEA, CFD, turbochargers, after treatment etc and being involved from cradle to grave. A big company may be willing and able to pay more, but can they offer that kind of learning opportunity? The number of new skills I can potentially add to my roster here is massive and my work will have genuine impact.
Additionally the commute is excellent (a big tick on my list if I am honest. I value my free time greatly) and relocation costs minimal which all pluses in the grand scheme.
If in two years time the salary prospects haven't really improved then I can always leave for something else. I'll hardly be any less employable than I am now.
They called back today with a new offer. The base pay went up by 3k and they added in some extra pension contributions and also private healthcare. Add in an undisclosed bonus (there will be one as the whole group receives some kind of yearly bonus, but the head of the new engineering dept is also pushing for a separate engineering bonus - presumably as and when they start to make money).
I haven't done the maths, but ball park, total package is pretty close to 35
I think the health care is a bit of red herring though as given I am only 28, eat healthy and still train 5-6 times a week (gym and swim training - in my teens I used to swim 70 km a week, every week, for years!) I don't envisage myself dropping dead or coming down with serious conditions any time soon. However, a friend has said it is a good thing to have. Not sold on it yet.
Anyway, also been in touch with the guy who owns the recruitment agency. He was much nicer, wants me to go to these other interviews if it helps make up my mind. After all he doesn't want to force me into the role he has to fill only for me to get cold feet 6 months in and leave them all in the lurch. He's good friends with the hiring manager and wants to retain his business. I did verbally accept the offer after thinking and talking it over with my OH, but the consultancy owner has decided to withdraw that verbal acceptance and go with a "he's 80-90% there, but wants to go to the other interviews to so he can make a better informed decision. We should have confirmation either way on Friday". So no formal acceptance, nothing in writing, just a 80-90% sure. RA owner is happy for me and wants me to attend these interviews.
I am happy with this so far. I feel that come friday I may be in a position to try play them off each other. Apparently this first company really want me on board, but I haven't yet felt confident enough to say if they want me, then they'll bloody well pay for me! If they're willing to forget about me over a few more £k then they obviously didn't. But I don't want to come across as greedy or hard work. I am also scared of extorting all this money from them and then not performing as they expect!
Also apparently there wasn't a lower bound for the salary. I did say it was advertised at 35-55 and therefore I want 35 as minimum but the actual specs are 50 k tops and no lower bound. Slight embellishment on the RAs part I suspect to capture more interest.
To those who are having a go about engineers pay, then I totally agree. Sadly I think this sort of thing has been going on so long that engineers are expected to work for those salaries as a normal. I certainly don't think I'll be stuck down at this level forever though, it is entirely possible to earn very excellent money as an engineer.
On the whole I have to look at this as the whole picture. Yes the base salary is kinda low, the benefits are ok. But, it is a small company, they are just starting down the path of engineering development for the first time and there is great opportunity here to get my hands dirty with everything from air handling, fuel injection, engine mapping, combustion, modelling with FEA, CFD, turbochargers, after treatment etc and being involved from cradle to grave. A big company may be willing and able to pay more, but can they offer that kind of learning opportunity? The number of new skills I can potentially add to my roster here is massive and my work will have genuine impact.
Additionally the commute is excellent (a big tick on my list if I am honest. I value my free time greatly) and relocation costs minimal which all pluses in the grand scheme.
If in two years time the salary prospects haven't really improved then I can always leave for something else. I'll hardly be any less employable than I am now.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 8th April 16:35
Thanks gargamel
Additionally I have been able to use my contacts to get some further insights into companies B and C and this has given me a better feeling for what salary I should expect and what work will be like. I still want to go through with the interviews to be sure though. I'll feel bad for wasting their time if I cancel, but also if I go and I decide I don't like it, so I can't win.
At B the renumeration will likely be lower than A, but offset by the prestige of working in motorsport (I met a McLaren Aerodynamics expert once....he was paid pittance and told everyone in no uncertain terms that a lot of motorsport jobs are jobs you do for the love of the sport and as such, many will do it for low pay, not sure how true that is, but I have heard it more than once).
At C, the renumeration is likely to be higher but not significantly so and likely offset by relocation and house prices. Though from what I have heard the work sounds very interesting. I guess I will know for sure tomorrow!
So, I know to some of you on here, the salary is looking low, but I suspect for someone with my level of ability and relative lack of experience (2 years working at a large steam turbine manufacturer and 3.5 years PhD at a Uni, albeit on a project for a large tier one off-highway supplier) that what has been offered now is very reasonable and a decent starting point to get my career going.
