New job or wait for pay review - how to approach?
Discussion
Education, if it matters, but I imagine most people on here are hugely more experienced than me with this sort of thing, so I would very much appreciate some advice. 
First of all, I'd like to say that I'm not a Money Grabbing Bar Steward. At all. If I was, I wouldn't be in teaching. However, everyone likes to be well remunerated for their achievements. I'm in my 7th year of teaching now and I've got my pay review in the next few weeks. Historically in teaching you've just been bumped up the scale no matter what (providing you weren't basically being incompetent/in a capability procedure), including going between the main and upper pay scales, the progress between is roughly about £3k, I think. This is the point I'm at.
I'm not under any procedure, obviously. Far from it. I took over an English department with dire results in January, did the jobs of 2/3 people whilst others went off on fake sickness breaks/milked the school for pay-off settlements, and managed to get C+ results up 27%, whilst also doubling the 3 levels progress figure and increasing the 4 levels progress figure 7-fold. I've heard of the English results for a large number of the 17 schools in the area for this summer and only heard of 2 that were higher. This will be critical in ensuring the school (probably) comes out of its category soon. Obviously, I've done lots of other work too - created a new team, overhauled courses, curricula and made the department fit for purpose. It's been hard work.
Now, schools (academies, particularly) can pay you whatever they deem apt for the job you're doing. I've mentioned a couple of times to the head in the last few weeks about the department's performance (which he described to the rest of the school as "stunning" on our first training day) and whether it would be enough to qualify me jumping up more than the 3k I could expect for performing adequately. He's been very cagey about this, saying "we'll look at it" and other similar things, despite in my interview in October last year saying, when I questioned the pay package and future progress, that "if you come in and show us you're pulling up trees we'll look at it".
It's left me wondering whether I might only get the expected increase - the same increase a 7th year teacher who performed adequately as a main scale teacher in a non-core subject could expect. If I did I would, naturally, be a little disappointed, considering all the hard work I've put in and the enormous boost I've given to the school's headline performance figure.
By chance, a friend who's recently moved to another school says they are looking to recruit a Director of English (essentially, a HoD position but on the lower end of management pay and works more directly with SLT) due to poor results this summer and she says they want someone to complete overhaul the department - a job I know I can do, as I've just done it in a school in much more challenging circumstances. The pay range here is advertised as 48-52k and she says they would not necessarily start the successful candidate at the bottom of this if they could justify otherwise. For reference, my current salary is 41k without the upcoming expected 3k rise.
However, the advertising school's deadline is in a couple of weeks - before my review. Which leaves me wondering what to do
Do I mention to my current school I'm thinking of applying before the review?
Do I not apply, miss the deadline, and wait for my review? And if so, make a move from there? (Obviously, unless they don't appoint on this advertised job then I will have missed that one and will need to wait for something else appropriate, which could be up to 12 months away.)
Do I apply anyway and see if my school come up with a retention offer?
Other contextual information: I've not yet applied for the advertised job, my girlfriend is going part-time at her current job to go to university to do teacher training so as big an increase in my income as possible is preferred so as to cover that shortfall, my current school is unaware of me considering applying (though I am open to mentioning it - I've tried to approach the issue of pay with the head, after all) and I'm an examiner for the board which the new school follow, meaning I could use that experience to good effect.
Thanks for making it this far and trying to help!
First of all, I'd like to say that I'm not a Money Grabbing Bar Steward. At all. If I was, I wouldn't be in teaching. However, everyone likes to be well remunerated for their achievements. I'm in my 7th year of teaching now and I've got my pay review in the next few weeks. Historically in teaching you've just been bumped up the scale no matter what (providing you weren't basically being incompetent/in a capability procedure), including going between the main and upper pay scales, the progress between is roughly about £3k, I think. This is the point I'm at.
I'm not under any procedure, obviously. Far from it. I took over an English department with dire results in January, did the jobs of 2/3 people whilst others went off on fake sickness breaks/milked the school for pay-off settlements, and managed to get C+ results up 27%, whilst also doubling the 3 levels progress figure and increasing the 4 levels progress figure 7-fold. I've heard of the English results for a large number of the 17 schools in the area for this summer and only heard of 2 that were higher. This will be critical in ensuring the school (probably) comes out of its category soon. Obviously, I've done lots of other work too - created a new team, overhauled courses, curricula and made the department fit for purpose. It's been hard work.
Now, schools (academies, particularly) can pay you whatever they deem apt for the job you're doing. I've mentioned a couple of times to the head in the last few weeks about the department's performance (which he described to the rest of the school as "stunning" on our first training day) and whether it would be enough to qualify me jumping up more than the 3k I could expect for performing adequately. He's been very cagey about this, saying "we'll look at it" and other similar things, despite in my interview in October last year saying, when I questioned the pay package and future progress, that "if you come in and show us you're pulling up trees we'll look at it".