Thanks all for your advice, it has helped me out this morning in fighting my corner with the agencey!
Additionally I have been able to use my contacts to get some further insights into companies B and C and this has given me a better feeling for what salary I should expect and what work will be like. I still want to go through with the interviews to be sure though. I'll feel bad for wasting their time if I cancel, but also if I go and I decide I don't like it, so I can't win.
At B the renumeration will likely be lower than A, but offset by the prestige of working in motorsport (I met a McLaren Aerodynamics expert once....he was paid pittance and told everyone in no uncertain terms that a lot of motorsport jobs are jobs you do for the love of the sport and as such, many will do it for low pay, not sure how true that is, but I have heard it more than once).
At C, the renumeration is likely to be higher but not significantly so and likely offset by relocation and house prices. Though from what I have heard the work sounds very interesting. I guess I will know for sure tomorrow!
So, I know to some of you on here, the salary is looking low, but I suspect for someone with my level of ability and relative lack of experience (2 years working at a large steam turbine manufacturer and 3.5 years PhD at a Uni, albeit on a project for a large tier one off-highway supplier) that what has been offered now is very reasonable and a decent starting point to get my career going.
Thanks all for your advice, it has helped me out this morning in fighting my corner with the agencey!
DJRC said:
Just take A.
Now normally I rant at you for being an overassuming a
hole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.
Normally I try to ignore you because you come across as a complete dick head. You're far too abrasive and for no reason. You must be sNow normally I rant at you for being an overassuming a
hole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.t hot or have epic skills to be where you are because I don't think there are many that would put up with such abrasiveness. I knew a man once who was very curt in his action, he was a complete arse to people. He'd call the bosses s to their faces in meetings and even bring up his dead wife to win an argument. Needless to say, he might have been the best metallurgist in the area but he didn't go very far and retired in position not much better than he started in.But you are right on the money, begrudgingly. Sort of. Depending who's doing the hiring 35 is attainable even without experience. I have two mates at JLR who can atest. However, I have been able to ask around and can confirm high 20's-low 30s for what I want to do is the going rate at most places. My expectations were out of kilter. My interview today at B confirmed this as well, they expect to offer 27 as a minimum, 30 tops for similar work in the Nuclear business.
Now don't bother commenting on any of my posts or threads again if you're going to play the angry man. You don't like me and I don't much like you (even if you are generally right in what you say). I think its best for our blood pressures if we steer clear of each other yeah?
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 20:20
prand said:
Bloody hell, my apologies for me being pushy if that's the market rate for 1st class degree + post grad and some experience at age 28!
I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
engineering, especially the research and development kind isn't that well paid i don't think. This is will be my first post PhD job, its a decent start!. I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 18:19
Pit Pony said:
Otispunkmeyer said:
prand said:
Bloody hell, my apologies for me being pushy if that's the market rate for 1st class degree + post grad and some experience at age 28!
I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
engineering, especially the research and development kind isn't that well paid i don't think. This is will be my first post PhD job, its a decent start!. I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 18:19
I've got one more interview tomorrow and I'll see how that goes. But A is winning at the moment. If I play my cards right and we crack the development on the product then hopefully it'll put me in good stead. Of all 3 options I have, A is the riskiest proposition by far as its a new venture (albeit in a established business, but not one that can sustain huge spending or losses for long periods like a big company can....in 3 years time it might all be canned, who knows!), it'll be a small team and if it takes off, I'll have been a big part of its success. If the company then expands further, I think that would put me in a with a decent chance to be in a more senior/managerial role, having been there from the very beginning.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 20:31
prand said:
Pit Pony said:
28 ? That's too old to be pissing about with a graduate stating salary plus 10% in my humble opinion.
My thoughts too. Yes I know all this talking about being pushy for higher pay is a bit undignified and it's certainly not the whole reason for working somewhere,, but it takes 5 minutes to put in a counter offer that you may feel is a bit cheeky. Don't be shy and undervalue yourself as you may regret it, particularly when your firm starts expanding and they can only get hold of people on £15k plus more than you are being paid and you end up training them.
Worse still you get promoted to manage a team and your promotion is capped at 10% by HR policy and your team are all still earning more than you.
Please don't underestimate this opportunity, if you like this job but you have a gnawing feeling you could have just been a bit more upfront with your salary expectations.
Good luck either way!
Edited by prand on Wednesday 9th April 19:50
The PhD was for a large Tier one engine/plant manufacturer, so it is at least on the surface, a bit more useful than say a PhD spent on a CFD study of gnats fart given the exposure to industry processes.
I will get where I want to be. I don't doubt that. I would like to start a bit higher, but this is far from terrible.
On your last comment, I know someone who is almost exactly in that position working for a civil engineering company. She joined in the recession, but now things are better she's found out that recent grad employees are on almost as much as she is. She likes her job too much to go in and ask for more money, but we've all told her she needs to (with a big list of the good things she's done in her time there to justify it, not just that the grads are earning the same) or she needs to start looking elsewhere. She's got the experience under her belt to warrant it.
okgo said:
A mate of mine had that similar mentality, we both work in sales jobs and though he is now 30 and I'm 26 we have similar levels of experience (he did a few too many ski seasons!), in sales we see a lot of £xk basic £xxk OTE, he wouldn't even bother applying or going for roles with numbers that he thought were beyond him. Granted some of the roles were a bit far fetched, like the one you posted to a certain extent, where the band would cover new grad all the way through to seasoned master, but even still, push for the most you can get was always my thoughts, you don't really get payrises in jobs unless the promotion is a big one, so this is the time to set out your stall perhaps...
The upshot of that is now that my mate he is earning £30k as he thinks that is his level while I've moved quickly through the salary brackets (2.5x his) and am now in a very good position for the future while he will spend years earning st money for no real reason. All because he had the same mentality of "oh, that is a lot more money, I won't get that" - he who dares and all that.
I should imagine with your qualifications you are not the everyday candidate, make it work for you
I don't have an attitude of "this is a lot of money". Its not. But its not bread line either. After 3 interviews and a lot of digging through contacts, that is the going rate for an Engineering PhD + a little experience in a R&D type of role at a smaller engineering firm in the midlands. If I got to JLR and they accept me, they'll put me on 35K basic right off the bat, but I'll be doing one job and one job only. At B for example they'll offer 27K on a 1 year grad scheme (as opposed to the normal 2 year grad scheme). I think my level of experience does prohibit asking for more.... trust me I did ask for more and I didn't get it. In a few years, if this job choice pays off (it is the riskiest of the 3) I'll have a much stronger bargaining chip to start demanding the kinds of salaries people are talking about here.The upshot of that is now that my mate he is earning £30k as he thinks that is his level while I've moved quickly through the salary brackets (2.5x his) and am now in a very good position for the future while he will spend years earning s
t money for no real reason. All because he had the same mentality of "oh, that is a lot more money, I won't get that" - he who dares and all that.I should imagine with your qualifications you are not the everyday candidate, make it work for you
okgo said:
Is that normal, 2-3 years being worth £5k more? That seems low!! (obviously you know about this industry)
Thinking about it I would suspect so. Engineering is rather conservative in many areas and people won't consider you to be an expert worthy of very high pay without years and years of experience to back it. Progression can just take longer because some of the subjects in engineering really do need significant time to become truly expert at things.Having said that, I think some of the engineering salary moans are because people don't realise that a lot of degree qualified engineers don't have job titles with the word engineer in them, even though they are still involved with an engineering business. Most of my friends now from my MEng year have been working 5 or so years and some are floating in the high £30k's with company cars etc. They'll have started on mid £20's as grads, so looking at around 10k + improvement in 5 years regardless of company size. All still work within engineering.... most don't have engineer in their job title. They're not designing widgets or doing CAD, they're managing engineering problems at a higher level instead or they're becoming expert at something the folks in O&G are willing to pay handsomely for (fine if you can live with doing endless CFD and flow assurance on pipe work).
At this point in time I will be behind my friends in salary terms. However, I expect that I should be able to close the gap in the same time frame.
Finally, there is a lot to be said for choosing a job for other reasons than salary. As it happens I think I'm someway to getting the best of both worlds in my current position.
okgo said:
Makes sense then. Good luck.
The numbers really do make it clear as to why people take those degree's elsewhere in the job market, or go contracting as soon as possible. £10k in five years is shocking for a professional person. The same time frame in Law you are talking £40k at a decent firm I would have thought.
I couldn't do law, it just holds no interest, so they can pay their guys what they like! It wouldn't make me wish I'd gone down that route. Different strokes and all that.The numbers really do make it clear as to why people take those degree's elsewhere in the job market, or go contracting as soon as possible. £10k in five years is shocking for a professional person. The same time frame in Law you are talking £40k at a decent firm I would have thought.
I think today, people are very short termist and it can be hard for engineers to deliver on short term timescales like say sales guys can (i.e. you have a monthly sales target, you beat it, you are quids in). Heck you may not even realise how good a job was done until later down the line when people have moved on. You can't reward someone who no longer works for you.