It's left me wondering whether I might only get the expected increase - the same increase a 7th year teacher who performed adequately as a main scale teacher in a non-core subject could expect. If I did I would, naturally, be a little disappointed, considering all the hard work I've put in and the enormous boost I've given to the school's headline performance figure.
By chance, a friend who's recently moved to another school says they are looking to recruit a Director of English (essentially, a HoD position but on the lower end of management pay and works more directly with SLT) due to poor results this summer and she says they want someone to complete overhaul the department - a job I know I can do, as I've just done it in a school in much more challenging circumstances. The pay range here is advertised as 48-52k and she says they would not necessarily start the successful candidate at the bottom of this if they could justify otherwise. For reference, my current salary is 41k without the upcoming expected 3k rise.
However, the advertising school's deadline is in a couple of weeks - before my review. Which leaves me wondering what to do
Do I mention to my current school I'm thinking of applying before the review?
Do I not apply, miss the deadline, and wait for my review? And if so, make a move from there? (Obviously, unless they don't appoint on this advertised job then I will have missed that one and will need to wait for something else appropriate, which could be up to 12 months away.)
Do I apply anyway and see if my school come up with a retention offer?
Other contextual information: I've not yet applied for the advertised job, my girlfriend is going part-time at her current job to go to university to do teacher training so as big an increase in my income as possible is preferred so as to cover that shortfall, my current school is unaware of me considering applying (though I am open to mentioning it - I've tried to approach the issue of pay with the head, after all) and I'm an examiner for the board which the new school follow, meaning I could use that experience to good effect.
Thanks for making it this far and trying to help!
The environment I work in is OK - earlier this year it was hell. It's certainly no cake walk even now. The kids at the new school are much better in terms of behaviour, according to my friend who recently started working there. I might have chance to visit the advertising school this week and talk to the head informally during an open evening.
Sounds like a good idea. The only thing I'm wary of is annoying them by applying out and them getting the reference request and subsequently deciding not to offer any more because of it.
But I guess, in which case, I wouldn't get to that position, as I'd have either left or there would have been a retention offer I'd be agreeing to?
But I guess, in which case, I wouldn't get to that position, as I'd have either left or there would have been a retention offer I'd be agreeing to?
chrisxr2 said:
Not many jobs where you get a 3k regardless of what you do in the year. As has been said though you need to see what your offered first as you may well be thinking of a dilemma that won't exist, clearly though whatever happens you aren't 100 percent happy or you wouldn't be tentatively looking anyway IMHO.
It used to be like that - rewarded for basically anything - but it's not anymore. Hence I don't want to be just palmed off with 'the norm' for securing the biggest improvement in the Borough by a country mile and certainly one of the biggest improvements in the whole region, I would think. I wouldn't have looked/noticed the job if it wasn't for the message from a friend. I get on fairly well with the head, especially since the results!
In teaching it's fairly normal for reference requests to go out at the same time as candidates are invited to interview - that way governors etc can see them during the panel interview.
Thanks very much. I'm very proud of what I've achieved given the circumstances. 46% C+ to 73% C+ inside 6 months in a department which had huge holes in will ride high on my CV for some time. I'm fairly sure it will be one of the biggest improvements in the whole of South Yorkshire, once figures are publicly released.
Is an honorarium similar to an old R&R payment?
Our policy has been changed in recent weeks and months to reflect all the new changes. They're going to be fairly rigorous with it, I think. That doesn't concern me, of course. I'm just mildly irked that I raised the issue in my original interview, have raised it with the head a couple of times in the last couple of months, and there's still no movement on the ground.
I've also had some advice saying that if my current head were to offer my more, he might require me to take on additional responsibilities. I'm very good with data/strategy/curriculum planning/co-ordination intervention whole school. And science and maths have already been to see me in the opening fortnight to seek my advice regarding these issues. So I'm also prepared for that.
I tried to speak to the head today, but he was leaving school as the bell was ringing and won't be back in until tomorrow afternoon. So I'll try again then.
Is an honorarium similar to an old R&R payment?
Our policy has been changed in recent weeks and months to reflect all the new changes. They're going to be fairly rigorous with it, I think. That doesn't concern me, of course. I'm just mildly irked that I raised the issue in my original interview, have raised it with the head a couple of times in the last couple of months, and there's still no movement on the ground.
I've also had some advice saying that if my current head were to offer my more, he might require me to take on additional responsibilities. I'm very good with data/strategy/curriculum planning/co-ordination intervention whole school. And science and maths have already been to see me in the opening fortnight to seek my advice regarding these issues. So I'm also prepared for that.
I tried to speak to the head today, but he was leaving school as the bell was ringing and won't be back in until tomorrow afternoon. So I'll try again then.
I would always tell them about the application if I went through with it - allowing someone to get a reference request without having at least politely warned them in advance is just rude. The question is whether I raise the issue before I apply, or as I do, really.