I may suggest as well that a lot of engineers like job security. Plenty of engineers I have met on my travels have worked in the same company all their lives. Its a safe haven, they don't move about and can quickly get stuck in specialist roles only valuable to the company they work for and of little interest to many outside companies. Those who generally move about a bit, tend to earn more and have a broader base of skills to go with. They're more adaptable to lots of different situations... jacks of all trades. I think its better to be like that, especially early on. The time for specialising comes when you're much older.
I would think there a plenty of engineers earning lots of money like other professions. DJRC, if he is to be believed, is one example. You just have to play the game right and I would guess, be good at more than just engineering. DJRC do you have the word "engineer" in your job title/description?
So little update to close this out
Went to interviews at B and C
They went very well. At C I was there 2 hours mostly answering technical questions about engines! I actually enjoyed it strangely.
I had an offer on the table from A, at 31k + some pension, bonus, private health and 25+8 holidays. B got back to me on Thursday afternoon with a much lower offer, but the job is much lower risk (big company, ridiculous level of H&S, flexible working because its full of parents who like to have security of job). To be honest it looks like a lovely place to work, if you're 40 with 2 kids. I don't need that in my life just yet.
C had said in the interview that they had a few other candidates to go through and that they'd be holding second round interviews with the MD over a week later as he was away. C was pretty good, motorsports based, perhaps a much narrower track to follow mind, but exciting all the same. But because of that I didn't think they'd be able to move fast enough as I really had to make a decision by this monday.
Anyway I got a surprise call on friday and C had bypassed all the second interviews with the MD etc and offered a good package. Better than A.
It was a really difficult decision to make, I hated it! But on balance, I stuck with A (the offer from C even illicited a higher offer from A to sweeten the deal) as I think I would prefer to be located further north than south and additionally, my OH will have much better career opportunity if we do that. We will be better off together this way, rather then just me being better off.
So hopefully I have ended up at the best choice. I got a little more money out of them as well and the work promises great variety and challenge. Wish me luck!
I will say though, bit of a trick by the RA for C (C don't normally use RAs , but they were in a bind). The RA had knowledge of an Employee who left A in december and urged me to contact him through LinkedIn because he might have some, lets say "alternative", views on working for A. Now I don't have LinkedIn premium so couldn't get in contact anyway and I am glad I didn't. I mentioned this to the RA who deals with A (who is long time friend of the new manager at A) and the manager got in contact to explain why said Employee might have cause to bad mouth A. I have no reason to disbelieve him, he's been very genuine so far, and lets just say said employee had gotten very comfortable and wasn't pulling his weight under the new management. I think he left for new pastures before they could let him go.
So thanks for the help and advice all ! Much appreciated.
Went to interviews at B and C
They went very well. At C I was there 2 hours mostly answering technical questions about engines! I actually enjoyed it strangely.
I had an offer on the table from A, at 31k + some pension, bonus, private health and 25+8 holidays. B got back to me on Thursday afternoon with a much lower offer, but the job is much lower risk (big company, ridiculous level of H&S, flexible working because its full of parents who like to have security of job). To be honest it looks like a lovely place to work, if you're 40 with 2 kids. I don't need that in my life just yet.
C had said in the interview that they had a few other candidates to go through and that they'd be holding second round interviews with the MD over a week later as he was away. C was pretty good, motorsports based, perhaps a much narrower track to follow mind, but exciting all the same. But because of that I didn't think they'd be able to move fast enough as I really had to make a decision by this monday.
Anyway I got a surprise call on friday and C had bypassed all the second interviews with the MD etc and offered a good package. Better than A.
It was a really difficult decision to make, I hated it! But on balance, I stuck with A (the offer from C even illicited a higher offer from A to sweeten the deal) as I think I would prefer to be located further north than south and additionally, my OH will have much better career opportunity if we do that. We will be better off together this way, rather then just me being better off.
So hopefully I have ended up at the best choice. I got a little more money out of them as well and the work promises great variety and challenge. Wish me luck!
I will say though, bit of a trick by the RA for C (C don't normally use RAs , but they were in a bind). The RA had knowledge of an Employee who left A in december and urged me to contact him through LinkedIn because he might have some, lets say "alternative", views on working for A. Now I don't have LinkedIn premium so couldn't get in contact anyway and I am glad I didn't. I mentioned this to the RA who deals with A (who is long time friend of the new manager at A) and the manager got in contact to explain why said Employee might have cause to bad mouth A. I have no reason to disbelieve him, he's been very genuine so far, and lets just say said employee had gotten very comfortable and wasn't pulling his weight under the new management. I think he left for new pastures before they could let him go.
So thanks for the help and advice all ! Much appreciated.
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