In terms of offering them extra, I would offer to take on a whole school data role.
I'm just unsure as to what is best in the long term.
In terms of offering them extra, I would offer to take on a whole school data role.
I'm just unsure as to what is best in the long term.
Interesting. May look into that. The more I think about it, though, the more I'm tempted to move on after 12 months. The department I'm in won't 'need' me as much. I've steadied the ship, the results are the highest they've ever been by miles, and I've put in place a plan to maintain them (approximately, with any luck) through a strategic combination of standard WJEC English exams and Cambridge iGCSE courses, which I didn't do last year. I've installed some good people there, though! Need to find out more about the staff at the advertising school and why they're running a school with similar numbers with 1.5 fewer English staff - can't take a job on if they won't put money or resources into it. I made that clear at my last interview that I had to effectively be given carte blanche and, mostly, they obliged, despite the horrendous situation with staffing we were in from February onwards.
Quoted in isolation? Of course. Everything is about context.
I'm a descriptivist, anyway.
SV8Predator said:
spud989 said:
I took over an English department with dire results in January,
You're an English teacher and you start with an ambiguous statement like that?I'm a descriptivist, anyway.
As reference requests are normally sent to your existing school before you arrive at the interview, it's just the done thing. Reference requests are part of the process the panel goes through pre- and post-interview, rather than being a sort of 'confirmation of the interview decision', as I gather it tends to be in the private sector.
Else otherwise you could end up in a situation where you've not asked for a reference and your head gets a request for one on a Tuesday morning saying that you're due to attend an interview on the Wednesday and could he give his thoughts. It would really annoy most of them as it would be the first they've heard of it. Then if you don't get it you've sort of shat on your own doorstep a bit.
Else otherwise you could end up in a situation where you've not asked for a reference and your head gets a request for one on a Tuesday morning saying that you're due to attend an interview on the Wednesday and could he give his thoughts. It would really annoy most of them as it would be the first they've heard of it. Then if you don't get it you've sort of shat on your own doorstep a bit.
liner33 said:
In my experience of my Local Authority recruitment, references are sought after a successful interview and before a written job offer BUT its not unusual for Headteachers to call each other and have an unofficial chat even before short listing irrespective of whether they are a referee.
I'm not suggesting for a minute that this is how things should be done but how I have seen recruitment in practice
Absolutely. Once a teacher has blackened their copybook then in some areas they'll find it difficult to get a job again. Too many people have too many people in their contacts list from training meetings etc. Of course, such unofficial networks can also work in your favour too. But I imagine most areas of employment are similar in some respects. I'm not suggesting for a minute that this is how things should be done but how I have seen recruitment in practice
Update: the school seems great. Spoken to the deputy head and assistant head at length and also had a brief word with the head. They're very keen for me to apply and I think I will. I think I now need to inform my head.
The deadline is Friday. Add that to the fact that my current school is currently expecting an Ofsted monitoring visit within the next week or two (which could well be converted into a full inspection) and things are certainly going to be hectic.
The deadline is Friday. Add that to the fact that my current school is currently expecting an Ofsted monitoring visit within the next week or two (which could well be converted into a full inspection) and things are certainly going to be hectic.
Interview on Wednesday. Lesson is planned. Written out a series of questions for the interview myself - still more things I want to know about them.
Going to see what it's like. If they want me, and I like the feel again and the answers to my questions, I'll take it. Obviously there's a few ifs there.
Current school said they'd put me up 2 jumps on pay spine instead of one. No extra responsibility or anything. Would only be just over 1k pa, though compared to the 'standard' raise. Nice to fall back on, with any luck.
Going into it all open-minded. Too many variables. And I like a bit of control! Ha
Going to see what it's like. If they want me, and I like the feel again and the answers to my questions, I'll take it. Obviously there's a few ifs there.
Current school said they'd put me up 2 jumps on pay spine instead of one. No extra responsibility or anything. Would only be just over 1k pa, though compared to the 'standard' raise. Nice to fall back on, with any luck.
Going into it all open-minded. Too many variables. And I like a bit of control! Ha
liner33 said:
Congrats mate , I take it you are going to accept? Do you need a to give a terms notice?
Thanks, folks.Already accepted! Got a slight raise within the range so I didn't have to start on the minimum too, which is good. You accept or not on-the-spot post-interview. I handed my resignation in today - if you leave at Christmas/January then you need to have resigned by (the end of) October half term, which is just over two weeks away. Only exception is headteachers, which is a full term's notice, I think.
25 miles each way to the new job, which will swallow some of the increase, but that gives me chance to enjoy the incoming TTRS more than my current 4 mile commute! Very happy, all told. Breaking it to my existing department today was very difficult, mind. They're a mixture of happy/gutted, if you believe them!
Edited by spud989 on Thursday 9th October 16:25
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